USE OF EMT's

[Dutchboy]

What is the best way to tell a formerly cerified EMT (in another state) that unless you certify in our state, you can only do Standard first aid (if your certified).  They are constantly carring around there EMT Bag.  What is considered to be the basic first aid level (differences)

[Bear Walling]

First off, research your state's policy. Then I would approach the person and inform them in the nicest way possible and offer to provide information from your state's Board of EMS on this matter.

Question: What is First Aid?

Answer: The answer to this question is not as easy as it seems. "First aid" is a catch-all phrase that refers to two distinctly different medical needs.

    * Emergency first aid is exactly that - the first response to a life-threatening (or limb-threatening) medical emergency, either an illness or an injury. More advanced medical care will happen after first aid in this case. This type of first aid includes CPR, clearing an airway obstruction, responding to anaphylactic shock, splinting a broken bone, and severe bleeding control.

    * Non-emergency first aid is the treatment we initiate ourselves for minor medical needs. We may or may not seek more advanced medical care after the initial response. This includes taking over-the-counter medications for minor pain or allergies, cleaning and bandaging cuts or abrasions, and minor bleeding control. It's the kind of thing we learned from our mother's or on the internet.

[AirAux]

EMT's have a national registry and he/she may currently be licensed by such.  Some statesaccept that and some don't.  You may want to check current CAP requirements and see if the national registry qualifies him/her for CAP.

[isuhawkeye]

If they are "presenting themselves" as an EMS provider, and they are not currently certified by that state they may be breaking the law.  If they are presenting themselves as though they were a part of an active EMS service they may have the same problem.  Depending upon the state Attorney General's opinion carrying an out bag that has the star of life on it may be enough. 

[EMT-83]

You may be creating a problem where none exists. I'd be curious to know just what's inside the "EMT bag" that he carries. If it's basic stuff, no problem. Meds and advanced supplies are a different story. Maybe it's where he carries his lunch. Where does he carry it - in his car, or walking around the squadron?

Despite what you may think, you don't need to be certified in first aid to stop bleeding or splint a fracture. This guy might be handy to have around in an emergency. I know lots of former EMTs who are burned out, but still have their skills.

An frank discussion about his intentions is in order. From what little I know of the situation, it sounds like he's been honest about his situation. Make sure that he knows that he's on his own, and won't be covered by NHQ or anyone else if something goes wrong.

[Flying Pig]

I would say mind your own business unless there is more to the story your not telling us.  Exactly what is it he is doing wrong?  He he bothering anyone?  Maybe he's just a nerd who waiting for his chance to shine.  Im sure nobody here has ever been accused of that.

[N Harmon]

What is the best way to tell a formerly cerified EMT (in another state) that unless you certify in our state, you can only do Standard first aid (if your certified).

By becoming a member of your state's EMS board. Beyond that, why should you care?

[RiverAux]

Depends on whether this is a CAP-related issue or not. 

[Stonewall]

Just because someone is an EMT and performing duties as a GTM/GTL for CAP, does not automatically mean one must forget the advanced medical skills they possess.

Same if someone is no longer current.  It doesn't mean you've forgotten all of the skills, it means you are no longer qualified.

I compare it to the fact that I was a life guard as a teenager.  I learned how to rescue someone in the water.  If I see someone having some issues in the water and needs saving, I'm not going to let them drown because I am no longer certified as a life guard through USLA.

[CadetProgramGuy]

CAPR 60-3

1-21f. First Aid and Emergency Medical Care. CAP is not an emergency medical care or paramedic organization and should not advertise itself as such. CAP will not be the primary provider of medical support on missions or training events though qualified personnel can be used to support such activities. The only type of medical aid that should be administered by CAP personnel or by any other person at CAP's request is reasonable first aid deemed necessary to save a life or prevent human suffering and executed by a person qualified to attempt such medical care within their skill level.

[sparks]

If a state licensed EMT and CAP member was conducting CAP business but was put in a position where using the EMT skills became necessary I guess that person would have to declare "I'm not CAP" to be legal. Of course saving lives trumps some regulatory limits.

Maybe this is similar to flying law enforcement personnel in aircraft who are also CAP members. It's required they declare what function they are performing before the flight to avoid any confusionin particular when they are armed.

[arajca]

If it's a life saving issue, the last line in the paragraph covers it. No need to declare anything. If it's a comfort issue, that's a different issue.

[Flying Pig]

If a state licensed EMT and CAP member was conducting CAP business but was put in a position where using the EMT skills became necessary I guess that person would have to declare "I'm not CAP" to be legal. Of course saving lives trumps some regulatory limits.

Maybe this is similar to flying law enforcement personnel in aircraft who are also CAP members. It's required they declare what function they are performing before the flight to avoid any confusionin particular when they are armed.

[/b][/i]

Huh?  Where did you get that?  If I have my gun strapped to my hip, I think we can all assume Im not there in a CAP capacity.

[RiverAux]

That and the fact that you wouldn't be in a CAP uniform....

[Flying Pig]

Next time I do a CD flight Im going to show up in my CAP flight suit with my shoulder rig and just declare Im a CAP member and I should be OK then right?

[RiverAux]

According to some

[SJFedor]

What is the best way to tell a formerly cerified EMT (in another state) that unless you certify in our state, you can only do Standard first aid (if your certified).  They are constantly carring around there EMT Bag.  What is considered to be the basic first aid level (differences)

I'd encourage him to renew his EMT cert in the current state, but beyond that, it's not illegal to provide EMT-B level care even if you're not certified in the state you're standing in, while in an emergency situation. The only time one needs to be certified in the state you're in is if you're working with a service that utilizes you primarily as an EMT, and that person is approved by the service medical director.

EMT-B's are BLS (basic life support) providers. They (we) are taught basic airway management skills, bleeding control, immobilization, etc skills. No surgical or interventional procedures, unless their service or state authorizes it. So essentially, they're not going to be able to do anything that REALLY puts CAP at a liability, like starting IVs or doing surgical crics.

I'd tell him there's not really a need to be carrying his jump bag everywhere, but other than that, if something does happen, be glad he's there. He'll be able to render more competent care as a current or former EMT than your run-of-the-mill first aid qualified member until EMS can get there.

Steve
Big City EMT-B

[Dutchboy]

What is the best way to tell a formerly cerified EMT (in another state) that unless you certify in our state, you can only do Standard first aid (if your certified).  They are constantly carring around there EMT Bag.  What is considered to be the basic first aid level (differences)

I'd encourage him to renew his EMT cert in the current state, but beyond that, it's not illegal to provide EMT-B level care even if you're not certified in the state you're standing in, while in an emergency situation. The only time one needs to be certified in the state you're in is if you're working with a service that utilizes you primarily as an EMT, and that person is approved by the service medical director.

Just for Reference where does it state it is not illegal to provide EMT-B level care outside of being apart of a medical controlling agency?

[arajca]

I advise you contact your wing legal officer, if this involves CAP.

Something I have seen a SOME Good Sam laws is a provision to provide care up to your level of TRAINING, not CERTIFICATION. In theory, if you've been a paramedic, but have let your cert slip, you would still be expected to perform up to the paramedic level, taking into account the equipment/situation, if you decide to help.

[wuzafuzz]

What is the best way to tell a formerly cerified EMT (in another state) that unless you certify in our state, you can only do Standard first aid (if your certified).  They are constantly carring around there EMT Bag.  What is considered to be the basic first aid level (differences)

I'd encourage him to renew his EMT cert in the current state, but beyond that, it's not illegal to provide EMT-B level care even if you're not certified in the state you're standing in, while in an emergency situation. The only time one needs to be certified in the state you're in is if you're working with a service that utilizes you primarily as an EMT, and that person is approved by the service medical director.

Just for Reference where does it state it is not illegal to provide EMT-B level care outside of being apart of a medical controlling agency?

Generally speaking, you don't need a law saying "it's OK."  If it's not spelled out somewhere as being illegal or against regulations, you are good to go.  We don't live by permission of Big Brother, requiring explicit approval for all the actions we might want to take.  Potential civil liability is an entirely different animal.

[JayT]

I advise you contact your wing legal officer, if this involves CAP.

Something I have seen a SOME Good Sam laws is a provision to provide care up to your level of TRAINING, not CERTIFICATION. In theory, if you've been a paramedic, but have let your cert slip, you would still be expected to perform up to the paramedic level, taking into account the equipment/situation, if you decide to help.

That's a really dicey area. Using that logic of the law, why bother recerting at all? Just keep showing up and saying "I'm still trained, and it just so happens I have a larygoscope, an ATV, and a size seven ET tube here!"

A lot of the stuff that EMT-B level isn't really that far beyond first aid, which is why I would be curious what he's carrying in that bag that's causing such an issue. It's only when you get into some of the more advanced EMT-B skills that I would see could cause a legal headache (Eppie pens, Albuterol, ASA, glucose, Activated Charcoal, Combitube/King AW and the like.)

[arajca]

That's why the FIRST line is to contact the wing legal officer.

I do agree that the training vs cert issue is problematic, although I have only seen it in SOME Good Sam laws. If you are a professional (paid or volunteer), you still need to maintain the cert.

[Eclipse]

IANAL, but have had to address this issue repeatedly for encampments and other large activities.

If your medical plan is to call 9-1-1 for anything beyond a blister or bruise, someone has a grabber, and
an EMT who happens to be a staffer performs life-saving care on that person (while waiting for the pros) within their training, you're probably going to be fine.

However, if your medical plan includes things like "medical flights", "triage facilities" and/or has cadets running around with stethoscopes or some of the other nonsense that we see go on in some CAP activities, and you delay professional care while a CAP person diagnoses the same heart attack, or worse, decides that situation is just gas and sends the member back to work, you're on less than thin ice if they die or are permanently disabled.

In 99% of the cases, any activity that is so remote as to require a medical staff needs to be reconsidered.  Any activity where CAP is acting as the medical staff for an outside party or the general public (i.e. airshows, etc.) is a violation of regulations.

This is what needs to be explained to the member in question.  If they choose to disengage, so be it, at least they won't lose their house trying to help someone, and if providing medical care is why they joined CAP, they are wasting their time anyway.

[Lt Oliv]

This is what needs to be explained to the member in question.  If they choose to disengage, so be it, at least they won't lose their house trying to help someone, and if providing medical care is why they joined CAP, they are wasting their time anyway.

Well put.  There are plenty of volunteer fire departments that I'm sure would LOVE to pay for him to recert and have him carry around his bag for them. 

I have seen too many EMTs (current and former) who are chomping at the bit to do something heroic. I'm afraid to cough near them because they might jam a pen in my trachea.  If you have the skills and someone right then and there requires immediate medical attention, your guy can be a great resource.  But if he thinks he's setting up his own little MASH unit on encampment, you might be better off without him in the long run.

EDIT:  I also saw a mention of an eppie pen.  Is there any legal requirement for someone to be carrying those?  I've heard of school teachers having them on hand if they have a kid with a known allergy.  Always sounded like kind of a gray area to me.

[Major Lord]

I think the real issue is whether the CAP member is operating outside of his scope of practice. In my State, an EMT-B can't do anything beyond what a private citizen can do, although they are specifically trained in a number of tasks outside the normal first aid realm ( The mostly-outdated MAST trousers, administering oxygen, shutting off IV's, traction splints,  etc) If your guy is practicing medicine" in CAP, the problem is probaly not his certification, but his sanity. You can tell him though that there is no EMT badge for him he is not currently certified in the State in which  he is a member. If he is carrying a sternal saw or a bunch of morphine is his jump kit, you need to send the problem up the chain of command. If he maintains a well stocked jump kit, I say "good for him!"  There are some medical supplies that although he may never use, if he ( or a higher-quaified medical professional needs) when the merde' hits the ventilateur, it could save your life. Like a pistol, there are some things you don't need until you need badly.

Major Lord

[RiverAux]

mess, are you going to clarify whether or not this is a CAP issue?  Your first post wasn't clear about that. 

[Dutchboy]

Sir, I just figured this was a CAP related site and it would be thought of as a CAP issue. Yes it is a CAP ISSUE

[Dutchboy]

They also have had in the past dispensed over the counter drugs to a cadet from what I have heard. I always thought that was a no no. Is it a no no?  if the member had their kid join, would they be able to administer Over the counter drugs to their son that is a cadet?

[CadetProgramGuy]

They also have had in the past dispensed over the counter drugs to a cadet from what I have heard. I always thought that was a no no. Is it a no no?  if the member had their kid join, would they be able to administer Over the counter drugs to their son that is a cadet?

OTC drugs needs parental permission.  Otherwise would be opening up to liability issues.

[JayT]

They also have had in the past dispensed over the counter drugs to a cadet from what I have heard. I always thought that was a no no. Is it a no no?  if the member had their kid join, would they be able to administer Over the counter drugs to their son that is a cadet?

That's a big big big no no, unless it's a Parent/Child relationship.

[Eclipse]

They also have had in the past dispensed over the counter drugs to a cadet from what I have heard. I always thought that was a no no. Is it a no no?  if the member had their kid join, would they be able to administer Over the counter drugs to their son that is a cadet?

That's a big big big no no, unless it's a Parent/Child relationship.

Roger that times 2.

In no case does CAP prescribe or dispense.  Even in cases where meds are being secured by staff during encampments and similar activities, that staff is simply securing the drugs from being abused, and facilitating / confirming the cadet is taking them per the dosage indicated on the container.

In those cases there is no requirement the person doing the facilitation is even a medical professional.

[John Bryan]

This is what needs to be explained to the member in question.  If they choose to disengage, so be it, at least they won't lose their house trying to help someone, and if providing medical care is why they joined CAP, they are wasting their time anyway.

Well put.  There are plenty of volunteer fire departments that I'm sure would LOVE to pay for him to recert and have him carry around his bag for them. 

I have seen too many EMTs (current and former) who are chomping at the bit to do something heroic. I'm afraid to cough near them because they might jam a pen in my trachea.  If you have the skills and someone right then and there requires immediate medical attention, your guy can be a great resource.  But if he thinks he's setting up his own little MASH unit on encampment, you might be better off without him in the long run.

EDIT:  I also saw a mention of an eppie pen.  Is there any legal requirement for someone to be carrying those?  I've heard of school teachers having them on hand if they have a kid with a known allergy.  Always sounded like kind of a gray area to me.

1. Helping someone administer their own epi pen and inhaler is now a basic first aid skill taught by the American Red Cross.

2. How is this topic about safety...seems this is a legal debate

3. CAP's fear to use medical folks is interesting. What about Medical Units under the Logistics section in ICS?  CAP has directed us to follow NIMS and yet we don't provide this support to our members at large missions/events.

[N Harmon]

What about Medical Units under the Logistics section in ICS?  CAP has directed us to follow NIMS and yet we don't provide this support to our members at large missions/events.

Following NIMS doesn't mean we have to contribute every type of unit, just that we know where we fit in the ICS and type our resources appropriately.

[davidsinn]

This is what needs to be explained to the member in question.  If they choose to disengage, so be it, at least they won't lose their house trying to help someone, and if providing medical care is why they joined CAP, they are wasting their time anyway.

Well put.  There are plenty of volunteer fire departments that I'm sure would LOVE to pay for him to recert and have him carry around his bag for them. 

I have seen too many EMTs (current and former) who are chomping at the bit to do something heroic. I'm afraid to cough near them because they might jam a pen in my trachea.  If you have the skills and someone right then and there requires immediate medical attention, your guy can be a great resource.  But if he thinks he's setting up his own little MASH unit on encampment, you might be better off without him in the long run.

EDIT:  I also saw a mention of an eppie pen.  Is there any legal requirement for someone to be carrying those?  I've heard of school teachers having them on hand if they have a kid with a known allergy.  Always sounded like kind of a gray area to me.

1. Helping someone administer their own epi pen and inhaler is now a basic first aid skill taught by the American Red Cross.

2. How is this topic about safety...seems this is a legal debate

3. CAP's fear to use medical folks is interesting. What about Medical Units under the Logistics section in ICS?  CAP has directed us to follow NIMS and yet we don't provide this support to our members at large missions/events.

I took the ARC course with you and you did teach us to use epi pens. But when I got to RST for GLRSE, Eclipse told us that if we were to stick someone with an epi pen we were violating IL law.

[Thom]

I took the ARC course with you and you did teach us to use epi pens. But when I got to RST for GLRSE, Eclipse told us that if we were to stick someone with an epi pen we were violating IL law.

And, there you have the crux of the problem.

Another poster above (I'm sorry, I'm not going to try and untangle that nested mass of quotes...) said that this was sounding more like a LEGAL issue now than a SAFETY issue.  Unfortunately, it is both.

CAP tries to implement SAFETY to protect our Members and Resources, and hopefully accomplish the Mission.  Part of Safety is utilizing CAP personnel who, in their non-CAP lives, have acquired Medical skills, training, and certification.

HOWEVER, the actual use of those skills is always governed not only by CAP's restrictions/admonishments, but by the governing law of the location where care is given.  Usually, this means State laws in the US.

Currently each and every State in the US has their own laws regarding most Medical treatments, resulting in plenty of situations where a simple treatment that is legal and proper in one State is treated as 'practicing medicine without a license' in another State.  And, this is just the Criminal Law side of things.  The differences in Civil Law, who can be sued for doing (or NOT doing...) what, varies also by State, and sometimes locality.

Yikes!  I hate these legal/medical furballs.

If you really want to know what you (or anyone else) can or cannot do in a given State or Locality, my suggestion would be to have Wing reach out to a Legal Officer who can try to get you some definitive guidance.  They should have the capability to research and give you the basic do's and don'ts of Medical treatment in any given State.  Does anyone have any more specific/correct guidance than that?

Good Luck!

Thom Hamilton

[D2SK]

This is what needs to be explained to the member in question.  If they choose to disengage, so be it, at least they won't lose their house trying to help someone, and if providing medical care is why they joined CAP, they are wasting their time anyway.

Well put.  There are plenty of volunteer fire departments that I'm sure would LOVE to pay for him to recert and have him carry around his bag for them. 

I have seen too many EMTs (current and former) who are chomping at the bit to do something heroic. I'm afraid to cough near them because they might jam a pen in my trachea.  If you have the skills and someone right then and there requires immediate medical attention, your guy can be a great resource.  But if he thinks he's setting up his own little MASH unit on encampment, you might be better off without him in the long run.

EDIT:  I also saw a mention of an eppie pen.  Is there any legal requirement for someone to be carrying those?  I've heard of school teachers having them on hand if they have a kid with a known allergy.  Always sounded like kind of a gray area to me.

1. Helping someone administer their own epi pen and inhaler is now a basic first aid skill taught by the American Red Cross.

2. How is this topic about safety...seems this is a legal debate

3. CAP's fear to use medical folks is interesting. What about Medical Units under the Logistics section in ICS?  CAP has directed us to follow NIMS and yet we don't provide this support to our members at large missions/events.

I took the ARC course with you and you did teach us to use epi pens. But when I got to RST for GLRSE, Eclipse told us that if we were to stick someone with an epi pen we were violating IL law.

Perhaps one day Illinois will become part of America.  If I am in anaphylactic shock and dying, please stick me with an epi pen. I don't care if IL thinks it is a crime or not.

The best thing to come out of Illinois is 35-South.

[Eclipse]

I took the ARC course with you and you did teach us to use epi pens. But when I got to RST for GLRSE, Eclipse told us that if we were to stick someone with an epi pen we were violating IL law.

I honestly don't recall that conversation.

[Thom]

What about Medical Units under the Logistics section in ICS?  CAP has directed us to follow NIMS and yet we don't provide this support to our members at large missions/events.

Following NIMS doesn't mean we have to contribute every type of unit, just that we know where we fit in the ICS and type our resources appropriately.

BINGO!!!  Someone was paying attention to what NIMS/ICS does for us.

Before, in a large Disaster scenario, you would have exactly what John Bryan suggested, each Entity involved would provide every service for themselves, with their own Transport, Medical, Air Ops, Logistics, etc.  You might, literally, have had 3 Aid Stations set up within sight of each other, to treat members of 3 different Entities.

Now, the single IC can say that Air Ops will be CAP, Medical will be the local EMS, Ground will be the local Sheriff's SAR, etc.  (I'm grossly simplifying there, but it makes the point.)

Now, each Entity can interrelate and interact with the other Entities, without needing to provide EVERY possible service for themselves.  Each Entity providing any sort of function can be counted on to participate in the overall ICS chain of command.  Well, ideally.

And, each Entity can focus on providing ONLY those Resources that it specializes in.  The local EMS and Disaster Triage teams from the local Hospitals will likely be tasked with Medical support, so that CAP, the local Sheriff, ARC, etc. do not have to provide trained, licensed Medical Professionals.  Similarly, CAP provides the Air Ops aerial observation capability, so that the local Sheriff's Office doesn't need to have their own aerial capability, which many still lack.

In short (too late), we don't need to have ALL the pieces anymore.  We just need to know WHICH pieces we have, and how they fit with everyone else's pieces.  ICS/NIMS may suck, but it sucks much less than the alternative chaos.

Thom Hamilton

[heliodoc]

And if CAP wants to REALLLY be in the arena of true first responders...

It may need to rethink and start complying with State laws regarding this subject. 

"SAFETY", Wanting DHS missions, wanting to be recognized by Congress to do DHS type missions and what not to get CAP into the forefront of more response type missions, may need to have those CAP legal types back at the drawing board 'cuz when the day comes.... if CAP wants to play with the BIG boyz, then it is time it reevaluates itself in this arena of EMT issues.  Wanna play? get certified.  Maybe there is some Wing training money to help the members who want to retain EMT at the Sqdn level.

This round and round about EMT's in CAP sure gets threaded ALOT.  Time for CAP to get with the real world of EM response, kick the "INC" out of CAP and really roll with the real world rather than reading alot of pontification...

Simple....maintain State and federal currency per those  regs  and keep them current and then let the lawyers sort it out.......OH WAIT....they already did....so sorry CAP ....sit by the sidelines and tell your folks they are not useful or needed when they do have the REAL licenses not "CAP licenses"

[John Bryan]

What about Medical Units under the Logistics section in ICS?  CAP has directed us to follow NIMS and yet we don't provide this support to our members at large missions/events.

Following NIMS doesn't mean we have to contribute every type of unit, just that we know where we fit in the ICS and type our resources appropriately.

BINGO!!!  Someone was paying attention to what NIMS/ICS does for us.

Before, in a large Disaster scenario, you would have exactly what John Bryan suggested, each Entity involved would provide every service for themselves, with their own Transport, Medical, Air Ops, Logistics, etc.  You might, literally, have had 3 Aid Stations set up within sight of each other, to treat members of 3 different Entities.

Now, the single IC can say that Air Ops will be CAP, Medical will be the local EMS, Ground will be the local Sheriff's SAR, etc.  (I'm grossly simplifying there, but it makes the point.)

Now, each Entity can interrelate and interact with the other Entities, without needing to provide EVERY possible service for themselves.  Each Entity providing any sort of function can be counted on to participate in the overall ICS chain of command.  Well, ideally.

And, each Entity can focus on providing ONLY those Resources that it specializes in.  The local EMS and Disaster Triage teams from the local Hospitals will likely be tasked with Medical support, so that CAP, the local Sheriff, ARC, etc. do not have to provide trained, licensed Medical Professionals.  Similarly, CAP provides the Air Ops aerial observation capability, so that the local Sheriff's Office doesn't need to have their own aerial capability, which many still lack.

In short (too late), we don't need to have ALL the pieces anymore.  We just need to know WHICH pieces we have, and how they fit with everyone else's pieces.  ICS/NIMS may suck, but it sucks much less than the alternative chaos.

Thom Hamilton

Well this is off topic but what they heck......we dont use most of the ICS/NIMS system. We have one thing in CAP we certify under LG and that CUL.  CAP's use or lack of use of ICS/NIMS is another topic so I wont drag this too far, except to say read most SAR EVAL reports and you will find its mission (incident) management we fail at the most.

As for the epi pen breaking the law.....I will check with our ARC chapter but I have never heard that before. Our chapter is just outside Chicago (in Indiana) and this is the first I have heard of this.

[Thom]

Well this is off topic but what they heck......we dont use most of the ICS/NIMS system. We have one thing in CAP we certify under LG and that CUL.  CAP's use or lack of use of ICS/NIMS is another topic so I wont drag this too far, except to say read most SAR EVAL reports and you will find its mission (incident) management we fail at the most.

FYI: I snipped a rather large quoted block above, read the earlier posts if this doesn't make sense to anyone...

John, when I composed my post to which you responded, I originally wrote a rather lengthy bit about how CAP is among the Worst organizations in terms of adopting ICS/NIMS.  I edited it out to keep the thread on track.  And, because that horse is on life support.

But, I believe you are entirely correct.  CAP has not yet truly changed its model to one compliant with ICS/NIMS.  I am sure that this will happen, probably slowly and painfully over the course of a few more years.  And, I believe that truly integrating ICS/NIMS, with all of its wonderful useless overhead, will help prevent us from making some egregious errors in Incident Management.  Structure has a way of keeping you on track, just like in-flight checklists.

But, in the meantime, we can at least 'translate' our CAP language to ICS speak when dealing with other agencies in larger response situations.  And, we can ask for their resources using a language they understand.

Thom Hamilton

[flyerthom]

What is the best way to tell a formerly cerified EMT (in another state) that unless you certify in our state, you can only do Standard first aid (if your certified).  They are constantly carring around there EMT Bag.  What is considered to be the basic first aid level (differences)

How blatant is the bag?

Verify his credentials with the previous state. When I was doing volley EMS I met more than one umm individual who had would show off his portable Operating Suite in the trunk of his $300 dollar car before that person had certified in Basic Life Support.

I've also met more than one person on accident scenes  who claimed to be an ER nurse and when a credential check was done turned out to be a CNA at the local nursing home.

Stolen Valor isn't just for the military.

[Eclipse]

This has nothing to do with proper implementation of ICS. This is about what CAP, as an organization, and with direction from its big brother service, has decided to make its mission.

We don't put out fires, we don't enforce the law, and we don't provide first response medical care.  In fact, despite the fact that many states and agencies have us listed as such, we are not a first response agency at all, except within the narrow bounds of ELT's.

In everything else we do...everything...we are the second or third call people make, not the first.
There is no golden hour in CAP.

There are any number of organizations which do the above who would be happy to have additional help, assuming you're qualified to provide it.

You will lose access to some of the unique opportunities afforded by CAP, and be presented with others.

There is no agency in this country which is all things to all people, and few that offer as diverse a list of opportunities as CAP. 

Embrace that and flourish. Or don't, your call, but accept the reality of the situation.

As to the original question - inform the member of the situation, and his limitations within it.  If he chooses to continue to carry stomach staples, and DNA extraction kits, that's his call - just make sure no one lets him actually use them in a CAP uniform.

[davidsinn]

I took the ARC course with you and you did teach us to use epi pens. But when I got to RST for GLRSE, Eclipse told us that if we were to stick someone with an epi pen we were violating IL law.

I honestly don't recall that conversation.

Probably because it was such a minor thing for you since you're from Illinois. It really struck my wife and I because it's a rather stupid law and counter to what were where used to back home. The solution was to put the pen in their hand and "help" them to stick themselves.

[arajca]

As an EMT-B in CO, I have the same restriction. The USDOT sets allowable practices for each level, but individual states can limit those practices - however, they cannot add to them. Additionally, individual systems can further restrict what is allowed. 

[isuhawkeye]

That's not entirley correct. 

The state of Iowa uses the EMT-I (99) curriculum and test, but expands their scope of practice.  they like to call them paramedics too.