NCO development: Is there a specific program?

[Hawk200]

When it comes to NCOs, is there work on a specific progression for them?
Unique requirements?

[JohhnyD]

Are there recruiting materials? Welcome materials? Does the NCO program even still exist?

[Jester]

The program does still exist, and we've added a couple hundred in the last few years (last number I saw was around 320 total).  Recruiting materials from the national level have failed to materialize, but I know several wings/regions creating their own. 

As far as the progression goes, we're working on it.  The new E&T program has several NCO-focused modules, and there's some stuff in the works regarding how to employ us.

Our appointment and promotion structure is still more restrictive than the officer track, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

[Private Investigator]

When it comes to NCOs, is there work on a specific progression for them?
Unique requirements?

Look at the latest CAPF2 (AUG 2014) To make TSgt = Level II; MSgt = Level III; SMSgt = Level IV and CMSgt = Level V.

Every Specialty Track except Command can be achieved by a NCO.

[Fubar]

There is a big top-down push to assign NCOs into a variety of "NCO Duty Positions" at the squadron, group, wing, and region levels. When you ask up the chain why this is such an urgent matter and what exactly are these NCOs supposed to do in these positions, the only answer I've heard is, "Uh... NCO stuff? Don't worry about it, just appoint them."

The officer and NCO grades are actually irrelevant in the big picture, both are "Senior Members" first, which is the actual job description. The rest of it is just for cosplay.

[Capt Thompson]

When it comes to NCOs, is there work on a specific progression for them?
Unique requirements?

Look at the latest CAPF2 (AUG 2014) To make TSgt = Level II; MSgt = Level III; SMSgt = Level IV and CMSgt = Level V.

Every Specialty Track except Command can be achieved by a NCO.

If I'm not mistaken, you can actually move from the NCO grades to equivalent Officer grades in order to take on a Command position, and then move back to an NCO grade after correct?

[kcebnaes]

Yep, that's correct.

[JohhnyD]

Where can we find more info? What is the point of the NCO program and has anyone done a pros and cons analytic?

[arajca]

There are several lengthy discussions here on the NCO program. As far as what's the point, there's an official answer (I forget what it is), then there's reality. I haven't seen a analysis, but I haven't looked for one.

Opinions differ, but basically fall into to two categories - "Solution looking for problem" and "An outstanding way to take advantage of the unique skills NCOs bring".

Personally, I thinks it's a feel good thing for some members since, unlike the military, CAP does not have NCO only or Officer only (excluding command) jobs. CAP just has jobs that need to be done regardless of what grade or lack thereof you're wearing.

[Stonewall]

At the last wing conference I attended in 2019 (not my wing) there was a breakout session to discuss the NCO corps, how it works and its purpose.

Literally, the strongest stance pro-NCO program advocates could bring to that table was "NCOs get stuff done" and "it allows us to capitalize on military NCOs expertise."

So, I'm a CMSgt in my real life and a Lt Col in my CAP life. So what I apparently bring to that table from my military experience is only valid if I enter into CAP's NCO corps?

Someone said it before, we are all senior members first, and our assigned rank is secondary at best. What I bring to the table is irrelevant when it comes to the rank I wear on my collar or sleeves.

Someone also said "a solution looking for a problem." I agree with that.

[Holding Pattern]

So, I'm a CMSgt in my real life and a Lt Col in my CAP life. So what I apparently bring to that table from my military experience is only valid if I enter into CAP's NCO corps?

I'll put it this way. If I see a CAP officer I don't know much about them based on their rank other than their ability to check certain boxes. If I see a CAP NCO I know they were prior military service and have at least some training and skills to bring to the table that a CAP officer of any rank may or may not have.

Some of the things I've seen CAP officers do have made me overall less impressed with the overall officer program.

The NCOs while new and with a smaller pool of people haven't disappointed me yet.

[Eclipse]

If I see a CAP NCO I know they were prior military service

That's it. That's all you know.

Being prior military does not automatically make you an asset to CAP, and often brings attitudes and
ideas that run counter to CAP's process and mission.  BTDT

And as Stonewall and others say on repeat every time this comes up, being an NCO
does not give you force powers in regards to CAP, nor the cadets, nor does it provide
for any other service, duty, or station that a CAP officer can't perform, in fact quite the reverse.

It's also humorous that some of the people who are most vehement about how
"CAP is! not! the! military!", also espouse members of the military as being CAP's saviors.

Math is hard.

[JohhnyD]

Every Specialty Track except Command can be achieved by a NCO.

I do not think Chaplain can be an NCO, no?

[Private Investigator]

Every Specialty Track except Command can be achieved by a NCO.

I do not think Chaplain can be an NCO, no?

Chaplain has always been commissioned officers.

[Private Investigator]

... The officer and NCO grades are actually irrelevant in the big picture, both are "Senior Members" first, which is the actual job description. The rest of it is just for cosplay.

Whatever you do in CAP, if its fun and rewarding, you will stay in. So thru the years I did a variety of assignments.

Now the cosplay. Some of us like to wear the USAF uniform, others just the polo and then the fans of the aviator shirt. Now we have another option. For example you can be a Chief Master Sergeant and/or a Lieutenant Colonel. I am for whatever makes that volunteer a happy volunteer.   

[Stonewall]

I'll put it this way. If I see a CAP officer I don't know much about them based on their rank other than their ability to check certain boxes. If I see a CAP NCO I know they were prior military service and have at least some training and skills to bring to the table that a CAP officer of any rank may or may not have.

Some of the things I've seen CAP officers do have made me overall less impressed with the overall officer program.

The NCOs while new and with a smaller pool of people haven't disappointed me yet.

This is bad. Really bad.

When you see an NCO you KNOW they bring something to the table? Judging books by their cover? Not very NCO of you. That's like hiring someone based on their resume without ever interviewing or speaking to them.

Many, MANY of the officers in CAP are in fact former NCOs. In fact, many more are officers in CAP than the NCO corps. I guess they aren't contributing to their fullest unless they revert to the NCO ranks? I guarantee you that what I bring to CAP's table has a whole lot more to do with being in CAP for 33 years, 29 as a Senior Member, than my 26 years in the military where I've served in two branches, both as NCOs.

Look, I appreciate that some senior members may feel "unworthy" of being labeled an officer, albeit in CAP, but we aren't portraying ourselves as military officers, we are officers in CAP. I'd be happy to be in the program if there were no formal rank structure, but I think it helps. An NCO rank structure may have its place, but no one has yet to convince me of its relevancy.

[Brit_in_CAP]

Look, I appreciate that some senior members may feel "unworthy" of being labeled an officer, albeit in CAP, but we aren't portraying ourselves as military officers, we are officers in CAP. I'd be happy to be in the program if there were no formal rank structure, but I think it helps. An NCO rank structure may have its place, but no one has yet to convince me of its relevancy.

Agree on all points.  Solution looking for a problem, like several other initiatives I've encountered.

[TheSkyHornet]

NCOs bring the "Ooh" and "Ahh" for some people, since they're blinding by military thingies whilst in a paramilitary organization.

There is zero difference as to what an NCO can do in CAP versus an officer. In fact, being a NCO is more restrictive. But in most cases, the it's titular only with no distinction other than knowing that this individual has a military background.

Military backgrounds and NCOs are fairly different "things" in CAP. A military background brings about a certain way of doing things and a different perspective in an operational environment (particularly in training) that maybe non-military don't have. It's not always the case. But it can bring in some use, particularly when it comes to Cadet Programs, which is much more military-like than the "rest" of CAP. NCOs...well, it's really just an insignia. That's kind of it. Yes, one brings about the other, but we get into the whole "What if they were a military officer? How about that experience?" and so forth.

I had an NCO as my assistant in Cadet Programs. We were a perfect pair, and became best buds on the outside. I joined and became a Second Lieutenant. He joined and became a Second Lieutenant. When the regulations changed, he switched to Staff Sergeant because he felt like it worked for him. He had the enlisted background and could employ that mindset, whereas he admitted that strategic planning was not his forte (so leave it to me). But that's a rarity that this duo exists. You can take two officers and do the same thing, but you have to match personalities and teaching techniques.

We focus so much on terminology and not enough training/work intent.

I want to employ someone to work alongside me who can tactically apply my training format. I want someone who can provide direct instruction and mentor junior grades on front line subject matter that requires technical proficiency while I distant planning and monitor the overall effectiveness of the program. Call these people NCOs, officers, warrants, whatever the heck you choose to call them and put on them whatever shiny things they wear on their collar or patches on their sleeve. But I need these people to help perform that role. And I find it increasingly difficult to find these individuals because that's not what we produce for the most part.

[Holding Pattern]

I'll put it this way. If I see a CAP officer I don't know much about them based on their rank other than their ability to check certain boxes. If I see a CAP NCO I know they were prior military service and have at least some training and skills to bring to the table that a CAP officer of any rank may or may not have.

Some of the things I've seen CAP officers do have made me overall less impressed with the overall officer program.

The NCOs while new and with a smaller pool of people haven't disappointed me yet.

This is bad. Really bad.

When you see an NCO you KNOW they bring something to the table? Judging books by their cover? Not very NCO of you.

Good thing I'm not a NCO.

It may be bad for me to look at things this way but the reality is that CAP has a horrible leadership problem and the NCO portion of the program so far seems to have far less of it.

I've written my screed on leadership and got responses that include "We don't think this is a problem." Well, that means I hold all CAP officers to a lower standard thereby until proven otherwise. Even more when people simply treat CAP officers as "cosplay."

Well, I consider prior service to be more than "cosplay." Perhaps if CAP members stop this self-degradation I'll gain more respect for them in their actions. Until then.



And yes, it is bad. But that is what the current leadership has gotten us.

[AirDX]

The NCOs while new and with a smaller pool of people haven't disappointed me yet.

CAP NCOs haven't disappointed me either. Because I have never seen one in the wild. Ever.

Prior military or not, the only status I care about in CAP is whether or not some individual is one of the 10% in the unit that actually does work, or is just another empty shirt. And that has nothing to do grade, rank, status, prior military or how much bling you bring to the table.