Long hair in the Civil Air Patrol?

[Cowanthunder]

Hi everyone,
I am interested in the CAP and had a question.

I am a male and have very neatly kept hair that is past my shoulders.  I wash it regularly and it's never greasy or not presentable.  I wear it pulled back at work and I work in a professional environment at LexisNexis.  It is not a problem there and was wondering the requirements for the CAP.  I keep a very small mustache too but can stay clean shaven on the rest of my face. 


I appreciate any input on this topic.

Thanks,

Deia

[Eclipse]

Not an issue in regards to membership.

There are several uniform variants which allow for long hair, these are referred to as the "Corporate" combinations, including a blue BDU-like field uniform, blue flight suit, blue utility jumpsuit, aviator "whites", and a blazer uniform for more formal occasions.

The USAF combination and new(er) Corporate Service uniform would not be options for long hair or facial hair.

[davidsinn]

Hi everyone,
I am interested in the CAP and had a question.

I am a male and have very neatly kept hair that is past my shoulders.  I wash it regularly and it's never greasy or not presentable.  I wear it pulled back at work and I work in a professional environment at LexisNexis.  It is not a problem there and was wondering the requirements for the CAP.  I keep a very small mustache too but can stay clean shaven on the rest of my face. 


I appreciate any input on this topic.

Thanks,

Deia

If you only wear a corporate style uniform (excepting the CSU or "blue and whites") such as the polo, white and grays, blazer, blue BDU, blue utility or blue flight suit it's not a problem at all. Should you wish to wear ANY USAF style uniform then you  must cut your hair per M39-1(last page) The mustache is not a problem in any of the corporate uniforms except CSU. If you wear the CSU or any AF style uniform then the facial hair must comply with the last page of 39-1. A mustache is allowed it just must meet certain requirements.

Welcome aboard. I suggest you take notes there's a lot to learn.

edit: Eclipse beat me to it.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^What he said.^^

You'll find all sorts of uniforms and hairstyles in the CAP.

It sounds like you're a professional, and that's one thing CAP needs.

I think the two main stipulations are that you have to wear a uniform when working with cadets, and on flying missions (correction gladly accepted from others knowing more than I).  Like Eclipse said, the "Corporate" uniforms, except for the blue/white one, are all acceptable.

Have you found a unit near you?  If not, here's a link to try:

http://cap.findlocation.com/

Good luck. :clap:

EDIT: Lt. Sinn beat me to it!

[SarDragon]

Welcome to a potential firestorm.

As for the specifics of the reg, IMHO it vaguely suggests that hair length approach conformance with AF standards in that area, though many will argue that. If you are working with cadets, I would recommend ditching the long hair. It sets a poor example. Lacking a beard, the moustache should conform to the CAPM 39-1 standard. Again, others will argue the point. This is my interpretation of a vaguely written reg.

I, myself, have a beard, but my hair conforms to the set standard. It has caused me problems in the past, but not recently. I keep it neatly trimmed, mostly meeting the standards the Navy had when beards were still allowed. (They went away forever in Jan 1985.)

It will, in the end, depend on how well your appearance is accepted in your unit, group, and wing. If you get the evil eye all the time, then some trimmage might be in order. If not, enjoy your participation.

YMMV.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Welcome to a potential firestorm.

As for the specifics of the reg, IMHO it vaguely suggests that hair length approach conformance with AF standards in that area, though many will argue that. If you are working with cadets, I would recommend ditching the long hair. It sets a poor example. Lacking a beard, the moustache should conform to the CAPM 39-1 standard. Again, others will argue the point. This is my interpretation of a vaguely written reg.

I, myself, have a beard, but my hair conforms to the set standard. It has caused me problems in the past, but not recently. I keep it neatly trimmed, mostly meeting the standards the Navy had when beards were still allowed. (They went away forever in Jan 1985.)

It will, in the end, depend on how well your appearance is accepted in your unit, group, and wing. If you get the evil eye all the time, then some trimmage might be in order. If not, enjoy your participation.

YMMV.

I have to disagree on this one. As someone else said we need professionals in CAP. I attended a Training Leaders of Cadets with a gentleman with hair down to the middle of his back. I admit I was put off at first look. However, after speaking with him I had no doubts of his dedication to the cadet program.

[Short Field]

Follow the regulations - not someone's opinion on what they wish the regulations said. 

[a2capt]

Don't judge a book by it's cover.

The regulations are quite clear and very flexible. You should have no issues. Treat CAP as you do your professional environment and you'll be all set, and figure on the corporate gray uniforms.

[Airrace]

I would have no problem with it. We need all the quality help we can get at CAP. I would openly welcome you to join our squadron.

[Pingree1492]

Welcome to a potential firestorm.

As for the specifics of the reg, IMHO it vaguely suggests that hair length approach conformance with AF standards in that area, though many will argue that. If you are working with cadets, I would recommend ditching the long hair. It sets a poor example. Lacking a beard, the moustache should conform to the CAPM 39-1 standard. Again, others will argue the point. This is my interpretation of a vaguely written reg.

It will, in the end, depend on how well your appearance is accepted in your unit, group, and wing. If you get the evil eye all the time, then some trimmage might be in order. If not, enjoy your participation.

YMMV.

(throwing in my two cents):

I have to strongly disagree with the above.  If your personal preference is to wear your hair long, then go ahead and do it.  As long as your presenting a professional appearance while in uniform and at CAP activities, then no one should have a problem.  Having long hair as a man, or (in my case) very short hair as a woman isn't "setting a poor example" for cadets. 

Acting and behaving as a professional is a far more important example to be setting for cadets, and your ability to do that is in no way reflected by your hair length.

Welcome to CAP.

[jimmydeanno]

It will, in the end, depend on how well your appearance is accepted in your unit, group, and wing. If you get the evil eye all the time, then some trimmage might be in order. If not, enjoy your participation.

Others being uncomfortable with his hair style is not his problem.  NHQ's policy is quite clear - they accept that people have beards, mustaches, and long hair and have created policies and uniforms to accommodate those people, because they are valuable assets to our organization.

On a side note, I have never seen anyone get avoided, excluded, harassed, ostracized, etc for having long hair, or a beard, or a mustache. 

Join up, have fun and I hope to see you around some time!

[Nathan]

It will, in the end, depend on how well your appearance is accepted in your unit, group, and wing. If you get the evil eye all the time, then some trimmage might be in order. If not, enjoy your participation.

Others being uncomfortable with his hair style is not his problem.  NHQ's policy is quite clear - they accept that people have beards, mustaches, and long hair and have created policies and uniforms to accommodate those people, because they are valuable assets to our organization.

Roger that. The regs protect it, like they would protect a religion that someone might be uncomfortable with. We don't tend to pander to those who base ability purely off of their personal ideas of professional appearance.

[SarDragon]

Today's attitudes are very different from (and better than) those in 1978 and 1989. I had problems at both times, in two different wings, because I had a beard. The first time i was on active duty in the navy, and the second time was just after I retired.

I am happy to say that I was welcomed when I resumed participation in 1999. There are many more members with beards now, than there were 20 yrs ago.

My post above reflects possibilities, slim that they may be, and not necessarily the predominant state of affairs. There are still some folks out there who dislike and disapprove of beards on CAP members.

YMMV.

[wingnut55]

I had a member give me grief about my hair being over the ears while in the Polo shirt. Later I found out he wears woman's underwear underneath his cloths?? I guess we just have to deal with all types of characters in the grand poo-pa.

[DC]

I had a member give me grief about my hair being over the ears while in the Polo shirt. Later I found out he wears woman's underwear underneath his cloths?? I guess we just have to deal with all types of characters in the grand poo-pa.

Um, okay then...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I had a member give me grief about my hair being over the ears while in the Polo shirt. Later I found out he wears woman's underwear underneath his cloths?? I guess we just have to deal with all types of characters in the grand poo-pa.

Um, okay then...

I think that fits under the TMI category.

[Cowanthunder]

Thanks for all the great responses!  I feel much better now.  I have been in love with flying since I was old enough to breathe!    Growing up I wanted to be an astronaut or fighter pilot.  I am very professional and I am a computer technician.  My employer sets a very high professional standard.  I am in the Dayton, OH area and thought Wright Patterson might have a squadron.

Once again I thank you all for the replies.  I have a few other questions but will save those for the appropriate forum topics. 

[Mustang]

I attended a Training Leaders of Cadets with a gentleman with hair down to the middle of his back. I admit I was put off at first look. However, after speaking with him I had no doubts of his dedication to the cadet program.

In my experience, cadets are not so forgiving of first impressions.

[Gunner C]

I attended a Training Leaders of Cadets with a gentleman with hair down to the middle of his back. I admit I was put off at first look. However, after speaking with him I had no doubts of his dedication to the cadet program.

In my experience, cadets are not so forgiving of first impressions.

He shouldn't be in a unit with cadets unless he can set the proper example.  It does no good to set standards for cadets for grooming and then have their leaders have another.  The old saying "a double standard is better than no standards at all" doesn't work.  Sorry, it's one thing to have long hair for SMs but telling cadets that good grooming is important and showing a different example?  They'll see that what we preach as being important is baloney.  Can't have it both ways.

[Fubar]

Sorry, it's one thing to have long hair for SMs but telling cadets that good grooming is important and showing a different example?

You raise an interesting philosophical conundrum we face with the cadet program. We expect our cadets to meet certain military-style regulations but the program itself is not run by the military. That means you have civilians, who under CAP regulations are not required to meet military-style regulations showing up at their meetings and in some cases where cadet squadrons are not cadet run - actually in charge!

Also, I don't see a male with long hair setting a bad grooming example. If anything, I'm jealous he has hair period. I suspect your point was a male with long hair setting a bad example of military grooming, which the guy probably isn't aspiring (nor required) to meet, not that any guy with long hair is an example of poor grooming.

Has this sort of thing been discussed at the national level before? I suppose like any push for tighter regulations, there would be a concern over lost members, especially smaller cadet squadrons with only a couple of parents serving as senior members.

[Mustang]

He shouldn't be in a unit with cadets unless he can set the proper example.  It does no good to set standards for cadets for grooming and then have their leaders have another.  The old saying "a double standard is better than no standards at all" doesn't work.  Sorry, it's one thing to have long hair for SMs but telling cadets that good grooming is important and showing a different example?  They'll see that what we preach as being important is baloney.  Can't have it both ways.

But wouldn't this also be the case regarding weight? 

[Ned]

He shouldn't be in a unit with cadets unless he can set the proper example.  It does no good to set standards for cadets for grooming and then have their leaders have another.  The old saying "a double standard is better than no standards at all" doesn't work.  Sorry, it's one thing to have long hair for SMs but telling cadets that good grooming is important and showing a different example?  They'll see that what we preach as being important is baloney.  Can't have it both ways.

But wouldn't this also be the case regarding weight?

And physical fitness?

And abstention from tobacco and alcohol?

And passing AE tests?

And not being married?

And maintaining a "satisfactory academic record in school"?


Boy, being a senior member at a cadet or composite unit is going to be a lot tougher than I thought it was>

[Short Field]

He shouldn't be in a unit with cadets unless he can set the proper example.

So everyone who does not meet the standards for wear of the Air Force Style uniform needs to be transferred out of the Cadet and Composite Squadrons and into Senior Squadrons?

[Gunner C]

Get the low-hanging fruit.  If a person has long hair in a cadet squadron, ask them to get into the standard.  When you have a meeting, require everyone to have on the same uniform (if not the same general type).  If it is blues night, the SMs should be in blues, also - that would include CSU.  You get the idea. Yes, SMs should participate in fitness stuff, unless they're medically DQ'd.

[Ned]

Get the low-hanging fruit.  If a person has long hair in a cadet squadron, ask them to get into the standard. 

I guess the point of this thread is that the long-haired officer is in standard.

I get that fact that you think the standards should be different, but the point remains that our regulations are our regulations whether we like them or not.

Yes, SMs should participate in fitness stuff, unless they're medically DQ'd.

I'm with you on that.  Seniors should always set the best example they can for our cadets, but it is just silly to insist that they meet the same standards as the cadets. 

When I was doing my Army IET, our drill sergeants ran with us, but we never expected the supply sergeant or the unit armorer to be out doing exactly what we were doing.  I'm sure they met the Army standards, but they were not trainees.  They had a job to do, and they did it.

[Hawk200]

I guess the point of this thread is that the long-haired officer is in standard.

I get that fact that you think the standards should be different, but the point remains that our regulations are our regulations whether we like them or not.

I see it in an opposite manner. There is no "standard" for the blazer, so applying one is wrong. If you have a beard, long hair, or exceed the weight limits for the blues, then you wear a uniform that does not have those "standards".

I wouldn't call hygeine/grooming (as in combing your hair, or washing your face, etc) a "standard", just a professional expectation of any one of our members. It's quite appropriate for people to attend to personal hygiene. But, beards, long hair, or a certain weight are not connected to that, and should not be in any manner. I think that's the problem with a lot of people here, they feel that those things equate when they don't.

[Ned]

I see it in an opposite manner. There is no "standard" for the blazer, so applying one is wrong. If you have a beard, long hair, or exceed the weight limits for the blues, then you wear a uniform that does not have those "standards".

And I thought I was the recovering lawyer here.  This is just semantics at this point.  But hey, that's what lawyers do, so let's discuss it.

My dictionary says a "standard" means "a criterion" or "a reference point against which other things can be evaluaterd."

In this arena, the 39-1 pretty clearly sets the standards by affirmatively describing grooming standards for hair.  See Table 1-2, which sets overall hair standards for both USAF and non USAF style uniforms.

It even sets length and other standards for hair in non-USAF style uniforms (". . .will not touch eyebrows when groomed or protrude below front band of properly worn headgear. . .")

I wouldn't call hygeine/grooming (as in combing your hair, or washing your face, etc) a "standard", just a professional expectation of any one of our members.

You might not call such things a "standard," but the 39-1 does. 

All members of CAP must be well groomed . . .

It sets standards for hair syles, cosmetics, and even fingernail length.  Heck, even watch fobs, hankerchiefs, and earrings are specifically regulated.

Maybe it shouldn't have to for the very reasons you described.

But it does.



So, I'm thinking we have specific hair standards for all of our uniforms, and the hair described by the OP meets the specific standards prescribed by the 39-1 for some of our corporate uniforms.

but like I said, maybe this is just semantics at this point.

Ned Lee

[Johnny Yuma]

I had a member give me grief about my hair being over the ears while in the Polo shirt. Later I found out he wears woman's underwear underneath his cloths?? I guess we just have to deal with all types of characters in the grand poo-pa.

Hey! we agreed that would be our little secret, remember?

It was just the one time, when I lost that bet...

[drlmd1965]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the CAP core value of 'Respect'.  The OP's choice to wear his hair long is a personal choice, and merits respect from other members, the same as any other lawful personal choice.  I wouldn't be true to the core values I expect my cadets to follow if I looked down upon another member simply because I didn't like his hairstyle.

I also remember from my service in the USAF that no commander is authorized to make her/his own regulation stricter than the applicable USAF regulation, unless authority is specifically delegated to him by the regulation or higher authority.   Such authorization isn't included in CAPR 39-1.

To make a long story short:  either a member meets the regulation, or they don't.  If they meet the regulation, they should not be looked down upon by any other member, nor should they be considered as presenting an 'unprofessional image'.  The regulation exists to define what is considered a professional image in the CAP community.

As far as there being a 'double standard' between cadets and seniors:  yes, it exists.  Seniors are required to meet the same standards as cadets for wear of USAF-style uniforms.  Standards are looser for the corporate uniforms.  There are good reasons for this, not the least of which is that we'd lose a good portion of our membership (including myself and my wife) if all of us had to meet USAF height/weight standards.  We'd lose a great deal of experience and expertise, and our ability to accomplish our missions - including the cadet program - would be severely impacted.

For the record, my unit's emergency services officer wears his hair long in a pony tail.  He's always well groomed, and he's one of the most dedicated seniors in our unit.  While I personally don't much care for long hair on men, that's a personal opinion of mine.  I'd never *dream* of mentioning it to him.  Without him, we wouldn't have a ground team, and we'd probably lose half of our cadets.

___________
Maj Dan Lance
DC for Cadets, KY-131
Bardstown Composite Squadron

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the CAP core value of 'Respect'. 

Sadly, for the most part it seems something taught to cadets and not retained by seniors, at least directly.

[Gunner C]

I'd never *dream* of mentioning it to him.  Without him, we wouldn't have a ground team, and we'd probably lose half of our cadets.

Hair too long to fail?  This is a problem with CAP - if you're doing a bunch of work and you're considered "irreplaceable", then you can do pretty much whatever you want.

[Short Field]

I'd never *dream* of mentioning it to him.  Without him, we wouldn't have a ground team, and we'd probably lose half of our cadets.

Hair too long to fail?  This is a problem with CAP - if you're doing a bunch of work and you're considered "irreplaceable", then you can do pretty much whatever you want.

Too long to fail - or just within CAP regulations?

[Gunner C]

Just too long to set an example to impressionable cadets.

[jimmydeanno]

Here we go again...

What exactly is the contention with seniors meeting CAPs standards and working with cadets? 
How does having long hair have a negative affect on them?

[Gunner C]

Here we go again...

What exactly is the contention with seniors meeting CAPs standards and working with cadets? 
How does having long hair have a negative affect on them?

I can't stand there and tell a cadet his haircut is too long for standards if I'm not adhering to the same.  I've made a spot correction on a cadet who looked out of the corner of his eye at a SM whose hair was at the bottom of his ear.  You could see the recognition on the cadet's face that CAP's standards aren't serious.  IOW, "If I need to do this, why doesn't Capt Nosnhoj?

That cadet saw that what we're saying is "A double standard is better than no standards at all."  If we're going to let our "freak flags fly", then we'd best do it in senior squadrons only, away from the questioning eyes of those heads full of mush into whom we're trying to inculcate values.

[Hawk200]

I can't stand there and tell a cadet his haircut is too long for standards if I'm not adhering to the same.  I've made a spot correction on a cadet who looked out of the corner of his eye at a SM whose hair was at the bottom of his ear.  You could see the recognition on the cadet's face that CAP's standards aren't serious.  IOW, "If I need to do this, why doesn't Capt Nosnhoj?

That cadet saw that what we're saying is "A double standard is better than no standards at all."  If we're going to let our "freak flags fly", then we'd best do it in senior squadrons only, away from the questioning eyes of those heads full of mush into whom we're trying to inculcate values.

If cadets aren't aware of the different grooming standards for the different uniforms, you're the one who's failed them, and have failed in the course of your duties.

To require all members in all uniforms to have the same length of hair because you don't feel like covering all the uniforms is completely unnecessary, and many would consider it asinine.

Military haircut and grooming is not practical for everyone in the world, no matter how much you want it to be. It's an intolerant, and outdated, mindset. Educate cadets on everything they should know. Don't leave things out because you don't feel like teaching it, and then demand that others meet a standard that does not exist just to make it easier for yourself.

[SarDragon]

I agree with the "setting an example" idea. However, I am personally mixed on strict compliance.

Because of my facial hair, I am consigned to the corporate uniform combinations. When I first reaffiliated with a local unit in 1999 after a ten year gap in participation, I had collar length hair. After spending most of my life having my hair length dictated by others, I had decided that my hair length was nobody's business but my own.

Six months later, I thought better of the idea, and cut my hair to a more appropriate length. Now that I'm in a senior squadron, it's a little longer, but still nothing like it was ten years ago. Right now it's hanging on my ears, and telling me that it's time for a haircut.

YMMV.

[Eclipse]

I can't stand there and tell a cadet his haircut is too long for standards if I'm not adhering to the same.  I've made a spot correction on a cadet who looked out of the corner of his eye at a SM whose hair was at the bottom of his ear.  You could see the recognition on the cadet's face that CAP's standards aren't serious.  IOW, "If I need to do this, why doesn't Capt Nosnhoj?

The standard for the senior is different - welcome to the real world.

As long as the senior is within reg for his standard, its not the cadet's concern.  And even if the senior is wearing a uniform out of reg, that's not an excuse for someone else.  They can simply be the poster boy for bad example and you move on.

This nonsense about "Jimmy doesn't go to bed at 8:30, so why should I?" That kids try to pull doesn't fly.

You need to be consistent in your application and remediation, but that doesn't mean everyone is the same.  Last I checked, female members, both senior and cadet, had different grooming standards as well.

I am personally not an advocate of long hair, period, preferring the the Navy Flo-Bees at 1 & 2 over something I have to comb, however CAP says my opinion of someone else's hairstyle is irrelevant, as long as they meet the regs for the style of uniform they choose.

I don't burn any mental calories thinking beyond that.  Its counterproductive and I'm not allowed to anyway.

[Ned]

I can't stand there and tell a cadet his haircut is too long for standards if I'm not adhering to the same. 

So, seriously, does that mean that all seniors at cadet units need to be able to run a mile, do pushups, and the sit and reach to Spaatz standards?

And keep their weight to the standards in the back of the 39-1, (even though most cadets don't have to)?

Be able to take and pass the comprehensive aerospace and leadership exams required for the milestones?

Maintain a "satisfactory academic record"?

Be unmarried?


Those are all standards that cadets are required to meet as they progress through the program.

Why would seniors "setting the example" only have to meet some of the cadet standards and not others?

I'm honestly curious.

Ned Lee

[wuzafuzz]

Here we go again...

What exactly is the contention with seniors meeting CAPs standards and working with cadets? 
How does having long hair have a negative affect on them?

As long as we all follow the rules we agreed to follow when we became members, the rest should be a non-issue.

Long hair?  Fine, just don't wear uniforms that require short hair.  Long hair or facial hair don't send a negative message in and of themselves.  Violating the rules through willful behavior or ignorance definitely provides a bad example.

[Майор Хаткевич]

As long as we all follow the rules we agreed to follow when we became members, the rest should be a non-issue.

Long hair?  Fine, just don't wear uniforms that require short hair.  Long hair or facial hair don't send a negative message in and of themselves.  Violating the rules through willful behavior or ignorance definitely provides a bad example.

^^^ If C/Timmy wants to have a pony tail and a handle bar mustache, there is the BBDU and CSU.

[davidsinn]

As long as we all follow the rules we agreed to follow when we became members, the rest should be a non-issue.

Long hair?  Fine, just don't wear uniforms that require short hair.  Long hair or facial hair don't send a negative message in and of themselves.  Violating the rules through willful behavior or ignorance definitely provides a bad example.

^^^ If C/Timmy wants to have a pony tail and a handle bar mustache, there is the BBDU and CSU.

Not true. See CAP/CC Letter, Clarification of CAPM 39-1, Cadet Grooming Standards

Update: CAP/CC MEMO FOR CAP UNIT COMMANDERS 15 July 2008
SUBJECT: Clarification of CAPM 39-1, Cadet Grooming Standards

1. All cadet members must meet the grooming standards prescribed for AF-style uniforms in Attachment 2 of CAPM 39-1 whenever wearing a CAP Uniform, including CAP Distinctive Uniforms as well as USAF-style Uniforms. Exceptions may be made at the discretion of the National Commander as necessary to comply with the law. (See link above for additional details)

[Майор Хаткевич]

I stand corrected.

If 18 year old C/Timmy wants to have a pony tail and a handlebar mustache, then he can roll over to Flight Officer and wear the BBDU and CSU. Everyone else, barring religious reasons can GTFO of the program. 

[a2capt]

Interesting that the OP also has not been back since asking about aero club access due to CAP membership and membership vs. gainable flight time.

In other words..  there was an agenda. Probably trying to feel out if the long hair was much of an issue vs. what benefits are actually there and is it worth taking the snippers to it.

[AlphaSigOU]

I stand corrected.

If 18 year old C/Timmy wants to have a pony tail and a handlebar mustache, then he can roll over to Flight Officer and wear the BBDU and CSU. Everyone else, barring religious reasons can GTFO of the program. 

Pretty harsh, cadet. I would have been a little more diplomatic about it instead of resorting to a rather crude initialism in a public forum. I agree, though, that if one cannot - or will not - conform to regulations, then they should no longer be members.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Pretty harsh, cadet. I would have been a little more diplomatic about it instead of resorting to a rather crude initialism in a public forum. I agree, though, that if one cannot - or will not - conform to regulations, then they should no longer be members.

The smiley at the end with *rolling eyes* was supposed to show the sarcasm/disagreement I have with that point of view.

[SilverEagle2]

Not a point of view...it's a regulation. Big difference.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Not a point of view...it's a regulation. Big difference.

Regulation stemming from a world view of those who wrote it. Would I break a regulation for someone over their need to keep their hair? Never. But have I met people who had medical conditions, and long hair helped them mask some sort of medical condition? Yes

[lordmonar]

I can't stand there and tell a cadet his haircut is too long for standards if I'm not adhering to the same.

But you are adhearing to standards...they are just different.  Just like the uniform standard between Cadet Officers and Cadet Enlisted are different.

Are you implying that a cadet officer who is wearing his service cap can't correct a cadet enlisted on the proper wear of the flight cap?

Or a female member can't correct male members on hair?

If the member is IN STANDARDS then he is in standards.....if you got a problem with standards then you need to take it up with NHQ.

[Hawk200]

I think I realize a good part of the problem. My first few years in the military, I had the impression that long haired, unshaven folks were slackers, hippies, losers. A good part of that opinion was formed by the influence of my TI, and then reinforced by fellow military members. There was a time when "civilian" was almost a dirty word.

After a few years, I realized that my this opinion was wrong. Even more importantly, I realized that it was also unprofessional. Expecting non-military personnel to follow military standards is inappropriate. I no longer subscribe to such an opinion.

However, I do expect people to be groomed. That means wash, and comb, your hair; I don't care how long it is. It means take a shower (or a bath), preferably on a daily basis. It also means wear clean, dry, serviceable clothing with as few wrinkles as possible (some things get a few wrinkles from activity but for the most part it's not an issue to me).

Serviceable also applies to footwear. Showing up with dirty/muddy shoes or boots is not an example of attention to detail. Keep 'em clean.

There is a member locally who just doesn't pass muster on a lot of these thngs. Wears a combover, but doesn't comb the rest of his hair. Never seen him shaved, alhtough it looks when he does it's only once a week or so. Tends to wear ratty t-shirts or stained sweatshirts. Wears black socks with black athletic shoes (not really a standards problem, just a serious fashion faux pas). The coach gym shorts don't help. This is a person I have very little respect for, and fortunately don't have to really deal with. To top it off, this individual has stated that he thinks he should be running the cadet program.

I've seen him in a semblance of what could be considered a "uniform" once. A grey polo with his previous wing's patch on the chest, and something on the arm. He wore it with blue jeans (the one time I've seen him wear pants).

As far as "standards" go, he doesn't fill a single one of common personal grooming. Thankfully, I've never been close enough to smell him, I have a suspicion if I did I would probably find it offensive.

So, all in all, it's better to have someone long haired, neatly trimmed beard, and wearing clean clothing than someone unkempt like I've mentioned. Civil Air Patrol allows it, and no one has any authority, business or place to push their own ideas on someone in full compliance with CAP's criteria. The standards for the blues are pure military, but the standards for the others are not. Don't try to force people into a mold that they aren't required to fit.

[Major Carrales]

I am not of Long hair, however, I would prefer those CAP Officers that sport it if they would do so with a "pony tail."  Why, in my opinion, it looks better and more professional than free.  Also, I feel that to had it bound behind one's head might also facilitate a greater degree of safety and improve (via increased visibility) situational awareness.

This is, as I can safely say, a pretty good compromise between those that would say long hair should be verboten and those that wish to sport it.

[Hawk200]

I've kind of got to wonder if maybe there are some military hard core members teaching cadets that everyone in CAP should have military length hair and should be cleanshaven. Or teaching them that those not within the weight limits of blues shouldn't be a part of the organization.

This is just as bad as people that think we shouldn't have the blues and that CAP should be a wholly civilian organization without the "military" aspect.

[Eclipse]

^ Stop wondering, they are out there, and not nearly as quickly remediated as they should be, if ever.

There's a reason we have to keep hammering on things like CPPT, hazing, etc., and why PD is so important for the leadership, in some cases its the only time people are told they are doing something wrong.

[Major Rob]

I wear my hair about half-way between my shoulders and my waist. More importantly, I am fastidious about my grooming and uniforms. My hair is always clean and pulled back in a pony tail when I'm in uniform. The uniforms themselves - all of the "distinctive" variety - are clean, pressed, and all insignia are properly applied. In my blue BDU's, I sometimes wear the field cap, sometimes the CAP baseball cap (depending on what other Seniors are wearing; I believe it's important for uniforms to be consistent among members -- Even if they are "distinctive"). My shoes/boots are always shined to within an inch of their lives. In short, I make it a point to set a positive example regading uniform wear to all of the cadets in my squadron.

In my opinion, it's not whether one meets military standards or not. The most important thing is that people meet the CAP standard for the uniform they choose to wear. If the member shows pride in his appearance and projects an image that reflects well on himself and the CAP, then he is doing more to promote the organization than a member who marginally meets the military standard, but does so in such a way as to present a slack appearance while in uniform (e.g. sloppy dress, unpressed shirts/pants, dirty shoes/boots, unkempt hair, etc.).

Even in my own squadron, though, there is at least one member who believes that there is some sort of heirarchy of CAP uniforms. He actually believes (and refuses *not* to believe) that the AF uniform is superior to the CAP distinctives. He has told me directly that he would not salute a superior officer with long hair in CAP distinctives. He also thinks that members in distinctives should stand at the back during flight formations. Basically, he's a bigot who thinks that people who don't meet *his* standard should be looked down upon and treated as second-class members of CAP.

CAP is an inclusive organization. Members like the one I described above do more to hurt us than to help us. We need all the talent we can get and those talented people should be treated with respect. If they follow the rules and present an image that reflects well on the organization, then they should be welcomed with open arms and their contributions recognized. Jerks who think they're better than other people are the folks we don't need in CAP.

Any person who is willing to give of himself, his time, and his talent should be welcome here. Any opinion to the contrary - in *my* not so humble opinion - is misguided, a detriment to CAP, and reflects very poorly on its members.

Cadets aren't idiots -- They know that there are rules and that the rules aren't necessarily the same for everybody. And, if they don't know this, then it's up to us to teach them, as this is one of the most important lessons they will ever learn in their lives.

Oh, and when the overweight Senior Members are denied the option of wearing CAP uniforms until they lose weight, *then* I will see a legitimate argument against Senior Members being allowed to wear long and/or facial hair. Until then, though, there is no justificaiton for making an exception in one case, but not the other.

Again, just my opinion, but one that I feel very strongly about.

PS: Yes, I know the captain's bars in my sig photo are aligned along the wrong edge of the collar. This has since been fixed!

[davidsinn]

Even in my own squadron, though, there is at least one member who believes that there is some sort of heirarchy of CAP uniforms. He actually believes (and refuses *not* to believe) that the AF uniform is superior to the CAP distinctives. He has told me directly that he would not salute a superior officer with long hair in CAP distinctives. He also thinks that members in distinctives should stand at the back during flight formations. Basically, he's a bigot who thinks that people who don't meet *his* standard should be looked down upon and treated as second-class members of CAP.

I'd love to meat that knot head. My commander and I both wear Corporate uniforms. He would be set straight in a real quick hurry or be transferred to 000 if he were in our unit.

[MSgt Van]

He actually believes (and refuses *not* to believe) that the AF uniform is superior to the CAP distinctives. He has told me directly that he would not salute a superior officer with long hair in CAP distinctives. He also thinks that members in distinctives should stand at the back during flight formations. Basically, he's a bigot who thinks that people who don't meet *his* standard should be looked down upon and treated as second-class members of CAP.

How's this allowed? Send him my way for a little chat on CAP customs and courtesies. It'll be a one-way discussion for sure. 

[MIKE]

Prior to April 09 with the new CAPP 151, things could be a little different however.

[MSgt Van]

Good point about CAPP 151. I still think this guy's attitude is incorrect.

[Major Rob]

I assume this is the relevent paragraph in CAP 151:

Senior Members. For senior members, the rendering of customs and courtesies is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer). Regardless, CAP encourages all members to take part in something larger than themselves by participating in these rich traditions.

This seems to indicate that only in the case of the polo shirt and blazer combinations are customs and courtesies somehow optional. However, it does not say that members wearing these uniforms are somehow deserving of less respect than those in the other CAP uniforms, distinctive or not. Nor does it say that members in the polo shirt or blazer should be marginalized or segregated from the rest of the squadron based on their uniform choices.

In fact, the above paragraph invites *all* members to participate in military C&C, regardless of the uniform they are wearing. This strongly implies that other members should respond in kind.

The following paragraph seems to make clear the idea that all members are co-equal, regardless of the uniform they wear. Of course, there are distinctions based on rank, but rank carries with it greater responsibility regarding respect, courtesy, and setting the best example:

Because all people should be respectful, the Core Value of Respect is a two-way street. Even our National Commander treats the most junior cadet as he or she would like to be treated. A person's rank does not give them license to be rude, over-bearing, or boastful. Likewise, when a junior renders military courtesies to a senior, it is done as a sign of respect for the officer's position. Military customs and courtesies are never marks of inferiority because they do not aim to humiliate. Rather, Air Force-style customs and courtesies make CAP service special and patriotic.

Most importantly, these guidelines and CAP regs recognize the CAP distinctive uniforms (i.e. the blue BDU's, White Aviator Shirt, and corporate uniforms) to be "military-style uniforms" that are viewed exactly the same as the AF uniforms within CAP. So, to treat these uniforms any differently than the AF-style uniforms is just plain wrong.

However, it seems to me that the member to whom I referred is most guilty of violating this tenet, quoted above:

A person's rank does not give them license to be rude, over-bearing, or boastful.

Like I said, the guy's a jerk. I've had to report him *twice* to the squadron commander for inappropriate comments. Personally, I'd rather have a squadron full of fat, long-haired, bearded team players than someone like him, who creates descension among squadron members.

Once again, just my opinion. But, I continue to feel strongly about this.

[Hawk200]

I wear my hair about half-way between my shoulders and my waist. More importantly, I am fastidious about my grooming and uniforms. ....{Redacted for length}...My shoes/boots are always shined to within an inch of their lives. In short, I make it a point to set a positive example regading uniform wear to all of the cadets in my squadron.

Even though you may have longer hair, this kind of attitude still presents a true military professionalism to me, and probably to a few others here. Don't know if you've been military or not, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if you had.

....If the member shows pride in his appearance and projects an image that reflects well on himself and the CAP, then he is doing more to promote the organization than a member who marginally meets the military standard, but does so in such a way as to present a slack appearance while in uniform (e.g. sloppy dress, unpressed shirts/pants, dirty shoes/boots, unkempt hair, etc.).

Agreed. Personally, I don't care what uniform someone wears, but if they're sloppy, I don't consider them reliable.

Even in my own squadron, though, there is at least one member who believes that there is some sort of heirarchy of CAP uniforms. He actually believes (and refuses *not* to believe) that the AF uniform is superior to the CAP distinctives. He has told me directly that he would not salute a superior officer with long hair in CAP distinctives. He also thinks that members in distinctives should stand at the back during flight formations. Basically, he's a bigot who thinks that people who don't meet *his* standard should be looked down upon and treated as second-class members of CAP.

Let me guess: current or former military? Not all have the same mindset, but there are the foolishly stubborn ones. They're the types where you think that maybe, just maybe, a wall to wall counseling would actually be appropriate.

CAP is an inclusive organization. Members like the one I described above do more to hurt us than to help us...Jerks who think they're better than other people are the folks we don't need in CAP.

Agreed. Keep the contributors, dump the losers.

Any person who is willing to give of himself, his time, and his talent should be welcome here. Any opinion to the contrary - in *my* not so humble opinion - is misguided, a detriment to CAP, and reflects very poorly on its members.

As long as they're willing to be part of the team, and do what the rules require, I'll agree. There are some that will "give of themselves" as long as you don't have any problem with them doing it their way, rules and regulations be [darn]ed.

Cadets aren't idiots -- They know that there are rules and that the rules aren't necessarily the same for everybody. And, if they don't know this, then it's up to us to teach them, as this is one of the most important lessons they will ever learn in their lives.

I'll add that don't teach only one set of rules when there are more than one set. It's the same thing as putting forth only half the truth. And only half the truth is still a lie when there is more more to be told and you know it.

[Major Rob]

I wear my hair about half-way between my shoulders and my waist. More importantly, I am fastidious about my grooming and uniforms. ....{Redacted for length}...My shoes/boots are always shined to within an inch of their lives. In short, I make it a point to set a positive example regading uniform wear to all of the cadets in my squadron.

Even though you may have longer hair, this kind of attitude still presents a true military professionalism to me, and probably to a few others here. Don't know if you've been military or not, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if you had.

I've never been in the military, but my father is retired full-time Army and my older brother is currently a full-bird colonel in the AF, working at the Pentagon. I was raised with a healthy respect for the military, its traiditions, and those who serve. Also, I was a cadet and I learned a lot about what it means to be proud of one's uniform from the excellent leaders in my cadet squadron way back in the early '80s.

Even in my own squadron, though, there is at least one member who believes that there is some sort of heirarchy of CAP uniforms. He actually believes (and refuses *not* to believe) that the AF uniform is superior to the CAP distinctives. He has told me directly that he would not salute a superior officer with long hair in CAP distinctives. He also thinks that members in distinctives should stand at the back during flight formations. Basically, he's a bigot who thinks that people who don't meet *his* standard should be looked down upon and treated as second-class members of CAP.

Let me guess: current or former military? Not all have the same mindset, but there are the foolishly stubborn ones. They're the types where you think that maybe, just maybe, a wall to wall counseling would actually be appropriate.

Believe it or not, this guy has been in CAP since he was 14 years old (I guess he's about 50 now). He has never served in the actual military, which makes his attitude even more confusing to me now.

Cadets aren't idiots -- They know that there are rules and that the rules aren't necessarily the same for everybody. And, if they don't know this, then it's up to us to teach them, as this is one of the most important lessons they will ever learn in their lives.

I'll add that don't teach only one set of rules when there are more than one set. It's the same thing as putting forth only half the truth. And only half the truth is still a lie when there is more more to be told and you know it.

Bingo!

[Fubar]

I assume this is the relevent paragraph in CAP 151:

Senior Members. For senior members, the rendering of customs and courtesies is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer).

I was under the impression that the white aviator shirt was a "civilian" combo, meaning a hand over the heart instead of saluting while in formation outside. I don't wear that uniform, but a few guys do and they follow along with the guys in blue polos. They are rule followers, so this isn't a case of them doing whatever they want, perhaps a rule interpretation went astray and precedence was set.

[Nick]

I was under the impression that the white aviator shirt was a "civilian" combo [snip]

Me too.  I thought if it was in Chapter 2 of 39-1, it was an USAF-style uniform (hence the title) and Chapter 4 is CAP distinctive (read: corporate, aka non-military-style) uniforms.

[Hawk200]

I've never been in the military, but my father is retired full-time Army and my older brother is currently a full-bird colonel in the AF, working at the Pentagon. I was raised with a healthy respect for the military, its traiditions, and those who serve. Also, I was a cadet and I learned a lot about what it means to be proud of one's uniform from the excellent leaders in my cadet squadron way back in the early '80s.

Seems like you took the lessons to heart.

Believe it or not, this guy has been in CAP since he was 14 years old (I guess he's about 50 now). He has never served in the actual military, which makes his attitude even more confusing to me now.

Very confusing. But it strikes me as someone that desperately wants to be better than everyone else so he manufactures a reason, even if it's blatantly discriminating and has no basis in fact.

[Simerpreet]

Thanks for all the great responses!  I feel much better now.  I have been in love with flying since I was old enough to breathe!    Growing up I wanted to be an astronaut or fighter pilot.  I am very professional and I am a computer technician.  My employer sets a very high professional standard.  I am in the Dayton, OH area and thought Wright Patterson might have a squadron.

Once again I thank you all for the replies.  I have a few other questions but will save those for the appropriate forum topics. 

OMG you live near my brother in dayton my brother in air force in wright patterson! ha