Flight Officer Grade

[ThorntonOL]

I was up to Technical when I turned 21 and didn't really have a problem with it.
Actually I think it's a good idea. You have a cadet who wants to be a senior member and he's just turned 18, give him the Flight Officer rank as it's only recorded in the Squadron and keep an eye on him. Train him like any other senior and when he hits 21 either promote him to equilvalent grade or make him go through the ranks like anyone else joining post 21 age. (Basically if he's fit for the rank he is "holding" as a FO give the equivalent to him after he's 21.)
It's really a matter of walking the walk and not just talking the talk. This way you can correct any "mistakes" before he(she) actually has any real rank.

[JoeTomasone]

How is it confusing, exactly?

OK, so apparently everyone who initially joins as a SM but is under 21 becomes a SMWOG and does the same progression as an over-21 SM - Level I, Level II, etc, but they get FO grades instead of 1st/2nd Lt & Captain.

So two questions: is a FO considered to be subordinate to a 2d. Lt.?  

What does a FO/TFO/SFO become at age 21?   If they translate like this:

FO = 2d Lt

TFO = 1st. Lt.

SFO = Capt.


..Then that makes no sense since they completely bypass the time-in-grade required of over-21 members - (21 months to reach SFO vs. 36 months to reach Capt).

Now for a former Cadet, I can accept this - but for a first-time member who just happens to be under 21?

The confusion also stems from the fact that I cannot find anything in the regs that translates a FO grade to a "regular" officer grade for anyone other than former cadets (CAPR 35-5, pp. 11, fg. .

It's also confusing since I do not know why CAP feels that we must treat those between ages 18 and 21 differently than those over 21.  There's no legal issue that I am aware of (such as the legitimate issue of having Cadet GTLs required to be over age 18).

And to keep this on topic, if it makes little sense, and there's obviously little support from National in terms of getting insignia, why not eliminate them?   You'd never see Vanguard run out of 2nd. Lt. insignia.....

[arajca]

Ref CAPR 35-5, Figure 2. Only former cadets get the direct transfer. Others get the time in grade credited toward the promotion, i.e. SFO for 12 months means they still have to do 6 months as a 1st Lt to get Capt.

FO's do not completely bypass the TIG requirements completely.

As for why we have FO's, ask the Air Force.

[JoeTomasone]

Ref CAPR 35-5, Figure 2. Only former cadets get the direct transfer. Others get the time in grade credited toward the promotion, i.e. SFO for 12 months means they still have to do 6 months as a 1st Lt to get Capt.

FO's do not completely bypass the TIG requirements completely.

That's what I get for skipping to the FO section of 35-5.       That does clear it up.

[stratoflyer]

I've skimmed around these pages, but how exactly does a FO stand in terms of grade? I view them a a senior NCO type of thing, getting ready for the officer ranks.

Why not get rid of those and use senior member NCO ranks, not just for the former military folks. Just a thought. Fire away.

[DNall]

I was up to Technical when I turned 21 and didn't really have a problem with it.
Actually I think it's a good idea. You have a cadet who wants to be a senior member and he's just turned 18, give him the Flight Officer rank as it's only recorded in the Squadron and keep an eye on him. Train him like any other senior and when he hits 21 either promote him to equilvalent grade or make him go through the ranks like anyone else joining post 21 age. (Basically if he's fit for the rank he is "holding" as a FO give the equivalent to him after he's 21.)
It's really a matter of walking the walk and not just talking the talk. This way you can correct any "mistakes" before he(she) actually has any real rank.

So former cadets &/or 18-20 adults are on probation, but any 21+ yahoo off the street gets to be an officer w/o that probation period? In what world does that sound like it's okay?

I actually agree that people are on average not mature enough to be CAP officers prior to 21, but I'd also like to see a lot of other requirements and training also, which necessitates an alternative, which is where I start talking about an enlisted system.

OK, so apparently everyone who initially joins as a SM but is under 21 becomes a SMWOG and does the same progression as an over-21 SM - Level I, Level II, etc, but they get FO grades instead of 1st/2nd Lt & Captain.

So two questions: is a FO considered to be subordinate to a 2d. Lt.?  

What does a FO/TFO/SFO become at age 21?   If they translate like this:

FO = 2d Lt

TFO = 1st. Lt.

SFO = Capt.


..Then that makes no sense since they completely bypass the time-in-grade required of over-21 members - (21 months to reach SFO vs. 36 months to reach Capt).

Now for a former Cadet, I can accept this - but for a first-time member who just happens to be under 21?

The confusion also stems from the fact that I cannot find anything in the regs that translates a FO grade to a "regular" officer grade for anyone other than former cadets (CAPR 35-5, pp. 11, fg. .

It's also confusing since I do not know why CAP feels that we must treat those between ages 18 and 21 differently than those over 21.  There's no legal issue that I am aware of (such as the legitimate issue of having Cadet GTLs required to be over age 18).

And to keep this on topic, if it makes little sense, and there's obviously little support from National in terms of getting insignia, why not eliminate them?   You'd never see Vanguard run out of 2nd. Lt. insignia.....

PD requirements are the same. TIG is 3mos to FO, 12 to TFO, 18 to SFO, IIRC. FOs actually get screwed ont he TIG a bit if they don't join right at their 18th Bday or get behind even a couple months on the progression. I a couple months after my 18th BDay, about to pin SFO before I turned 21, ended up 1LT & had to wait a while for Capt. It's not a well designed or thought out system that does tend to screw over those younger members in the TIG/promotions aspect.

FO/TFO/SFO outranks SMWOG, but is subordinate to 2Lt. It's basically like a warrant officer.

Why not get rid of those and use senior member NCO ranks, not just for the former military folks. Just a thought. Fire away.

That's my opinion as well. Specifically:
1) All members join as Amn Basic versus SMWOG. No change to the SMWOG uniform.
2) FO/TFO/SFO change to Amn/A1C/SrA. Those grade are not used by the CAP NCO system, are readily avail, rules already set, etc. No change to the program.

Certainly if I had my way I'd like a more extensive enlisted system for all members with a process of qual/selection/trng to become an officer, but that's a different topic. The simple version I just mentioned seems like a good fix to me.