Parental advisory: male/female billeting/lavatories informed consent

Started by Spam, March 30, 2022, 07:22:02 PM

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Spam

This post is not intended to debate the treatment of gender dysphoria in youth or to inflame a movement to deny such disabled members access to federally funded programs (which would be counter to law and policy). It is merely to advise parents to seek information to make THEIR informed consent to the care of their minor cadets while in CAP custody.

With the upcoming 2022 NCSA and encampment season approaching, parents of CAP cadets should be aware that the new NHQ cadet policy is being interpreted to allow biological males to share sleeping quarters with female cadets, and vice versa. This did actually happen in 2021 at at least one national special activity, although their website still states:  "Male and female cadets are housed in separate barracks and have separate bath/toilet facilities."

Parents who may be concerned need to know in advance the possible situation so that they may make an informed decision regarding their cadets participation.  As with at least one 2021 activity with the sanction of national staff members present, cadets may in fact be sleeping next to the opposite sex, and may be sharing showers/restrooms, despite what the activity FAQ websites currently state. Parents should also be aware that (as in last years incident) cadets who express discomfort or protest may be told to stand down and take it, and may not be allowed to call home.

R/s
Spam

Capt Thompson

Is there documented evidence from this particular NCSA that's available for the membership to view?
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

Ned

We always encourage parents with questions about facilities or policies to ask their local squadron leadership.  In the unlikely situation where the local leadership is not able to answer a question, a quick call to the wing DCP should do the trick.

We encourage the wings to be open and transparent concerning billeting conditions such as whether there are open bay barracks or individual rooms, the nature of the latrine conditions, and that members with special needs can request accommodations.

Of course, encampments conducted in "legacy" facilities have always had privacy issues for CAP members, and especially younger cadets.  That is one of the reasons we have experienced cadet program officers present to assist when necessary.

CAP has had GLTBQ+ members present and participating in encampments and other overnight activities for over 75 years without any significant issues.  Mostly because everyone at the activity is focused on training cadets and not on other matters.

I hope everyone in this particular conversation remains respectful and recognizes that our terrific CP is an inclusive experience designed to challenge youth in a vigorous leadership development program.


Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager

Spam

The parents of my cadet have declined to file a complaint, as they seem to feel that NHQ staff made the point that the policy is set an endorsed by national HQ - according to my cadet, female cadets were told to deal with it when they spoke up about their discomfort - so apparently we are not going to see an IG inquiry at all. Given the way America is today, I can see their point that now they just want their cadet to make it through without being attacked or ostracized in return.

Yes, the website of the activity in question has pictures if you want to look, but honestly, my point here is not to target one activity, or to target individuals (some of whom are minors and should be protected).  The applicable regulations, which I've reviewed, have all been approved and are set to cover this. My point going forward is to urge parents who are concerned with this issue to call, to ask, and to confirm for themselves before putting their children into situations where they are not allowed to call home, or file a complaint.

With respect to Ned, what I think has changed in the situation is that "reasonable accommodation" has now been defined as placing actual biological males in female quarters/latrines (and vice versa), which is a new situation from past years. While all of us should support enabling access to ALL members in federally funded programs like ours, this issue has been framed by a lack of clarity (my opinion) in communication with parents.

V/r
Spam

TheSkyHornet

I think there's some validity to the "perception is reality" rule.

We have experienced situations where a transgender cadet has been housed in the same dorm room as two other cadets of associated identified gender. It was my understanding that the parents of the other two cadets were not informed at all about the billeting arrangements; let alone the cadet's health information did not point to a transgender status.

Later on, it starts to become a question when parents do find out; and I've been asked more often than I was before, "How do we handle transgender cadets staying overnight?" I'm not sure how individuals were made aware, but it's come up just the same.

On one end, there is the privacy of the individual that needs to be maintained. There is also a level of modernization in understanding that there really shouldn't be a concern, particularly in this age group, of a transitioning member. I'm highly doubtful of an ill-intent by the member to share a dormitory with the opposite birth gender.

But on the other end, just the same, we're going to have people who are uncomfortable with it, and "Get over it" probably isn't the best approach.

We don't segregate heterosexual and homosexual (or any other kind of sexual) members when it comes to housing. We wouldn't dare put all of the gay cadets into one room so as not to intermix them with the straight cadets. To that same front, though, we don't intermix males and females into a common billet unless there are large enough numbers to prevent what we would consider a "potential problem."

I have yet to see a situation where a transgender cadet shared an open-bay shower with non-trans cadets. I'm sure that's a possibility, though. In that case, I'm not sure what we'd do, honestly.

We don't separate cadets with birth defects from those without birth defects. We do take into consideration some separation by ages when possible to avoid placing 12-year-old cadets into showers with 17-year-old cadets, as there are obviously some very likely physical differentiations there. But that doesn't mean that we can always accommodate that, and it doesn't mean that every 12-year-old is physically developing at the same rate.

So what happens if/when the cadet's status is viewed as a matter such as a birth defect? If this is someone who has the wrong parts, does that mean that the cadet shouldn't be made to suffer in that matter by being placed into a different shower facility? Why would a trans cadet not be permitted to use the same facility as everyone else?

But then we go right back to the parents on that. I can't imagine the questions I would receive if a born-male cadet was permitted to shower openly with born-female cadets. Would it be discriminatory of us to ask them to have their own shower time or facility?

I couldn't imagine, in the above scenario, what the feedback would be if parents found that out after the activity concluded.

etodd

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on March 31, 2022, 07:00:20 PMI have yet to see a situation where a transgender cadet shared an open-bay shower with non-trans cadets. I'm sure that's a possibility, though. In that case, I'm not sure what we'd do, honestly.



Every group would be different.  Some kids in the female shower would embrace it and say "cool, she has a penis".  The next group would run screaming out the door.

IOW ... the kids will handle this. Cannot regulate kid's emotions.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

NovemberWhiskey

Quote from: Spam on March 30, 2022, 07:22:02 PMWith the upcoming 2022 NCSA and encampment season approaching, parents of CAP cadets should be aware that the new NHQ cadet policy is being interpreted to allow biological males to share sleeping quarters with female cadets, and vice versa.
... which new policy is that? I know of CAPP 1-10, which speaks about preferred accommodations for transgender cadets - those do include arrangements that include communal lodging arrangements based on the presented gender of the cadet - but that's from five years ago at this point. CAPR 36-1 is even older.

Quote from: Spam on March 30, 2022, 07:22:02 PMThis did actually happen in 2021 at at least one national special activity, although their website still states:  "Male and female cadets are housed in separate barracks and have separate bath/toilet facilities."
In the absence of a clarifying statement about whether that's a statement about gender or sex we can't really know the intentions of the writers; but certainly one of those interpretations is completely consistent with housing transgender cadets with their presented gender.

CAP has a clear, national, non-discrimination policy, and requires that reasonable accommodations be made for all members. CAP, again at the national level, publishes a pamphlet for commanders and activity organizers that describes what reasonable accommodation means. If there are CAP members (or parents of cadets) who feel uncomfortable with the implications of the non-discrimination policy, then that's unfortunate, but they must realize that their own attitudes do not supersede the organization's policy of inclusivity.

etodd

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on March 31, 2022, 11:42:21 PMIf there are CAP members (or parents of cadets) who feel uncomfortable with the implications of the non-discrimination policy, then that's unfortunate, but they must realize that their own attitudes do not supersede the organization's policy of inclusivity.


So by your statement ....  if a 13 year old female Cadet doesn't feel comfortable in a communal shower with a 13 year female who still has a penis .... are you saying the first female has an unfortunate attitude and should "get over it"?

If not, what is the solution?
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

NovemberWhiskey

No; I thought I was pretty clear in saying that reasonable accommodations are required. Why don't you go take a read of CAPP 1-10 to see the nuance rather than going straight to ZOMGPENIS, hmm?

Ned

My sense is that we are at some risk that our conversation will not continue to be respectful and constructive.

I urge all of us to focus on how we can continue to conduct an inclusive and challenging CP where all of the participants feel safe and respected.

Spam

Quote from: Ned on April 01, 2022, 03:07:23 AMMy sense is that we are at some risk that our conversation will not continue to be respectful and constructive.

I urge all of us to focus on how we can continue to conduct an inclusive and challenging CP where all of the participants feel safe and respected.

As the OP, if the mods wish to lock at some point, so be it.

From my perspective as the OP, I've stated my caution as intended. I just wanted to urge parents, and our CP officers assisting parents and cadets who are planning their activities to take a hard look at the billeting arrangements before leaving their minors in CAP's care, since it would appear that CAP (a) appears to have a communications issue with informing parents that their dependents are likely to be billeted with the opposite sex, and (b) doesn't see the need to communicate that clearly (possibly related to an organizational blind spot regarding what an actual male or female is).  To me, clearly, "reasonable accommodation" does not include bunking and showering them together based on preference at all, as the current policy allows, and I think parents should be informed of what apparently is national HQ, CAPs interpretation.

So, for my part, I am reconsidering staffing the NCSA I've been planning on supporting this summer, if we can't confirm separate accommodations if required. Not happy about that at all. While I will absolutely defend to the hilt access for all cadets, I refuse to be disingenuous about what a male is, I won't participate in an activity which knowingly misleads parents of the minors in our care, and as a Commander, I cannot recommend such activities on that basis.

After nearly 40 years with the program, I am sad that we've come to this point, but for a time I caught flak for publicly dis-recommending IACE when we knowingly allowed underage cadets to drink on that NCSA, and we eventually learned our lesson and fixed IACE after some very bad incidents. Therefore, I still hold out hope that we may eventually regain the ability to tell a male from a female, and respect the parents equally (no more, no less) as much as we do the minority corner cases. Hopefully before any incidents or actions against CAP.

I hope thats as respectfully stated as possible, Ned. Thanks for your work on behalf of the program.

V/r
Spam

Spam

Update with positive results:

As a staff member this year for an NCSA I was pleased to review our plans with the AD, and if the need arises our plan will indeed include separate accommodation if required. So, I'm satisfied that we've got a fair, actionable plan, and will be doubling my prep efforts to set up some really cool applied engineering exercises and fun.

As a parent I've asked and am awaiting feedback as to the arrangements on a separate NCSA for my youngest cadet, to ensure that the same applies there as well. If parents are interested in asking on behalf of their dependent, the emails for the ADs are listed on the activity page for that NCSA.

R/s
Spam

UWONGO2

NHQ/CP has responded to this issue with a new FAQ:

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/parents/overnight-lodging-at-cadet-activities

BLUF: Cadets are billeted based on gender identity

Quote from: CAP/CPWe do not inquire about a cadet's anatomy. Families declare their cadet's gender when joining CAP by presenting school ID cards, birth certificates, letters from physicians, and other types of documentation. Cadets who have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, as documented by a physician, are lodged according to their gender identity, the gender they are living as.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: UWONGO2 on April 18, 2022, 05:30:57 PMNHQ/CP has responded to this issue with a new FAQ:

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/parents/overnight-lodging-at-cadet-activities

BLUF: Cadets are billeted based on gender identity

Quote from: CAP/CPWe do not inquire about a cadet's anatomy. Families declare their cadet's gender when joining CAP by presenting school ID cards, birth certificates, letters from physicians, and other types of documentation. Cadets who have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, as documented by a physician, are lodged according to their gender identity, the gender they are living as.


I think the key part that addresses the OP is the following:

Quote from: undefinedOur strategy is to balance two responsibilities: (1) provide an environment that is open to all eligible youth and (2) provide lodging arrangements where every participant feels safe and respected.

Sometimes those two principles seem to be in opposition, but we have found success through commonsense practices, such as

(1)  giving families advance notice of the lodging situation at the facility;

(2)  limiting the need for all persons to dress / undress / shower within sight of others and/or eliminating it altogether;

(3)  welcoming families' special requests; and

(4)  admitting cadets to similar activities in nearby states if the local facility is unacceptable.



Eclipse

Quote from: UWONGO2 on April 18, 2022, 05:30:57 PMNHQ/CP has responded to this issue with a new FAQ:

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/parents/overnight-lodging-at-cadet-activities

BLUF: Cadets are billeted based on gender identity

Quote from: CAP/CPWe do not inquire about a cadet's anatomy. Families declare their cadet's gender when joining CAP by presenting school ID cards, birth certificates, letters from physicians, and other types of documentation. Cadets who have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, as documented by a physician, are lodged according to their gender identity, the gender they are living as.

Your "BLUF" is, in fact, not the BL.

You can't just ignore the 13 words preceding those in red.

"That Others May Zoom"

Spam

Update from the OP. I did get a brief reply from my son's NCSA to the effect that they'll billet three cadets to a hotel room "assigned based on the gender indicated on the application. All cadets will be of the same gender".

My read on that is, they may be different biological sexes but will be assigned based only on what they've put on their approved application. I am not hearing from the reply that staff will require, inspect, or care about doctors notes. It would appear (speaking to the point from Eclipse) that this events staff does not plan to pay attention to those 13 words.

So it comes down to this: as a parent I don't want my son to share hotel room accommodations with a biologically female cadet, and I see two options: one, identify and move that cadet to a separate room, or two, move my son to a room with two males. Either would be acceptable to me as a parent and would seem to be a reasonable request in accordance with policy, as long as the activity is honest about tracking what sex the person is (not what they think they are). If CAP chooses not to do that I think we need to be honest with parents and send this FAQ out VFR direct to all NCSA applicants/parents so they can make the call to pull out, get their refund, and free up the slots for alternates.

R/s
Spam

PS, thanks for posting the new FAQ UWONGO2. 
Based on this, I feel as if the game plan may have changed for my other NCSA (the one I'm helping to staff). If the policy now is that we cannot identify biological, actual males from females to guide reasonable accommodations, (the "we don't inquire about anatomy" part) then I don't want to accept the liability for either my son, or myself by attending or staffing an NCSA under these conditions. My son knows that he may not be refunded the hundreds of dollars he worked to save for this activity, but he at least understands the risk inherent in this.

NovemberWhiskey

Quote from: Spam on April 18, 2022, 11:07:07 PMas a parent I don't want my son to share hotel room accommodations with a biologically female cadet

... then don't send them to a CAP overnight event? I don't know what else to say.

As I understand it, the purpose of "reasonable accommodations" is to make sure that the organization abides by its non-discrimination policy which aims to ensure that, amongst other things, transgender members can participate fully. Those reasonable accommodations are agreed between the cadet, their parents and the activity organizers.

It is not up to other parties to decide whether those accommodations are acceptable to them and require alternate arrangements for themselves or their cadet children. In fact, CAP even has a duty to protect confidential and sensitive information that may involve members with special needs.

I'm sure you think your ask to board your son only with people of his biological sex is reasonable. You can see how asking the organization to work with that is problematic, right? What happens when the next person says they don't want their cadet to board with homosexuals? Or cadets of a different skin color?

NovemberWhiskey

In fact, I would ask that you take a step back, and think how you might feel as a transgender CAP member reading this thread.

"informed consent" - a term taken from the medico-legal context that makes sure patients understand potential risks; this carries the idea that transgender cadets create situations outside the norm that require special consideration from parents of other cadets

"actual male or female", "I refuse to be disingenuous about what a male is", "minority corner cases",  "what sex the person is (not what they think they are)" - all, to a greater or lesser extent, somewhat dismissive of the life experience of transgender people

Spam

Quote from: undefinedIn fact, I would ask that you take a step back, and think how you might feel as a transgender CAP member reading this thread.

"informed consent" - a term taken from the medico-legal context that makes sure patients understand potential risks; this carries the idea that transgender cadets create situations outside the norm that require special consideration from parents of other cadets

"actual male or female", "I refuse to be disingenuous about what a male is", "minority corner cases",  "what sex the person is (not what they think they are)" - all, to a greater or lesser extent, somewhat dismissive of the life experience of transgender people


I sure have, NW. I would hope that those members would reasonably understand that I'm trying to balance their rights to federally funded cadet programs with the equal rights of parents to not have their minors share quarters with the opposite biological sex. No more, no less. No intent to refuse service, kick people out, or otherwise. (Note: please don't throw your anti-gay racist flag on the play, as you don't know MY life experience or arrangements or my actions to support transgender CAP members).

Every member can express their life experience as they wish. So can I. Yes, this is a corner case, it is an experience outside the norm for most cadets, it raises liability issues, and it is a situation that should indeed require awareness by and consideration for the position of other parents.  And as a parent, I have exactly as much right to expect that my dependent not be billeted with the opposite sex. So, either case is acceptable to me: move my son, or move the female gender dysphoric cadet. But todays policy denies that this will happen at CAP overnight activities.

So, tonight, yes, money where mouth is.  I have resigned as an NCSA staff member for ETech rather than accept that personal liability for potentially putting males in with females, and my son has submitted his request for reimbursement for his NCSA. I have asked his AD that his money (his own, p/t job money) be reimbursed.

Tonight I have also shared with my squadrons (including parents) that with this policy there is a non-zero chance that, as with the two transgender cadets at Blue Beret last summer, their daughters may have males in their quarters, and vice versa. I reminded them that policy to preserve equal access for all members to federally funded programs - without exception. So far, 100 percent positive replies (calls, even) thanking me for forwarding this link for awareness. Wing CC is updated also and is working his concerns.

CAP Inc. talks big about risk management and respect. They blew it in the 90s with IACE, permissively allowing cadets to drink underage overseas, with predictable consequences (and I caught major flak then for standing up against knowingly putting cadets into that NCSA, until it was fixed after some bad incidents). My call is that they are blowing it right now, by refusing to fairly and evenly apply the reasonable accommodation policy in a balanced manner. This is a huge liability issue for CAP, for staffers and for cadets.

V/r
Spam

Spam

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on April 19, 2022, 01:52:30 AM
Quote from: Spam on April 18, 2022, 11:07:07 PMas a parent I don't want my son to share hotel room accommodations with a biologically female cadet

It is not up to other parties to decide whether those accommodations are acceptable to them and require alternate arrangements for themselves or their cadet children.

Yes. It is. When their cadet children are the ones directly impacted, it is. Fair and square.

V/r
Spam