Please get rid of the plastic encased ranks

[Al Sayre]

I know of at least one inventive person who just went and bought metal rank, clipped off the pins, laminated it and sewed it to his flight suit...  It looks a little bigger than the ones from the factory, but if you don't know what you are looking for it's very hard to tell.

As an avid 'do it yourself-er,' I'd be interested in how they did it (and made it look decent.)

snip

I think he used one of those hot vacuum laminators like they used to use at the DL office.

[tkelley004]

or try eBay or the requesting on the CAPTalk Marketplace

Problem is, with relatively few exceptions, Lt. Col's usually tend to hang onto their rank. 

I have one set of unused Lt Col's If you want them Email me at tkelley004@yahoo.com

[O-Rex]

or try eBay or the requesting on the CAPTalk Marketplace

Problem is, with relatively few exceptions, Lt. Col's usually tend to hang onto their rank. 

I have one set of unused Lt Col's If you want them Email me at tkelley004@yahoo.com

I'll email or PM you tonight.

Gee what were the chances?

[Gunner C]

If I remember right: The plastic encased ranks came from Air Force Pilots catching particularly their Captain's bars on every little strap and do-hicky and crunching the bars or sheding the bars making for FOD in the plane or on the airfield. The plastic kept the corners of the rank from catching, kept them clean, and kept the pieces together if a gut bust 9 G turn while hanging in the straps bent your rank a little.

So since the Air Force had their reasons for plastic encasment... I'd go with that. That said, the Army has gone to a uniform that has everything from reverse field flag, to rank insignias, to ID badges, and Group patches floating on a carpet of velcro. I suppose that could work on the flight suit too. The Army wants a ready to strip off everything at a moments notice battle uniform... which comes in handy mostly on wash day and so your badges and patches don't fade out. But I suppose theres a limited to how many things the AF wants to hang on a flight suit.
With regards;
1Lt. Ed OBrien
CO Heritage Project Officer

IIRC the rank insignia (not "ranks") before the plastic encased used by the AF were leather and sewn on the sholders.  (My dad was on a B-52 combat crew in the late 50s and that's what what on his flight suit) I don't think that there was ever a time that USAF wore metal insignia on their flight suits (not that I can remember and my military memory goes back to when I was a kid in the late 50s).  I first saw the plastic encased bars, leaves, etc in the mid 60s on an ADC pilot in an orange flight suit.  At the same time, USAF aircrews in Southeast Asia were wearing black-on-green subdued rank insignia.  They hadn't gone over to the brown-for-gold system yet, so Lt Cols had a black leaf w/a thin border of silver around the leaf's outline.  But of course, SEA was a different bear all together.

GC

[Smithsonia]

IIRC the rank insignia (not "ranks") before the plastic encased used by the AF were leather and sewn on the sholders.  (My dad was on a B-52 combat crew in the late 50s and that's what what on his flight suit) I don't think that there was ever a time that USAF wore metal insignia on their flight suits (not that I can remember and my military memory goes back to when I was a kid in the late 50s).


Lt. Col Pierce;
I was speaking of the era that transistioned the prop to jet age (late 40s to Korean War). At one time flightsuits were mostly just coveralls. Simple protection from grease and oil with map pockets and pockets that were open to your own pants underneath. Not much heraldry on the flighsuit because Flightcrews wore their regular uniform (suntans, pinks, greens, etc,) underneath These crews had bars, chickens, leaves, on their shirt collars underneath their flightsuit, mostly in winter, but all metal all the time. When flightsuits came in as a complete, ready to go, all purpose flight uniform... and I do realize that many crews wore flightsuits as all purpose outer gear during WW2 particularly in summer... but let me continue to address this particular time -- In the transisitonal era just after the US Army Air Corps became the US Air Force (see pics of Berlin Air Lift for reference) -- There was all manner of bits and pieces that needed sorting out as FOD producers, which is a problem with jets, not props so much, G suits, tight strap setups, and survival suits changed the layering, with the basic uniform gone, the flightsuit underneath or "base garment", the G-Suit next etc., see photos of Chuck Yeager at the time of his "breaking the sound barrier" as a reference -- you'll see many variations and all at the same time regarding the flight uniform. When a crewman wore his uniform underneath he had his metal on the collar... when he wore his flightsuit as the basic flight garment... he just transfered everything over to the flightsuits collar (see a-4 and AN-S-31 Flightsuits for reference -- all had regular collars for rank) and metal wings to the breast, etc.. That was all settled when the B15"C" flightwear set up became the only approved and consistantly used uniform for flight... items included were underwear, jackets (several kinds depending on degree of cold L2C flight jacket included), flightsuit, gloves, hard-helmet, boots, ballcap, and heraldry were all standardized. Sew-ons were the only accepted heraldry for flight. Back then the B15"C" set up started in 1950 and out in 1957 with the introduction of the M jackets. These were all dark blue and had nothing but patches -- SEE B-36 to B-47 Strategic Air Command Crew Pics for reference.

Sew-ons became the standard after about 1950. I don't remember seeing the plastic encased "offenders" until the mid 70s or early eighties. BUT That era is not my area of expertise. We didn't have them during the Vietnam Era, that I'm aware of, although I'm sure there were exceptions. That's pretty much the sequence deduced from a bunch of photos that I've been looking over. I'm going to the Air Force Academy in June for several weeks of research. I think I'll put a bit of this topic on my list for reference... It's an interesting topic that would best be served if we could dig up Gen. Curtis Lemay and just ask him.
With regards;
1Lt. ED OBRIEN
CO. Heritage Project Officer

[DNall]

I agree, but you can't just put something else on there cause you feel like it. What would happen to uniforms if people started taking that kind of attitude?

I wholeheartedly agree: but with no plastic encased rank available anywhere, you're out of uniform either way.

I'm not advocating that members "wing it" as they see fit,  just that this is a more immediate uniform-related issue to address than the Blue Berets and Ranger regalia currently on the NEC agenda.

BDU/ABU nametapes are a little further out on the horizon, and there's still a few years to beat that horse to death.

CAP has alot of folks in flightsuits, and as members become aircrew, and current aircrew are promoted, we need to give them something to wear from what's currently available.

Sure, I agree with that. Members need to not wear flt suits if they can't get the right items. And, I am a safety advocate of wearing them on missions. Which is another reason I think this is an immediate need.

I did advocate full color on OD background which is avail from several sources off the shelf. Plus has the advantage of being cheaper, easier, and slightly better looking with the same overall appearance as we currently have.

BDUs are not going to change. They're basically frozen in place pending ABUs. We're looking for new background color on ABUs. It'll be something matching the material background, and seeking to minimize the stuff on there in accordance with the example the AF sets for us.

As always, NB/NEC seem to be out of touch with the issues that really need to be addressed. They seem to be obsessed with placating the vocal bling-hounds who tend to be pretty much idiots that make us all look bad in both appearance and attitude. If it were up to me, I'd slap the crap out of PAWG, shut down HMRS for a year, absolutely bar all their bling crap, then allow it to come back as a national activity in conjunction with NESA & pressing forward with meaningful training toward FEMA typing/credentialing standards, etc. I got no problem with a quality school emerging from that process that produces elite leaders & SaR operators, but it'll be humble, inside the box, and responsive/respectful to the chain of command. A simple tab is all real Army ranger school gets, worn over their unit patch. Why is that not enough for these folks.

Blue beret is silly. Sorry to the advocates. It's a big airshow where you turn off a bunch of ELTs. Big deal. That doesn't deserve a beret. I'm not saying it shouldn't be a nat cadet special activity, it should, but it doesn't need any special recognition like a silly hat.

[Hawk200]

......then allow it to come back as a national activity in conjunction with NESA & pressing forward with meaningful training toward FEMA typing/credentialing standards, etc......

Interesting point there. How many of our "hooah, hooah" ES schools include ICS in the curriculum? It needs to be included. Now is the best time to jump in and include that stuff. Gonna need it in the future.

[RiverAux]

If I recall what I was told from a student last year, NESA had a strong ICS compoenent.  Probably never going to have time to do the 300 or 400 courses during NESA though. 

[DNall]

NESA covers all the IC100-800 stuff in their mission staff course or whatever it's called. That's still the equiv of GES though. It's not qualifications for GT or anything else. The point I drive on that issue is that internal training standards will no longer be acceptable for any agency, including CAP. Rather we'll have to meet a single unified standard. Granted, the details are still in flux a bit, but understand they're writing something for firefigters & emts to quickly upgrade to. That's a really long way from where CAP is. We need to get closer to that ballpark so we're ready when that comes about.

Now, that's me talking about what CAP GT needs to do nationwide. If you wanna have some kind of elite school, you need to be way over the top of that. That's not happening right now. They're just doing some scatter shot silliness that doesn't accomplish anything.

[MIKE]

Topic.

[Smithsonia]

Not to go on too much about the subject but... the orginal reason all metal was first removed from the flightsuit collar or blouse... then placed on patches at the sleeves... then (I'm assuming here but am rather confident in this assumption) moved to the shoulder's and encased in plastic... was because in bailing out of a high speed jet v a much lower speed prop... the wind whip of the collar (and in this I mean just fabric with nothing else attached) cut exiting pilots and caused throat and neck damage. Even though I don't have a story of the next assumption... I'll bet you somebody somewhere got their throat cut deeply while their Captain's bars were whipping them on bail out.

As I said, I've probably gone on too much about the topic. BUT, Historians have a lot of otherwise useless information that can rarely be worked into dignified conversation. So we tend to splurge and purge.

With regards;
1Lt. Ed O'Brien
CO WG Heritage Project Officer
Black Sheep Sqn. Historian, Denver

[DNall]

^maybe, but I think it was more related to FOD in the jet age, or frankly just going to a coverall which by design doesn't have a crisp collar.