U.S. Pilot Numbers Dip Below 600,000

Started by A.Member, January 29, 2007, 05:35:16 PM

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RiverAux

These various FAA rulings specifically contradict one of the purposes of CAP set out in federal law:
Quote(2) To provide aviation education and training especially to its senior and cadet members.

Seems to me Congress wanted us to provide aviation training to senior members as well as cadet members.  I don't see anything limiting that to only providing primary flight training to cadets.  That has got to trump any FAA interpretations...

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: Pylon on January 30, 2007, 04:27:06 AM
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 30, 2007, 04:19:42 AM
Is CAP not allowed to instruct ANY adults in their aircraft?  Not even people who are CAP members?

My simple understanding of it is:

No, CAP airplanes are not for hire in that manner and CAP Senior Members can't train for their PPL in CAP aircraft.  CAP SMs Pilots (read: already a qualified pilot with their PPL) can, however, receive instruction in the CAP aircraft towards higher and other ratings.

The only exception is gliders.  An officer can get basic private ticket instruction in a CAP glider.
Another former CAP officer

A.Member

Quote from: DNall on January 30, 2007, 04:07:14 AM
You're 16-25 & want a pilots license, go wash planes at a flight school to work it off. I know at least half a dozen people done it that way, more than any CAP program. You want to go the CAP or traditional route, there's scholarships laying around all over the place. Hell you can mow a couple yards each weekend for a year & pay for the CAP route. It's not hard. Our cadets have plenty of opportunities if they're driven, that being a pretty important aspect of getting thru the training. Every other kid in the world faces the same time & economic restrictions as everyone else.
You've lost me here.  The idea of AE, one of our primary missions, is to promote aerospace.  Based on the numbers, there is a lot of work to be done in this area. 

However, if I'm reading your post correctly, your solution is to throw up your hands and say "get a job"?  Not sure how that helps the situation.  Please correct me if I've misread what you wrote. 

No one is talking a free lunch here.  I'm talking developing interest at the basic level.  It certainly can mushroom from there.  You mention scholarships, I brought this up in one of the early posts as well.  The problem is that many of the scholarships go undelivered for the simple reason that cadets aren't applying for them.  AFA does a great job with funding these, yet, we have to pull teeth to get anyone to apply.  That's where the shift in mindset is needed.   
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

carnold1836

Basically due to my ignorance on this subject, I am fairly new to all this. Where do I find info on this AFA scholarship for flight academies people keep bouncing around. Also other scholarships/sponsorships get talked about as well, info on those would be good as well.

My son will by 16 in '08, I think that is the min age for flight encampment, and I do believe he has the bug for flight just as I do. He loves going on o-rides, even if it is just back seat. I think it would be neat for him to start on his ticket.

I still think there is enough brain power in CAP and this cyber squadron in particular to be able to come up with a way to Sr Officers flight training at a greatly reduced cost as well.

Heck we have enough brains to put warp technology on the map!! ::)
Chris Arnold, 1st Lt, CAP
Pegasus Composite Squadron

A.Member

"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

DNall

Quote from: A.Member on January 30, 2007, 05:56:45 AM
Quote from: DNall on January 30, 2007, 04:07:14 AM
You're 16-25 & want a pilots license, go wash planes at a flight school to work it off. I know at least half a dozen people done it that way, more than any CAP program. You want to go the CAP or traditional route, there's scholarships laying around all over the place. Hell you can mow a couple yards each weekend for a year & pay for the CAP route. It's not hard. Our cadets have plenty of opportunities if they're driven, that being a pretty important aspect of getting thru the training. Every other kid in the world faces the same time & economic restrictions as everyone else.
You've lost me here.  The idea of AE, one of our primary missions, is to promote aerospace.  Based on the numbers, there is a lot of work to be done in this area. 

However, if I'm reading your post correctly, your solution is to throw up your hands and say "get a job"?  Not sure how that helps the situation.  Please correct me if I've misread what you wrote. 

No one is talking a free lunch here.  I'm talking developing interest at the basic level.  It certainly can mushroom from there.  You mention scholarships, I brought this up in one of the early posts as well.  The problem is that many of the scholarships go undelivered for the simple reason that cadets aren't applying for them.  AFA does a great job with funding these, yet, we have to pull teeth to get anyone to apply.  That's where the shift in mindset is needed.   
I believe we were specifically speaking about the decline in pilot numbers & how we can get more of our members rated, and secondarily more of th egeneral public. I hate to tell you this, but AE doesn't involve giving people a PPL for free, or anything to do with being pilot at all for that matter.

We want strong Aerospace in the US. That means manufactures, airlines, commercial flying, people traveling by air, public support for got assistance to local & regional airports, aviation safety, & most of all public support for strong airpower compenents in all branches of the military & particularly the AF. While a national decline in pilots MAY be an indicator of not doing well in that mission, it isn't in itself the mission.

If adults want to be pilots, there are financing options out there. We MAY be able to get some outside help with that financing as a benefit of membership, but it'll still be expensive & once you're rated it'll be economically limiting just like it is for everyone else. If you're a kid & want to be a pilot - I mean really want to, not having a little whim that you ight like to toy with a bit, but you're actually committed & driven - then there are lots of very affordable options out there that you parents might be willing to invest on, or you can earn some money & pay for it yourself, no dif than saving or working for a car.

A.Member

#26
Quote from: DNall on January 30, 2007, 05:37:17 PM
I believe we were specifically speaking about the decline in pilot numbers & how we can get more of our members rated, and secondarily more of th egeneral public. I hate to tell you this, but AE doesn't involve giving people a PPL for free, or anything to do with being pilot at all for that matter.
No, while that was part of the conversation, that really wasn't the point at all.  And again, no one, other than yourself, is talking about providing free tickets here.  I'm not really certain I understand why you brought that up again.

In reading back, it appears I didn't make the point very clear but the purpose was to state that the interest in GA, and aviation as a whole, appears to be at risk.  Actual numbers illustrating the decrease in pilots were used as evidence to this.  The average ages of these pilots is also indicates that perhaps there are not enough young people taking part.  In addition, we have GA airports disappearing in the middle of the night and the NIMBY crowd opposing any further expansion.  I'd argue that much of this is not understood by most people – or maybe they don't care.  So, to counter this, what can we as an organization do to help change this trend?  That indeed is part of the AE mission.

Quote from: DNall on January 30, 2007, 05:37:17 PMWe want strong Aerospace in the US. That means manufactures, airlines, commercial flying, people traveling by air, public support for got assistance to local & regional airports, aviation safety, & most of all public support for strong airpower compenents in all branches of the military & particularly the AF. While a national decline in pilots MAY be an indicator of not doing well in that mission, it isn't in itself the mission.
Based on some of your statements, you appear to be looking at AE in a very narrow scope.  In reality, the objective of AE is quite broad. 
QuoteAerospace Education is defined as that branch of general education concerned with communicating knowledge, skills, and attitudes about aerospace activities and the total impact of air and space vehicles upon society.

The goal of the AE program as stated is:
QuoteTo provide an organization to encourage and aid American citizens in contributing their efforts, services, and resources in developing aviation and in maintaining air supremacy.
and
QuoteTo provide aviation education and training especially to its senior and cadet members.

Further:
QuoteCAP members are obligated to involve themselves in aerospace education. Members are required to:
(1) Be informed on aerospace developments and issues.
(2) Speak out on aerospace matters at appropriate formal occasions and during informal daily contacts.
(3) Share aerospace knowledge and experiences with other CAP members and the general public.

It was never implied that the purpose of AE was to get every member a ticket.  And while getting more of our members tickets certainly could be a goal (see the goals listed above), I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle over it.  What was implied is that sharing the experience of flight with a greater number of people certainly could be a way to help improve the situation. 

The basic thought is that by increasing overall interest and enthusiasm for aviation in our cadets, not to mention our communities, we'll see an increase in pilot numbers.  The current approach (whatever that is) does not appear to be effective.  Easing the economic burden of obtaining a certificate was suggested as only one way to help address the issue.  In no way was it ever implied that there aren't other aspects to AE or ways to also address the issue.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

DNall

If you'll look, two-thirds of this thread w/ post by pretty well everyone focus on getting peopel ticketed, epscifically focused on our members firs t& the general public as an after thought.

I understand the overall objectives of AE & that this data is to an extent an indicator that the public is less interested in on aspect of aviation - ie actually being the pilot themselves. It however is not derteminative of the overall public understanding of aviation as a critical part of US dominance in the world. To the extent you want to look at this factor you have to ask if the public isn't getting enough education to fire them up about aviation, or if it's another factor, like economics, that prevents more people from taking part.

You also have to ask yourself WHY this mission is tasked to us by Congress & the AF. That's important because it shapes how you interpret each of those statements you quoted. What does the AF gain by our doing this? What desperately important thing does Congress want accomplished thru this program? You have to answer those for yourself before you can decide what AE (or anything about CAP for that matter) is about, cause they didn't put it there for fun.

I've been quite involved w/ AE in the past, done AE workshops at schools, been to a couple NCASEs & spent a lot of time with Scott Crossfield at those. That's one of the opportunities CAP has given me that I greatly treasure. I'm not an AE officer though & wouldn't know how to be one. I don't personally care about flying other than as a mode of transportation or to put steal on target. I know the AE mission is important, but it requires an expert that I'm not. I've made contributions there to the extent of my knowledge & ability, and I've applied my personal expertise to the other areas where it better applies.

Also, just as a point of order:
QuoteTo provide aviation education and training especially to its senior and cadet members.
Does NOT mean pilot training. It means AE. Pilot training may fall into that as one meager & optional way of contributing to that, but it is not what the statement is about.

lordmonar

Quote from: A.Member on January 29, 2007, 05:35:16 PMI find these numbers rather concerning.  Given that one of our missions is to promote aviation, how can we help?  We can help lead the way in turning these numbers around.

Allow instruction for SMs and cadets in CAP aircraft?

One of the major factors is cost.  What 21 year old has $5-8K needed to pay for flight school.  But we got a lot of CFIs and CAP planes.

Also encourage and budget for cadet flight training (not just o-rides).
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

A.Member

#29
Quote from: DNall on January 30, 2007, 08:21:29 PM
You also have to ask yourself WHY this mission is tasked to us by Congress & the AF. That's important because it shapes how you interpret each of those statements you quoted. What does the AF gain by our doing this? What desperately important thing does Congress want accomplished thru this program? You have to answer those for yourself before you can decide what AE (or anything about CAP for that matter) is about, cause they didn't put it there for fun.
Actually, we don't really need to ask the question.  Direction is already provided for us.  Not only in the statements I quoted earlier but also in the following statement from the AE Handbook:
QuoteIn the early years of the 21st century, America's aerospace industry is facing some tough challenges. Experienced aerospace industry workers are aging, averaging over 50 years of age.  Meanwhile, the number of college graduates with science and engineering degrees going into aerospace careers is declining significantly.  What can America do?

We, in Civil Air Patrol, play an important role in this aerospace dilemma. We have the expertise and the products to make a huge difference for our organization and for our country. It doesn't take us long to realize the importance of aviation and space knowledge and the positive impact that knowledge can have on our nation. It all starts with our children, with our CAP units and with America's schools. From the very beginning of their education, students need to be exposed to the wonders of aerospace...
As I mentioned, IMO your view seems too narrowly focused.  You don't need to read into things so much, rather, you can take them at face value.  

Quote from: DNall on January 30, 2007, 08:21:29 PMAlso, just as a point of order:
QuoteTo provide aviation education and training especially to its senior and cadet members.
... It means AE. Pilot training may fall into that as one...optional way of contributing to that...
That's essentially what I said earlier.  

Curious as to why you have such an apparent objection to the concept of promoting aerospace - whether it be helping more people get a ticket or simply raising awareness of aviation's importance amongst our kids and community?  So, you don't want more people to get their tickets, fair enough.  What can/should we do to increase overall interest?
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

RiverAux

QuoteDoes NOT mean pilot training. It means AE. Pilot training may fall into that as one meager & optional way of contributing to that, but it is not what the statement is about.

"aviation training" seems very clear to me.  Keep in mind that at the time that was written it wasn't too far in the past that CAP was providing primary flight instruction to tens of thousands of people. 

I'm certainly not saying that this should be a major focus of CAP, but I think restrictions placed on senior member flight training by the FAA run afoul of this law. 

afgeo4

Can CAP provide grants and assistance to flight schools who become AE members in order to promote flight training for CAP Officers and adults in general? What about providing flight scholarships for such officers?

I think if we had better official relationships with flight schools we might end up recruiting more qualified pilots and offer new pilots a place to fly cheaper and for a purpose.
GEORGE LURYE

afgeo4

I'd hate to tell you this guys, but most high school students that graduate today take basic physics. Those who do, understand basic principles of flight, be it soaring, powered, or rocket propulsion. In fact, nuclear powered flight is mentioned in today's texbooks.

We can no longer target students graduating from HS as people who don't know much about aerospace. They do. We do target kids who are younger and do it well. In fact, we are moving lower and lower in age. However, how will that help us if these young adults will end their air and space exploration at the same time they graduate from HS? I think we need to make sure that young adults in college and afterwards fall in love with flying, not flight concepts. People learn about what they like, not the other way around. 

Example: I learned calculus and I still can't stand it. I loved cooking and taking cooking classes was a blast!

Get it?  Make them love flying and then teach them about it. Not the other way around.
GEORGE LURYE

flyguy06

The only issue with training in CAP aircraft is getting CFI's dedicated enough to give consistant training for free. You are going to ask a guy to train you to fly on his time for free. Remember a CFI is a professional. Would you ask a Doctor to give you a check up for free? Would you ask a lawyer to repreent you in court for free? They do a little bit here and there when they can find time. But a full out program. That will be hard to fine.

lordmonar

Quote from: flyguy06 on February 12, 2007, 06:25:56 PM
The only issue with training in CAP aircraft is getting CFI's dedicated enough to give consistant training for free. You are going to ask a guy to train you to fly on his time for free. Remember a CFI is a professional. Would you ask a Doctor to give you a check up for free? Would you ask a lawyer to repreent you in court for free? They do a little bit here and there when they can find time. But a full out program. That will be hard to fine.

But when a CFI joins CAP...there should not be any (or not too many anyway) restricitons on him if he wants to donate his time for free.  This is no different when we ask a minister to be a CAP chaplain, a doctor to be a mission base medical officer or a lawyer to take up JA duties.

An ideal squadron should have a training guy in the operations/stand eval section....and it would be idea for that individual to be a CFI.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

DNall

Just that pesky thing with the FAA so flight schools can stay in business, that prevents us from using CAP planes. Now if a CFI in CAP or otherwise wants to teach you for free in a non-CAP plane, then have at it. I thnk what you'll find though is VERY few CFIs are willing to donate that service for adults. Kids are one thing, but this is their job & adults have jobs they can pay for training with.

flyguy06

Quote from: lordmonar on February 12, 2007, 07:29:09 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 12, 2007, 06:25:56 PM
The only issue with training in CAP aircraft is getting CFI's dedicated enough to give consistant training for free. You are going to ask a guy to train you to fly on his time for free. Remember a CFI is a professional. Would you ask a Doctor to give you a check up for free? Would you ask a lawyer to repreent you in court for free? They do a little bit here and there when they can find time. But a full out program. That will be hard to fine.

But when a CFI joins CAP...there should not be any (or not too many anyway) restricitons on him if he wants to donate his time for free.  This is no different when we ask a minister to be a CAP chaplain, a doctor to be a mission base medical officer or a lawyer to take up JA duties.

An ideal squadron should have a training guy in the operations/stand eval section....and it would be idea for that individual to be a CFI.

Oh, I agree there should be no restriction by CAP. I am just saying it will be hard to find a CAP CFI willing to devote a entire tsining program to someone. He maight fly with you a few times a month, but 40 hours? I dont see that.