Cadet Orientation Flights

[Short Field]

I recently start helping with O'rides.  One question I can't seem to find an answer to is "how often should a cadet get a O'ride"?   Should I provide Cadet Z with all five powered rides within the first six months of membership?  What are your squadrons doing?

[EMT-83]

Several factors...

Do you have access to aircraft on a regular basis, or do you have to make special arrangements to get cadets and planes together? If so, getting them done while you have the resources makes sense.

The age of the cadet is important. I know of cadets who turned 18 without getting all of their flights done. They just never got around to it before it was too late.

My son is 15 and has a couple of flights left. He's in no hurry to complete them, but does the occasional 99 ride in the back seat just to get into the air.

Guess there's no hard and fast rule.

[NC Hokie]

I recently start helping with O'rides.  One question I can't seem to find an answer to is "how often should a cadet get a O'ride"?   Should I provide Cadet Z with all five powered rides within the first six months of membership?  What are your squadrons doing?

For me, less flights equals higher priority.  A cadet that burns all five front seat rides would be encouraged to pursue other opportunities and allowed to fly as ballast (back seat) whenever circumstances allow.

[Short Field]

I have three local CAP airplanes I can schedule.  If they all end up grounded, I have my own C-182 I can fly them in.  If I don't get another pilot to volunteer to fly, I can fly them. 

 

[DC]

I have seen both, and have found that cadets that do them a little less frequently (say, one front seat ride every quarter, with a few 99 rides inbetween) can enjoy the program longer, and still get the benefit of it. Cadets that burn through all 5 flights quickly are then stuck in the back seat or on the ground while all their buddies are up stil flying. If the cadet is older and can pursue real flight training in the near future, then it is less of an issue.

A balance between too often, but not so far apart that they lose interest is what I have seen work best.

[NC Hokie]

Do you have access to aircraft on a regular basis, or do you have to make special arrangements to get cadets and planes together? If so, getting them done while you have the resources makes sense.

That's an important consideration in squadrons that don't have their own plane.  Although I'd prefer to space the rides out as much as possible, I have to put the the cadet with four rides in her first year on the schedule if she's the difference between getting the plane or telling everyone else that they won't be flying after all.

[Short Field]

I have to put the the cadet with four rides in her first year on the schedule if she's the difference between getting the plane or telling everyone else that they won't be flying after all.

Why would that happen?  (something tells me I will not like the answer....)

[Eclipse]

I have to put the the cadet with four rides in her first year on the schedule if she's the difference between getting the plane or telling everyone else that they won't be flying after all.

Why would that happen?  (something tells me I will not like the answer....)

Despite the assertions by some to the contrary, it can be a real challenge to get cadets to show up, which becomes a downward spiral of pilots not wanting to waste their time scheduling the plane, etc., to show up to an empty hanger.

In most wings you have to have "x" cadets in order to get funding to move the plane (which is not included with the O-Ride reimbursement). 

[NC Hokie]

I have to put the the cadet with four rides in her first year on the schedule if she's the difference between getting the plane or telling everyone else that they won't be flying after all.

Why would that happen?  (something tells me I will not like the answer....)

If the pilot says I have to have six cadets to justify a ferry flight to my location and I can't guarantee six cadets he won't come.

[Short Field]

Seems like it should be the Wing determining if a ferry flight is justified or not, not a pilot.   Thankfully, I don't need to worry about ferry flights.

I had a cadet no-show last week.  The Squadron Commander has decided to suspend cadets from future o'rides if they fail to show up as scheduled and fail to notify the PIC in advance that they cannot make the o'ride.     

[Eclipse]

Seems like it should be the Wing determining if a ferry flight is justified or not, not a pilot.

It is - at least in my wing - but its generally the pilot setting things up and negotiating ferry time with the wing OIC, and telling the commander or whoever that you have to have "x" cadets to justify the ferry.

[davidsinn]

I've been appointed group AE and have been assigned to schedule o-rides for my group. I have been given a budget and told that ferry fuel comes out of that budget. It's in my best interest to do as many flights as possible at one time to minimize ferry times. My plan is to pull multiple aircraft and as many cadets as possible to one location to all but eliminate ferry times.

Using my budget and current fuel prices I have about 26 hours of flying that I need to spread over 103 cadets. It looks like I could easily use three aircraft for a full eight hour day of flying and get 24 front seat rides and 48 back seat rides.

With those numbers I can only fly 2/3s of my cadets. Only a quarter of my 103 would get front seat rides.

[RiverAux]

Taking into consideration that most cadets last less than a year (ref CAP's 33% 1st year cadet retention rate), I'd say that I would try to "front load" flights so that there are at least 2 or 3 in the first year.  Obviously, getting them this benefit right away might help with retention, but even if they end up non-renewing we've still gotten that kid in the air a few times, so it is still a win as far as I'm concerned. 

[Thrashed]

CAPP 52-7 says, "Squadron commanders should try to provide each new cadet with an orientation flight within 60 days of joinging CAP.  Squadron commanders should also strive to provide each cadet with at least 1, but preferably 2, flights per year by conducting orientation flight days once per quarter."

I've seen many cadets turn 18 and not finish all their rides.  I'd strive to get them done before age 18, as they cannot do them after turning 18 (see CAPP 52-7).  I push them to get them done as fast as they can, which takes longer than they think.

[Eclipse]

I've seen many cadets turn 18 and not finish all their rides. 

Sadly I have met a number of cadets and seniors who went their entire CAP career without ever seeing a CAP plane, let alone riding in one.

[SarDragon]

I have a 30 on my red service ribbon, and I'm still waiting for my first cadet O-ride. 

[davidsinn]

I've seen many cadets turn 18 and not finish all their rides. 

Sadly I have met a number of cadets and seniors who went their entire CAP career without ever seeing a CAP plane, let alone riding in one.

I have my MS trainee that expires this year and I have yet to ride in a corporate plane.

[flyguy06]

I would spread it out. If you got a cadet all 5 powered O rides in six months, well then what? Keep it exciting for them.

I do think that every cadet should have an  O ride within joining CAP

[flyguy06]

I've seen many cadets turn 18 and not finish all their rides. 

Sadly I have met a number of cadets and seniors who went their entire CAP career without ever seeing a CAP plane, let alone riding in one.

Thats is sad.

[flyguy06]

I have to put the the cadet with four rides in her first year on the schedule if she's the difference between getting the plane or telling everyone else that they won't be flying after all.

Why would that happen?  (something tells me I will not like the answer....)

Despite the assertions by some to the contrary, it can be a real challenge to get cadets to show up, which becomes a downward spiral of pilots not wanting to waste their time scheduling the plane, etc., to show up to an empty hanger.

In most wings you have to have "x" cadets in order to get funding to move the plane (which is not included with the O-Ride reimbursement).

I have never had a problem with cadets showing up for O rides. i guess its different per area, but most cadets in my unit join because they want to fly.

[sparks]

I don't understand cadets failing to show up for O-rides but I have experienced it,  first hand. We take down POC phone numbers for each cadet so the pilot or coordinator can call them as flight time nears and they haven't appeared. That at least gives the O-ride personnel a chance to rearrange their day.

We try to prioritize cadets by how many O-rides they have received. Anyone without a ride comes first.

Ferry time, if needed, is limited to 25% of the total flight time for the day.

[flyguy06]

Oh, so your cadets show up when its time for them to fly? What we do is make it an activity for the day. All the cadets participating inthe O rides show up at 0900. A flight manifest is already made. Those that are flying go out and fly. those not flying are in ground school until its time for them to fly. Once they get back fro their flight, they go into the ground school.

We have a senior member that teaches ground subjects like aerodynamics, how to get weather reports, airspace, radio comunications with ground and tower and approach/departure, how to navigate using VOR's and so forth. We also take them over to the FBO and show them how to check the weather and read a METAR and a TAF.

We also assign a cadet safety who gives a morning brief and a cadet weather guy who reads the curent METAR.

[CASH172]

Generally, the day long o-flight activities with the cadets seem to work out better.  Cadets don't just get in the plane and leave, they actually gain knowledge that further expands what they got in the air.  No-showing will happen.  My school charges $100 for no-showing the first time and people still do it. 

I only did 2 of my o-flights before I turned 18.  I certainly had the opportunity to do more, but after having soloed and continuing on, I felt it was better if I turned my seats over to other cadets.  Priority should be given to those with fewer flights or those that are nearing 18.  Spacing isn't a bad idea, but most cadets tend to not get their full 5 before that 18th birthday.

[Thrashed]

I would love to see an all-day O-flight happen.  We can barely get anyone (cadets or SMs) to go, so I just have them show up for thier time slot.  I can't have cadets sitting around unsupervised or bored all day.  Another problem is their busy schedule.  It's hard to get a whole day open to fly .6 hours. Maybe two half days: you get the morning or afternoon for flying and some ground school.? 

[sparks]

All day O-ride events work great for glider flights. In fact it wouldn't be possible to do it any other way because of all the ground support required.

I've never scheduled powered "O"-rides and ground school together. We usually have the ground school on a meeting night with flights the following weekend.

Dedicating an entire day to O-rides with all the cadets available is great if the senior support staff has training scheduled to keep everyone occupied. Busy cadet schedules could be worked around as long as the activity had a long lead time.

[EMT-83]

We did an O-flight day last week for a dozen new cadets. With 2 planes and 4 pilots, we did 12 flights. Every cadet got a front seat ride and two in the back.

Four of our high-speed cadets taught ES skills during down time, so everyone was kept busy, and they got some good experience as instructors.

In addition to the pilots, there were two seniors supervising the cadets and me doing the record keeping. It was a lot of work, but probably more efficient than chasing down cadets one by one.

[flyguy06]

We did an O-flight day last week for a dozen new cadets. With 2 planes and 4 pilots, we did 12 flights. Every cadet got a front seat ride and two in the back.

Four of our high-speed cadets taught ES skills during down time, so everyone was kept busy, and they got some good experience as instructors.

In addition to the pilots, there were two seniors supervising the cadets and me doing the record keeping. It was a lot of work, but probably more efficient than chasing down cadets one by one.

I am just curious, why did you decide to incorporate ES training in a flying activity?

[flyguy06]

I would love to see an all-day O-flight happen.  We can barely get anyone (cadets or SMs) to go, so I just have them show up for thier time slot.  I can't have cadets sitting around unsupervised or bored all day.  Another problem is their busy schedule.  It's hard to get a whole day open to fly .6 hours. Maybe two half days: you get the morning or afternoon for flying and some ground school.?

You could have another Senior Member teaching ground school. O rides shouldnt be a chore. It should an activity cadets look forward to doing. If they really want to do it, they will make the time.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I've seen many cadets turn 18 and not finish all their rides. 

Sadly I have met a number of cadets and seniors who went their entire CAP career without ever seeing a CAP plane, let alone riding in one.

Orientation Flights 

Type    Flight Date

6   30 Apr 2005
9   08 Oct 2006
6   10 Oct 2004
99   10 Oct 2004
7   11 Dec 2005
99   11 Dec 2005

Was no big deal. As an older cadet I've turned down a number of opportunities to let younger/newer cadets get a ride. Also note that my first Flight was 10 Oct 2004, though I've been a member since May 2003.

Then again, I didn't participate in CAP for the Cessna flights either.

[davidsinn]

We did an O-flight day last week for a dozen new cadets. With 2 planes and 4 pilots, we did 12 flights. Every cadet got a front seat ride and two in the back.

Four of our high-speed cadets taught ES skills during down time, so everyone was kept busy, and they got some good experience as instructors.

In addition to the pilots, there were two seniors supervising the cadets and me doing the record keeping. It was a lot of work, but probably more efficient than chasing down cadets one by one.

I am just curious, why did you decide to incorporate ES training in a flying activity?

Why not? Last time we had O-rides I ran a flightline and got a lot of training done for people. I didn't see the point in having a corporate plane there and not using and abusing the poor pilots . I must say that for not expecting it the pilots were really good sports about it.

I think you're getting at why not do aero ed right? For me I didn't want to have to keep going back over things to catch people up.

[flyguy06]

Not so much aero ed. But It seems a lot of folks feel the need to incorporate ES into "every" actvitythey have. I know cadets as well as senior members that go their whole CAP career and never see a 101 card. have no clue what gen ES is nor do they have an interest.

[davidsinn]

Not so much aero ed. But It seems a lot of folks feel the need to incorporate ES into "every" actvitythey have. I know cadets as well as senior members that go their whole CAP career and never see a 101 card. have no clue what gen ES is nor do they have an interest.

That's true but you have to have something to amuse the natives with. ES is something that is pretty easy to fill in with.

[flyguy06]

Not so much aero ed. But It seems a lot of folks feel the need to incorporate ES into "every" actvitythey have. I know cadets as well as senior members that go their whole CAP career and never see a 101 card. have no clue what gen ES is nor do they have an interest.

That's true but you have to have something to amuse the natives with. ES is something that is pretty easy to fill in with.

Why not amuse them withsomething aviation related. many cadets love to talk about lift, weight, thrust, and drag. Or talk about what you say to ground control b4 you taxi and talking to Tower control. There are many aviation related taopics you can use to entertain cadets., Especially if you are at an aviation event. I just dont get why every cadet activity has to incorportae ground team or flight marshlling in it.

[davidsinn]

Not so much aero ed. But It seems a lot of folks feel the need to incorporate ES into "every" actvitythey have. I know cadets as well as senior members that go their whole CAP career and never see a 101 card. have no clue what gen ES is nor do they have an interest.

That's true but you have to have something to amuse the natives with. ES is something that is pretty easy to fill in with.

Why not amuse them withsomething aviation related. many cadets love to talk about lift, weight, thrust, and drag. Or talk about what you say to ground control b4 you taxi and talking to Tower control. There are many aviation related taopics you can use to entertain cadets., Especially if you are at an aviation event. I just dont get why every cadet activity has to incorportae ground team or flight marshlling in it.

I'm not disagreeing with you but I can only speak for my cadets in that their eyes tend to glaze over with that stuff. They like to DO things. Besides that's about the only ES we get around here and I have to do something with that or people start breathing down my neck. Something about three missions and all that jazz...

[flyguy06]

Not so much aero ed. But It seems a lot of folks feel the need to incorporate ES into "every" actvitythey have. I know cadets as well as senior members that go their whole CAP career and never see a 101 card. have no clue what gen ES is nor do they have an interest.

That's true but you have to have something to amuse the natives with. ES is something that is pretty easy to fill in with.

Why not amuse them withsomething aviation related. many cadets love to talk about lift, weight, thrust, and drag. Or talk about what you say to ground control b4 you taxi and talking to Tower control. There are many aviation related taopics you can use to entertain cadets., Especially if you are at an aviation event. I just dont get why every cadet activity has to incorportae ground team or flight marshlling in it.

I'm not disagreeing with you but I can only speak for my cadets in that their eyes tend to glaze over with that stuff. They like to DO things. Besides that's about the only ES we get around here and I have to do something with that or people start breathing down my neck. Something about three missions and all that jazz...

I understand about the three missions but you wouldnt do ELTtraining and then stop and vist and FBO and talk abotu METAR's

If the cadets are glaxzing over aerodynamics then they arent really interested in in My cadets are just the opposite, Most of them want to be airline piots someday so when we talk aviation, they love it. If we started talking about 24 hour packs and surviabl, their atention span would drain quickly., i guess it depends on the kind of cadets you have and their interest.

[SarDragon]

Not so much aero ed. But It seems a lot of folks feel the need to incorporate ES into "every" actvitythey have. I know cadets as well as senior members that go their whole CAP career and never see a 101 card. have no clue what gen ES is nor do they have an interest.

That's true but you have to have something to amuse the natives with. ES is something that is pretty easy to fill in with.

Why not amuse them withsomething aviation related. many cadets love to talk about lift, weight, thrust, and drag. Or talk about what you say to ground control b4 you taxi and talking to Tower control. There are many aviation related taopics you can use to entertain cadets., Especially if you are at an aviation event. I just dont get why every cadet activity has to incorportae ground team or flight marshlling in it.

Doing flight line marshalling is BOTH aviation AND ES related. The lessons I learned in that area as a cadet were extremely useful to me during the early part of my Navy career. I don't think they are saying "every" activity, but why not practice it when you can? Most of the cadets I've taught it to have found it to be fun and interesting.

Oh, yeah, if they want to be pilots, they ought to know this stuff, anyway.

[EMT-83]

I am just curious, why did you decide to incorporate ES training in a flying activity?

Pretty simple - it was a weekday event, held while the cadets were on school vacation. We were lucky to get the seniors we did to participate, and had qualified cadets available to cover ES skills.

[flyguy06]

Cool