Is a Venture Crew Good or Bad?

[2ltAlexD]

Hi there everyone. The squadron that I'm in is thinking about becoming a venture crew. Is this bad or good? I'm not sure what to think about it, because I don't know if I want people to think of CAP as the boyscouts. Not that there's anything wrong with them, I just want it to be about the auxiliary part more, but maybe it'll be good for the cadets?

[RiverAux]

Why is your squadron considering it?  What do they think they will get with this affiliation that they aren't getting with CAP?  There are all sorts of venturing situations so whether it is good or bad depends on what you're going to do.

[2ltAlexD]

Why is your squadron considering it?  What do they think they will get with this affiliation that they aren't getting with CAP?  There are all sorts of venturing situations so whether it is good or bad depends on what you're going to do.

I'm not exactly sure. They say its for recruiting and to add more stuff the cadets can do like camps and different trips.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Why is your squadron considering it?  What do they think they will get with this affiliation that they aren't getting with CAP?  There are all sorts of venturing situations so whether it is good or bad depends on what you're going to do.

I'm not exactly sure. They say its for recruiting and to add more stuff the cadets can do like camps and different trips.

According to CAPR 52-16, those boy scouts that want to be part of the venture crew MUST be members of CAP.  Your squadron will hold the charter and therefore by regulation they must be members.

You will get all of the "Aux" stuff that you want, and a little more, such as better places to hold your campouts, like the local BSA camps.

Look at this two fold.  If your squadron or wing rejects an idea you have for an activity that the BSA allows their scouts to preform, you can file paperwork for the BSA insurance and be covered.  I think it is a good thing to have multiple options in this case.

Also recruiting will be bolstered by the fact that Venture Crews are new to Central Iowa, and they want to expand.  BSA will help with your recruiting, also as the new venture scouts join, they have to join your squadron by regulation.....

[Airrace]

Why is your squadron considering it?  What do they think they will get with this affiliation that they aren't getting with CAP?  There are all sorts of venturing situations so whether it is good or bad depends on what you're going to do.

I'm not exactly sure. They say its for recruiting and to add more stuff the cadets can do like camps and different trips.

According to CAPR 52-16, those boy scouts that want to be part of the venture crew MUST be members of CAP.  Your squadron will hold the charter and therefore by regulation they must be members.

You will get all of the "Aux" stuff that you want, and a little more, such as better places to hold your campouts, like the local BSA camps.

Look at this two fold.  If your squadron or wing rejects an idea you have for an activity that the BSA allows their scouts to preform, you can file paperwork for the BSA insurance and be covered.  I think it is a good thing to have multiple options in this case.

Also recruiting will be bolstered by the fact that Venture Crews are new to Central Iowa, and they want to expand.  BSA will help with your recruiting, also as the new venture scouts join, they have to join your squadron by regulation.....

Interesting idea!

[Major Lord]

Rifles, repelling, great facilities, activity insurance, and of course, more "flair" for the uniform. There is an age limit,  so be prepared (no Scout pun intended) for a little culture shock.

Major Lord

[Eclipse]

According to CAPR 52-16, those boy scouts that want to be part of the venture crew MUST be members of CAP.  Your squadron will hold the charter and therefore by regulation they must be members.

Cite please.

The requirement for CAP to be the host of the charter is correct, but I'm not aware of any requirement for the Ventures to join CAP anymore than the cadets have to join the Ventures.

They simply participate in joint activities via their respective membership.

To the original question, this is another "neat" idea I"m not a big fan of - it was created to enable CAP access to BSA facilities.  Its always cited as a "recruiting tool", but doesn't really offer that much in that area - most Venture Scouts are going to be too engaged in the BSA to be interested in CAP.

Few really unique or interesting CAP opportunities are open to the Ventures - no O-Rides, missions, encampments, NCSA's, IACE's, and shared activities might open up somewhat, but that doesn't relieve CAP's conservative rules and more rigid structure.

Remember, the BSA is much more a social and family organization than CAP - the assumption is that mom and dad are along for the ride if they feel like it, not so, of course in CAP.  My personal experience has been that cadets see the Ventures at meetings having "fun", while they are standing at attention and studying AE tests, and those who are on the fence regarding CAP sometimes jump ship to the Ventures.

And when the choice is lax vs. increased discipline to make one group match the others "timbre", which way do you think it usually goes?

I've seen the same thing happen with seniors when you start doing too much joint work with EMA's, CERT teams, or homegrown "medical response teams".  Fewer hoops and less structure makes them look more attractive (even if in the end those other agencies never get called).

At least one commander I discussed this with said "well, if that's what they want, why should we stop them..?"  The answer is "we shouldn't stop them, but as a Commander its your job to maintain readiness and strength, not act as a clearinghouse for other agencies and organizations."

Some things to consider when you're meeting with the Venture leaders...

[arajca]

According to CAPR 52-16, those boy scouts that want to be part of the venture crew MUST be members of CAP.  Your squadron will hold the charter and therefore by regulation they must be members.

Cite please.

The requirement for CAP to be the host of the charter is correct, but I'm not aware of any requirement for the Ventures to join CAP anymore than the cadets have to join the Ventures.

6-2. CAP Policy for Dual-Chartering With the Boy Scouts of America. CAP and the Venturing and Varsity divisions of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) have much in common. CAP encourages dual membership in both CAP and BSA as either a Varsity Scouting Team or Venturing Crew, with CAP being the chartered partner. By being the chartered partner, CAP is the basis for the union; therefore, members first belong to CAP. The existing CAP structure does not change and all members will conform to CAP standards and wear the CAP uniform.

Emphasis mine.

[Eclipse]

6-2. CAP Policy for Dual-Chartering With the Boy Scouts of America. CAP and the Venturing and Varsity divisions of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) have much in common. CAP encourages dual membership in both CAP and BSA as either a Varsity Scouting Team or Venturing Crew, with CAP being the chartered partner. By being the chartered partner, CAP is the basis for the union; therefore, members first belong to CAP. The existing CAP structure does not change and all members will conform to CAP standards and wear the CAP uniform.

Emphasis mine.

Yes - CAP Members, which means when questions arise our rules and regs trump theirs - note the word "encourages" not "requires".  From reading the full text, it appears the CAP members have to join the BSA, but there's no requirement the BSA members join CAP.

How would you even enforce the requirement for dual membership?

"Hi, we're from CAP, we want to use your campground, so if you'll just sign here and have all your members send a check for about $70 to his address we can get things started..."

[majdomke]

The existing CAP structure does not change and all members will conform to CAP standards and wear the CAP uniform.

It's kinda hard to be a Venture crew member without being in CAP as well... we don't allow non-members to wear our uniforms.

[Eclipse]

The existing CAP structure does not change and all members will conform to CAP standards and wear the CAP uniform.

It's kinda hard to be a Venture crew member without being in CAP as well... we don't allow non-members to wear our uniforms.

All CAP Members will wear CAP uniforms.  The idea here is that CAP members can't participate in Venture activities as CAP members in a BSA uniform.  Actually, I still don't see a membership requirement tin either direction.  The cadets stay cadets and the Scouts stay scouts.

Again - what's the point of a dual-charter if everyone is already a member of both organizations?  Everyone already has access to the various activities through the other org.

Again, the whole idea of a dual charter is to allow our members to share some limited activities, space, and facilities with the BSA.  The main benefactor is to CAP cadets, which is why I don't see why most Venture units would be interested.

[majdomke]

I would differ to NHQ on this one since the regs seem pretty clear to me but you may also be correct. In our SQ we are also Venture Crew for similar reasons as posted already. I was able to repel a few weeks ago and we started a marksmanship team all because of our BSA affiliation. We even went to a Camporee back in May along with over 100 scouts. We were the only crew that showed up but we still took time to give ELT demos and hosted an orienteering course. It was a terrific event and the boy scouts got to see something they had never seen before... a Venture Crew wearing BDU's. Trust me, I know a few of those kids are interested in joining CAP now.

[capn_shad]

I am involved with both BSA and CAP, and we have been kicking around this idea as well.  After speaking to chain of command folks and our BSA district director, my understanding of  CAPR52-16 (6)(2) is that it is intended for an existing CAP squadron which wants to engage in Venturing type activities to dual-charter and gain access to BSA facilities and insurance.  The point is not to go recruit existing Boy Scouts or Venture Scouts into CAP.

Once you have a dual-charter squadron, by definition, anyone wanting to join the Venture crew must first join CAP, otherwise, they can go find a Venture crew with a non-military flavor.

Our district director really wants BSA to co-charter a Venture crew with us so she can have "all four elements" represented in our district -- she has an environmental crew ("earth"), a water awareness crew ("water") and a fire safety and rescue crew ("fire"), and we would be her "air" crew. 

If we do it, I could see getting a morale patch in the shape of a Venturing Crew patch, "BSA ON" / "BSA OFF". 

[Eclipse]

So your unit is also a Venture charter?

I'm been more referring to a situation where CAP goes to an existing Venture unit and works to share space, etc.  Up in my AOR that's the only reason people have considered it, mostly to try and leverage access to the meeting space, etc., of an existing group.

I never considered a CAP unit would charter as a venture unit and then just interact with the local council absent non-CAP scouts being involved.

[capn_shad]

We are considering obtaining a Venture charter to get access to local facilities (such as the San Isabel Scout Ranch and the High Mountain Adventure Base which features mountain rescue training and whitewater rafting, among other things).  If we elect to do it, in effect, CAP becomes the "sponsoring organization" and our squadron becomes the Venturing Crew (in the BSA model).

Our local Venture crews meet inside school cafeterias or at these facilities (when engaged in a special activity), so there isn't a lot of point approaching an existing Venture crew, their meeting spaces aren't much better than ours! 

That said, BSA is probably more dysfunctional than CAP, so if you don't have high-speed BSA facilities near you, there probably isn't much benefit to having two sets of paperwork to keep track of.

(edited first paragraph to clarify response).

[SarDragon]

This is a bit off topic, but I'm tired of hurting my eyes.

re·pel: 
1 a : to drive back : repulse b : to fight against : resist
2 : turn away, reject <repelled the insinuation>
3 a : to drive away : discourage <foul words and frowns must not repel a lover — Shakespeare> b : to be incapable of adhering to, mixing with, taking up, or holding c : to force away or apart or tend to do so by mutual action at a distance
4 : to cause aversion in : disgust

rap·pel:
to descend (as from a cliff) by sliding down a rope passed under one thigh, across the body, and over the opposite shoulder or through a special friction device

[nvgremlin]

Our unit is dual-chartered & has been for several years.

In my mind, it is very clear.  You are a CAP member first.  Venture Crew is an optional add-on.  In order to be a member of Venture Crew 1069, you must be a member of NV-069.

Just like CAP units and members, the 'good' or 'bad' is more about what you DO with what you got.

Pros...

• CAP cadets who choose to also enroll as a Venture Crew Scout now have increased their activity options.  BSA/Venture invites our Crew to participate in their planned events.  It is nice going to things we don't have to plan sometimes.   
  
• CAP/Venture cadet/scouts can participate in both programs without having to participate in another meeting night.
  
• Pursuing Venture Crew Ranger Award (and others) is another accomplishment for scholarships & college applications.
  
• Ranger Award and GTM have a number of similar steps to accomplish. a GTM2 matches about 70-80% of the Ranger Award.
  
• If the CAP unit is large enough, an entire Crew structure could be maintained.  This provides new/other leadership & staffing opportunites for CAP cadets.
  
• Participating in BSA events give us a LOT of publicity.  We have booths at Expos, articles in the magazine/newsletter, etc.
  
• BSA has asked CAP to use our expertise to improve BSA (judge a color guard comp for instance)
  
• Our current Cadet Commander came to us specifically because she was looking to join a Venture Crew.  So, some recruiting from BSA does occur.
  
• CAP Officers who also sign up for Venture Crew can also participate in BSA adult leadership programs.  And, I have to admit, they seem to run rings around CAP in courses teaching adults how to work with teens.
  

Cons...

• Dual-Chartering is an extra cost (and training) for members.
  
• There are some BSA rules that some CAP members do not want to follow.  Same goes for BSA die-hards understanding that CAP rules are to be followed first.
  
• It can become confusing when you are participating as a Venture Crew and not as a CAP sqdn.  That fact is VERY important to make crystal clear when you participate in something that CAP might not like yet BSA does.
  
• Following BSA protocols (activity permit & insurance) can be a bit of a hassle for those not familiar with the process.
• If not managed well, a dual-chartered squadron may become "A little too Boy-Scoutish" for some CAP traditionalists.

Now, while the Cons list is shorter, I am not implying that dual-chartering is for every unit.  You really need to have your CAP cadet program in order first before you try to bring in a whole different program.

If you ask me if it is really worth it - I'd say, "I don't know.  However, the cadets (and officers) that participate in Venture Crew activities really seem to enjoy them."

YMMV


David Jadwin
Nellis Comp Sqdn

[RiverAux]

run rings around CAP in courses teaching adults how to work with teens.

Do we even have such a thing other than TLC?

[Major Carrales]

And we are becoming a Venture Crew this week.

[DBlair]

There is an Eagle Scout ribbon now?




(Edit: This was regarding the original thread title)