Chairman JCS in Chain of Command

[flyguy06]

Ok, not boasting here, but I have a question that I ONLY see in CAP. I was in JROTC for three years. College ROTC for two years. Went to OCS, been in the military for 20 but I ONLY see this in CAP.

Why do CAP folks want to put the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the Chain of Command? The Chairman JCS is NOt a partof the Chain of Command. The chain goes fromthe President to the Sec of Def to the SecAF to Chief of Staff AF and on down. Nowhere is the Chairman of the JCS. The Chairman reports to no service Secretary except his own.

I am just curious why do CAP folks think he should be in the cahin

[IceNine]

Do you have an official reference showing this, or is it some local bonehead putting them in there?

[flyguy06]

here's and example of a Chain of Command

http://www.usaac.army.mil/acce/command_group.html

[jimmydeanno]

What chain of command are you refering to?  If you are talking about CAPs CoC, none of the people you listed fall into it...

EDIT:  What do you mean by "CAP People" BTW, you are a "CAP Person" are you not?

[flyguy06]

What chain of command are you refering to?  If you are talking about CAPs CoC, none of the people you listed fall into it...

EDIT:  What do you mean by "CAP People" BTW, you are a "CAP Person" are you not?

I am speaking of the part of the Chain that begins with the Commander in Chief.

[jimmydeanno]

Right, but if you are talking about someone listing CAPs chain of command, the Commander in Chief isn't in it either.  So are you saying someone is teaching the Air Force's CoC incorrectly or what?

I'm confused - I really am.  (not being sarcastic here).

[DNall]

Just to be perfectly technical... That would be the CAP-USAF chain that usually gets listed over the CAP chain in encampment knowledge guides. It's a little complex obviously. The AF has legal authority over AFAM and some things when not on mission. In those respects it is: ADCON - AETC, OPCON - 1AF; in the program areas the AF doesn't have authority over, CAP answers to the BoG which is a combination of folks CAP & non-CAP members appointed by CAP and the govt to oversee CAP on behalf of the govt. You can list about 4-5 chains of command that are each legitimate depending on the situation.

Now, do you really have a problem with cadets knowing who the Commander in Chief, SecDef, SecAF, CSAF, & AETC/CC are? It's good for them to understand how the AF is structured and operates, and it certainly does no harm.

Regardless of how people feel about the military aspect of the program, I think everyone universally would prefer to be a govt agency with the president and congress at the top of the chain of command.

[IceNine]

I'm asking for an official Chain of Command published somewhere in CAP that shows the Chairman in our Chain.

Not what a chain of command looks like

[jimmydeanno]

National Headquarters often receives questions about the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) "Chain of Command" from cadets and adults. There is a difference between Civil Air Patrol's organizational structure and Civil Air Patrol's Chain of Command. CAPR 20-1, Organization of Civil Air Patrol, describes the organizational structure of CAP.

Because there is some confusion about Civil Air Patrol's Chain of Command, we have developed this web page.

There are actually three Chain of Commands used in Civil Air Patrol:

Air Force
CAP
Cadet
Just as important, members need to know How the Chains Relate and other factors that influence the CAP Chain of Command, including the roles of the Board of Governors, the National Board, the National Executive Committee, and the National Headquarters.

See the Air Force Chain of Command web site for complete details and biographies. For CAP's purposes, here is the Air Force's Chain of Command, in order:

President of the United States
   - (CINC or POTUS), The Honorable George W. Bush

Secretary of Defense
   - (SecDef), The Honorable Robert Gates

Secretary of the Air Force
   - (SAF/OS), The Honorable Michael Wynne

Air Force Chief of Staff
   - (AF/CC), Gen T. Michael Moseley, USAF

Air Education & Training Command Commander
   - (AETC/CC), Gen William R. Looney III, USAF

Air University Commander
   - (AU/CC), Lt Gen Stephen Lorenz, USAF

CAP-USAF Commander
   - (CAP-USAF/CC), Col Russell Hodgkins, USAF

CAP-USAF Liaison Region Commanders
CAP-USAF State Directors

This section is out of date in regards to names

CAP Chain of Command Structure
CAP is a volunteer organization that uses the Air Force organizational model. While the Air Force has a formal Chain of Command, CAP's Chain of Command presents unique challenges because the focus is on the volunteer service concept.

By joining CAP, the members voluntarily agree to subscribe to the objectives and purposes of CAP and to comply with CAP's rules and regulations.

Here is CAP's Chain of Command, in order:

National Commander
Region Commander
Wing Commander
Group Commander (for those wings with a Group structure)
Squadron Commander
Flight Commander

Cadet Chain of Command Structure
Civil Air Patrol (CAP) youth are involved in practical leadership training as part of their progression in the cadet program. As such, the cadets model thier Chain of Command after the Air Force and CAP Chain of Commands.

However, there is no requirement that a Squadron Commander must place cadets in all of the possible positions. For example, the Squadron Commander may choose to only have a Cadet Flight Sergeant as the highest cadet position, especially if the squadron has no cadet officers.

Squadron Commanders should fill the Cadet Element Leader positions first, then the Cadet Flight Sergeants positions, and so on, as the needs of the growing squadron dictate.

These assigned cadets reports to the Deputy Commander for Cadets (in a composite squadron) or the Squadron Commander in the following order:

Cadet Commander
Cadet Flight Commander
Cadet Flight Sergeant
Cadet Element Leader

I don't have any problem with cadets learning about how the Air Force CoC operates or who is in what position.  I was trying to figure out what the situation was that he was talking about. 

However, the CAP National Commander doesn't report to the CAP-USAF commander, the two aren't linked like that - as shown on cap.gov.

So the person saying that the Chairman of the JCS isn't following the published guidelines of CAP.  Also remember that not everyone in CAP has the military experience that some of you have.

[lordmonar]

Ok, not boasting here, but I have a question that I ONLY see in CAP. I was in JROTC for three years. College ROTC for two years. Went to OCS, been in the military for 20 but I ONLY see this in CAP.

Why do CAP folks want to put the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the Chain of Command? The Chairman JCS is NOt a partof the Chain of Command. The chain goes fromthe President to the Sec of Def to the SecAF to Chief of Staff AF and on down. Nowhere is the Chairman of the JCS. The Chairman reports to no service Secretary except his own.

I am just curious why do CAP folks think he should be in the cahin

Happens on AD as well...we were playing trivia pursuit at work the other day....and 10 out of 10 airman got this wrong.

[DNall]

Sure, but the CAP/CC is not actually in charge of CAP.

There are specific and vast aspects of the program that answer thru the CAP/CC to the AF and forward to the President. Everything else answers thru CAP/CC to NB/NEC to BoG & on to Congress. It makes kind of an hour-glass shape with the CAP/CC at the intersection.

In other words, I can very legitimately list a chain of command from President down to AU/CC and over to CAP CC down to an individual. That chain may apply to management of federal funds, aircraft, legal, operations, training, etc; and not every single aspect of the program, but it is a legitimate chain of command.

If you want to argue it's misleading to tell a cadet at encampment that they answer thru that chain to the President for everything they do - ie they are legally bound by the orders of a military officer - well okay, that's a valid complaint. The issue is already overly complex. Hence, NHQ is trying to keep it simple in those answers. It's probably not a good idea to flush all that (and the dirty laundry that goes with it) out in front of cadets in such a learning environment.

Happens on AD as well...we were playing trivia pursuit at work the other day....and 10 out of 10 airman got this wrong.

You got a trivia pursuit game that asks the chain of command? Or yall are just sitting around on my freakin tax dollars? j/k 

[lordmonar]

That would be conducting an Airman Development/Mentoring Session during a lull in combat operations. 

[lordmonar]

You can also argue...that when we are doing AFAM missions we ARE in the AD chain of command.

If we go down that route........our chain of command gets really blury based on if we are doing DHS, SAR or DR missions.

[DNall]

That would be conducting an Airman Development/Mentoring Session during a lull in combat operations. 

:clap: See that folks? That's a superior SNCO right there! If I walked up to a group of soldiers sitting around & got an answer like that, I'd walk away laughing and leave them to it.

Fortunately, my folks aren't so quick on their feet. Plus, the 1SG already put out the insert boot up fourth point instruction, so I do get to "provide motivation and influence actions in order to accomplish the mission and improve the organization."

You can also argue...that when we are doing AFAM missions we ARE in the AD chain of command.

If we go down that route........our chain of command gets really blury based on if we are doing DHS, SAR or DR missions.

My understanding is OPCON would be 1AF. So, while the customer may be whomever, 1AF/CC is ultimately in charge. It gets sticky further down though. Is it IC to Wg/Reg/NOC, or IC to AF, etc. Too many moving parts for my taste. The field has a way of being complex (= dangerous) enough on it's own w/o unity of command going in.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Might this be helpful?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chairman_of_the_Joint_Chiefs

[Gunner C]

Under The Goldwater-Nichols Department of Defense Reorganization Act of 1986, neither the CJCS nor the service chiefs are in the chain of command.  The service chiefs do not own or command troops - these belong to the combatant commanders.  The actual chain of command would go from the commander in chief to the combatant commanders in each region.

In no way is the Air Force chief of staff in the chain of command.  That's been the law for 22 years.

GC

[Flying Pig]

Back in the day, when real cadets wore solid green fatigues..... :clap:    We had to know the names and ranks of all the service heads, Chief of Staof of the USAF, Commandant of the Marines etc. and also the enlisted heads of each branch.  More of a situational awareness vs them actually being in the chain of command.  But this was a Sq. deal though.  We  even had to know military ribbons, not all, but most. 

This actually paid off once I was in the Marines.  I was a young PFC going for meritorious Lance Corporal.  The Battalion Sgt major pointed to a picture of the Regimental Commander and asked me to name all of his ribbons.  Which I was able to with no problem. 

I didnt win promotion though, because I didnt have my name stamped on the back side of my tan uniform belt.  DARN NIT! Attention to detail...I was so close!  However, they were impressed I knew the guys ribbons.  Either that or they thought I was some freak PFC stalking the C.O.

[flyguy06]

WOW. ok, lets start again. I was talking about the Chain of Command that many cadets have to learn. The correct way goes like this:

Commander in Chief
Sec of Def
Sec of AF
AF Chief of Staff
Commander AETC
Commander Air University
CAP national Commander
CAP Region Commander
CAP Wing Commander

Ok, what my post was about is that I see some people when teaching the Cahin of Command want to put the Chairman JCS in it and my point is he isnt in the COC. The Chairman JCS is not a Commander. He is the senior military advisor to the Sec of Def and the President.

I wasnt talking agbout Air Force vs CAP chain of command. I was just saying I have noticed a lot of units teach the COC with the Chairman in it and that is incorrect.

[IceNine]

If they are just adding them they are ignorant to the real chain.  Send them to SLS/CLC again!

[flyguy06]

LOL