Firearms Training Guidelines

[Eclipse]

A CAP member who is also a qualfied NRA rirearms instructor may provide the training or a military RSO.

Not in their capacity as a CAP member.

Just as a member who is a First Aid instructor may provide that training, but not in their capacity as a member.

[Captain St. Clair]

Sounds like a bunch of O-7s hijacked this thread.

Good luck.  I do hope that some of you guys do fun things out there with your Cadets, otherwise the organization just turns into another inept outfit.  As for me, I called Nationals and took their guidance.

L8r.  I'm done with thread you all can have it.

Very sorry I ever posted on this forum.

[SarDragon]

Not a bunch of O-7s, but rather a group of members who have a LOT of experience in CAP. You asked for information and received it. Just because it doesn't match what you wanted to hear isn't our fault.

There is a set of rules, and we have to follow them. Just because they might be outdated, or just plain suck, doesn't give us any right to disregard them.

[Eclipse]

Good luck.  I do hope that some of you guys do fun things out there with your Cadets, otherwise the organization just turns into another inept outfit.

The typical response when someone realizes there is more to CAP then just "doing whatever you want".  There is no reason you can't have fun activities for
your members, just follow the rules and don't get defensive if you find you missed something.

As for me, I called Nationals and took their guidance.

If that is the case, then they would have told you exactly what you read here.

L8r.  I'm done with thread you all can have it.

Very sorry I ever posted on this forum.

Welcome to CAPTalk.

Why are you sorry?  Seriously.  I don't get this attitude when people disagree.

If you're correct, then whatever we say here isn't going to matter.  If you aren't, then we've provided important information
that you need to protect yourself and the organization.  The regs regarding firearms use are nothing to play games with.

This is a discussion forum.  Or did you simply want to "announce" what you are doing?  You asked questions and
we answered them directly and factually.  Taking your bytes and going home won't change that.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Eclipse-

Well said. While we sometimes disagree with interpretation and argue back and forth, yours - and SAR - is the attitude to take. You cannot go to a public forum that people use for advice, announce what you intend to do and expect people with a lot of experience to just shut up.



I guess that is how some people expect us to be.

Flyer

[lordmonar]

A CAP member who is also a qualfied NRA rirearms instructor may provide the training or a military RSO.

Not in their capacity as a CAP member.

Just as a member who is a First Aid instructor may provide that training, but not in their capacity as a member.

I wonder where you get that disctinction....and how you back that up with the regulations.

[Eclipse]

From the regs, it's very clear.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Sounds like a bunch of O-7s hijacked this thread.

Good luck.  I do hope that some of you guys do fun things out there with your Cadets, otherwise the organization just turns into another inept outfit.  As for me, I called Nationals and took their guidance.

L8r.  I'm done with thread you all can have it.

Very sorry I ever posted on this forum.

Great 'tude! I used to be like that, as a 15 year old C/CMSgt too.

That said, what did NHQ tell you?

[Ground Pounder]

Interesting post.  I can't imagine Capt. St. Clair will respond.  He took a pretty good beating just by asking a benign question.  Lets see what happens....

[lordmonar]

A CAP member who is also a qualfied NRA rirearms instructor may provide the training or a military RSO.

Not in their capacity as a CAP member.

Just as a member who is a First Aid instructor may provide that training, but not in their capacity as a member.

Cite please......I have read the regs.....and still don't see anything explicit that says it cannot be done in their capacity as a member.

[Eclipse]

Cite please......I have read the regs.....and still don't see anything explicit that says it cannot be done in their capacity as a member.

Cite where is says, anywhere, that CAP, as an organization is allowed to provide these types of training without the outside organization.

The regs in this regard are very clear as to who, and how these activities are authorized.  In all cases, it is made very clear that
CAP doesn't provide or sanction it, only facilitate the activity with some other organization.

The fact that a member happens to have two hats at home doesn't change that.  Further, I'd hazard that in most cases, the
sanctioning organization, be it military, law enforcement, or NRA, would have their own requirements in that regard as well.

The bottom line is that CAP has made it very clear they have no interest in the liability that these activities can bring on, and
only allow them when another organization assumes that mantle. 

And further to this, from a practical perspective, why would anyone bother when it obviously muddied the role.

"Capt Shooter, why aren't you wearing your uniform?"

"Because I am here today in my role as an NRA instructor, and it's important everyone understand that.  CAP
is not sanctioning or providing any of the instruction you will receive here today."

Also, while it might be expedient for a member to facilitate these activities, I'd be willing to bet if you asked them
that NHQ would prefer that member disengage from being the instructors altogether and connect the member with someone
else, thereby insuring they are left out of any liability issues that may ensue. 

[bflynn]

A CAP member who is also a qualfied NRA rirearms instructor may provide the training or a military RSO.

Not in their capacity as a CAP member.

Just as a member who is a First Aid instructor may provide that training, but not in their capacity as a member.

Cite please......I have read the regs.....and still don't see anything explicit that says it cannot be done in their capacity as a member.

It's a technical distinction.  CAP does not certify instructors for this, therefore there is no means for anyone to give instruction as a CAP member.  However, a member who has been certified by another authority to teach this can give instruction because their recognized authority to teach it comes from the other organization.

The whole thing about wearing a uniform is an opinion.  There is nothing in regs that states you must not wear a uniform when teaching in your capacity from another organization.  In fact, a counter opinion can be given that because CAP regulations specifically recognize other authorities, CAP is authorizing instruction from them.

In the end - go do fun things and enjoy it. 

I'm going flying...

[lordmonar]

Cite please......I have read the regs.....and still don't see anything explicit that says it cannot be done in their capacity as a member.

Cite where is says, anywhere, that CAP, as an organization is allowed to provide these types of training without the outside organization.

Flight training is a good example.   You have to be an FAA CFI......but CAP certainly does flight training as CAP members.

The regs in this regard are very clear as to who, and how these activities are authorized.  In all cases, it is made very clear that
CAP doesn't provide or sanction it, only facilitate the activity with some other organization.

"very clear"??   If it was very clear we would not be having this discussion.

The fact that a member happens to have two hats at home doesn't change that.  Further, I'd hazard that in most cases, the
sanctioning organization, be it military, law enforcement, or NRA, would have their own requirements in that regard as well.

Actually I would hazard not.  The ARC does not care what "uniform" their instructors are wearing.....the AHA the same.

The bottom line is that CAP has made it very clear they have no interest in the liability that these activities can bring on, and
only allow them when another organization assumes that mantle.

Again.....I need to see that in writing.......it is a CAP activity approved by the wing commander.....CAP does not just give up liability like that.  You take your cadets to a professional gun range and something happens......you bet CAP is liable! 

And further to this, from a practical perspective, why would anyone bother when it obviously muddied the role.

"Capt Shooter, why aren't you wearing your uniform?"

"Because I am here today in my role as an NRA instructor, and it's important everyone understand that.  CAP
is not sanctioning or providing any of the instruction you will receive here today."

Again.....I need to specfically see that in writing to beleive it.

Also, while it might be expedient for a member to facilitate these activities, I'd be willing to bet if you asked them
that NHQ would prefer that member disengage from being the instructors altogether and connect the member with someone
else, thereby insuring they are left out of any liability issues that may ensue.

Actually you don't have to ask NHQ.....just wing......and once again.....it is still a wing approved activity and therefore CAP has liability anyways.

[lordmonar]

A CAP member who is also a qualfied NRA rirearms instructor may provide the training or a military RSO.

Not in their capacity as a CAP member.

Just as a member who is a First Aid instructor may provide that training, but not in their capacity as a member.

Cite please......I have read the regs.....and still don't see anything explicit that says it cannot be done in their capacity as a member.

It's a technical distinction.  CAP does not certify instructors for this, therefore there is no means for anyone to give instruction as a CAP member.  However, a member who has been certified by another authority to teach this can give instruction because their recognized authority to teach it comes from the other organization.

The whole thing about wearing a uniform is an opinion.  There is nothing in regs that states you must not wear a uniform when teaching in your capacity from another organization.  In fact, a counter opinion can be given that because CAP regulations specifically recognize other authorities, CAP is authorizing instruction from them.

In the end - go do fun things and enjoy it. 

I'm going flying...

CAP does not certify CFIs but we do Flight Instruction all the time.   

If CAP personnel were FORBIDDEN to do this sort of instruction then that needs to be clearly spelled out in the regulation.  It would say something like "CAP personnel are forbidden to conduct fire arms training.  If a CAP member is also an authorised instructor discribed in para XXX.X he may conduct the training as a member of the instructing organisation and not a CAP member."

But since it does not say anything like that.....there is no restrictions as far as I know to a CAP member, in uniform, performing this sort of instruction or any other sort of approved HAA.

[jimmydeanno]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this argument.  It sounds like what we are talking about is a person acting as an expert in a field that holds a certain credential from an outside credentialing agency (AHA, ARC, NRA, etc) versus someone acting as an employee of that agency.

Example:  My wife is a "certified AHA CPR Instructor" and regularly teaches CPR classes in her military uniform.  The instruction begins with her telling everyone that the course is certified by the AHA and that is the method they will be using.  AHA has credentialed her to teach, but she isn't an employee, and doesn't wear AHA gear.  I liken this to someone who is a history expert not having to wear their "UMUC Alumni" polo because that is who certified that they know what they're talking about by issuing a degree.  CISSP instructors don't have to wear CISCO gear when teaching when they work for a university or other employer, etc.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Jimmy-

Eclipse says that "any person credentialed by AHA or ARC cannot teach while wearing the CAP uniform. This is needed so that there is clear separation between CAP, AHA, and ARC."

Therefore according to his entire postings and using the example you provided, your wife cannot teach AHA while wearing the military uniform.

Another example: many AHA instructors end up being nurses at hospitals and other health care facilities. According to Eclipse, these nurses cannot wear their health facility uniforms while teaching AHA or ARC.

Again, AHA and ARC only care their procedures are followed. Name the agency, AHA or ARC. Give a card. Every student get a book. Test with a minimum of 80%. Do compressions a certain way. A certain amount of material be covered. And they will send, every now and then, someone to make sure this is happening. Nothing about uniforms, only that if you do not wear a uniform, dress professionally.

Flyer

[Eclipse]

Therefore according to his entire postings and using the example you provided, your wife cannot teach AHA while wearing the military uniform.

Not connected - what may or may not be done in a military or other uniform has nothing to do with CAP regs, nor what other agencies or orgs dictate isn't CAP's concern.

You're confusing what the AHA rules might be with what CAP's rules are.

Though with that said, I would hazard these other organizations would feel the same way.

Your assertions don't make logical sense.   If CAP was interested in the implied and actual liability of providing these types of classes,
they simply would provide them.  Instead we have a very clear, very bright, very specific requirement that first aid, firearms, and other instruction
be provided by anyone but CAP personnel.

[lordmonar]

I liken this to someone who is a history expert not having to wear their "UMUC Alumni" polo because that is who certified that they know what they're talking about by issuing a degree.

My BA is in history from UMUC.   

[lordmonar]

Therefore according to his entire postings and using the example you provided, your wife cannot teach AHA while wearing the military uniform.

Not connected - what may or may not be done in a military or other uniform has nothing to do with CAP regs, nor what other agencies or orgs dictate isn't CAP's concern.

You are right........but where is it written?

You're confusing what the AHA rules might be with what CAP's rules are.

Yes that is correct.....so what are CAP's rule?  Please cite Chapter and Verse.

Though with that said, I would hazard these other organizations would feel the same way.

Being a former ARC and AHA CPR instructor, a former ARC INSTRUCTOR TRAINER, well as a former ARC life guarding and swimming instructor trainer......I can tell you that the ARC does not care.  They care you have an instructor agreement on file with the local office, that you fill out your paperwork correctly, you follow the instructional guidelines and standards and each student gets (and pays for) their own book.

Your assertions don't make logical sense.   If CAP was interested in the implied and actual liability of providing these types of classes,
they simply would provide them.  Instead we have a very clear, very bright, very specific requirement that first aid, firearms, and other instruction
be provided by anyone but CAP personnel.

Or....they could be saying.....these are not our core competancies and why reinvent the wheel.
I notice you don't take up the flight training argument.  Why can we teach cadets to fly but not to shoot guns or do first aid?   If it is liablilty.....I would think that CAP would have similar regulations against that as well.   You have asserted that it is agains the regs......but I still see no regulations so stateing.

[Eclipse]

I notice you don't take up the flight training argument.  Why can we teach cadets to fly but not to shoot guns or do first aid?   If it is liablilty.....I would think that CAP would have similar regulations against that as well.   You have asserted that it is agains the regs......but I still see no regulations so stateing.

I didn't take up the flight training argument because it is also irrelevant to the discussion.

One is allowed, one isn't.  Why doesn't matter, and that's an attitude more members should adopt.

The rules for firearms & first aid training are specific, and any other interpretation smacks of "you can't make me". 

Can you name a single good reason to wear the CAP uniform when you are clearly acting as an agent of another organization?  Convenience is not an acceptable answer since
everyone has civvies.