I brought in a new cadet starting this month. Summer encampment coming up this June. Is it too soon? Should he wait until Winter when he has been in for a few more months and has a better feel for everything? Would encampment blow him away with too much expected of a newbie? Or would it help jump start it all? He is 17.
At 17, this cadet is hardly a "delicate flower" and should definitely go to encampment as soon as possible.
Send him! I sent some 12-14 year old cadets with less than three months of membership to encampment last year. They did not break and have done better than most of the other cadets that did not go.
Thanks.
AND --
Get him in the air. Frequently. Once 18, orientation flights cease. Stupid rule, but there it is.
The functional expectation at encampment is Curry-level activity. As long as he is capable at that level, he'll be fine.
Encampment is not BMT, nor even BCT (as that's Curry). It's more akin to a tech school.
Make sure he, and your other cadets going, are well-prepared with the things on the equipment list (and nothing more),
and have practiced things like basic drill AE knowledge, and cadet knowledge.
The in-process / final evaluation points can be found here: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Cadet_Assessment_97E8EA097AD07.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Cadet_Assessment_97E8EA097AD07.pdf)
And the entirely of the curriculum, including al classes and the student guide here: http://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/activities/encampment/ (http://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/activities/encampment/)
You might consider some discussion around the Honor Agreement and being evaluated by people you don't know, but beyond that,
as mentioned, there are 12 year olds with 3 months in who participate every year with no issues.
First-year encampment participation is considered a mitigating factor in cadet retention.
Quote from: LTC Don on March 28, 2016, 02:46:51 PM
AND --
Get him in the air. Frequently. Once 18, orientation flights cease. Stupid rule, but there it is.
Since he is just starting at 17, he might stay a Cadet until 21 (permissible as long as he stays in school). As long as he progresses quickly enough, he could still possibly get some flight training as a Cadet before tuning 21 and aging out of Cadets.
Quote from: etodd on March 28, 2016, 03:30:18 PM
Quote from: LTC Don on March 28, 2016, 02:46:51 PM
AND --
Get him in the air. Frequently. Once 18, orientation flights cease. Stupid rule, but there it is.
Since he is just starting at 17, he might stay a Cadet until 21 (permissible as long as he stays in school). As long as he progresses quickly enough, he could still possibly get some flight training as a Cadet before tuning 21 and aging out of Cadets.
You might want to do some research and edit this post before the wolves come out....
Quote from: etodd on March 28, 2016, 03:30:18 PM
Since he is just starting at 17, he might stay a Cadet until 21 (permissible as long as he stays in school).
There is no requirement a cadet "stay in school" to remain a cadet until they are 21, beyond the subjective
of not failing academically where / if they are enrolled.
An 18 year old cadet who graduates high school and does not go to college may remain a cadet until 21.
(http://www.animatedimages.org/data/media/231/animated-wolf-image-0003.gif)
Quote from: Eclipse on March 28, 2016, 02:51:15 PM
The functional expectation at encampment is Curry-level activity. As long as he is capable at that level, he'll be fine.
Outside of the drill...
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 28, 2016, 03:44:29 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 28, 2016, 02:51:15 PM
The functional expectation at encampment is Curry-level activity. As long as he is capable at that level, he'll be fine.
Outside of the drill...
Fair enough - though now that we're back to "can't fail if you are there 80% of the time", not really a serious concern.
Most of the drill is "follow-me" type stuff that they learn / work on on the fly (for students, cadre is a different story).
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 28, 2016, 03:44:29 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 28, 2016, 02:51:15 PM
The functional expectation at encampment is Curry-level activity. As long as he is capable at that level, he'll be fine.
Outside of the drill...
Cite please that students are required to know more than whats on the Curry Drill Exam to go to Encampment.
Last Year, we had a C/1Sgt reaming a Flight due to their lack of advanced drill. 90% of them were Amn or A1C's. He got a stern talking to about butting in where he shouldn't have, and exactly what Amn were expected to know.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 28, 2016, 03:47:23 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 28, 2016, 03:44:29 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 28, 2016, 02:51:15 PM
The functional expectation at encampment is Curry-level activity. As long as he is capable at that level, he'll be fine.
Outside of the drill...
Fair enough - though now that we're back to "can't fail if you are there 80% of the time", not really a serious concern.
Most of the drill is "follow-me" type stuff that they learn / work on on the fly (for students, cadre is a different story).
I'm just saying, the requirement is Curry, but anyone who sends any cadets to encampment should at least cover the basics of actual movement drill.
I should also say that, yes, Encampment is a whole lot easier if they do know more drill, but they aren't required to.
I take it as an another opportunity for the Flight Staff to work with cadets on Leadership and instruction.
Quote from: RogueLeader on March 28, 2016, 03:48:25 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 28, 2016, 03:44:29 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 28, 2016, 02:51:15 PM
The functional expectation at encampment is Curry-level activity. As long as he is capable at that level, he'll be fine.
Outside of the drill...
Cite please that students are required to know more than whats on the Curry Drill Exam to go to Encampment.
Last Year, we had a C/1Sgt reaming a Flight due to their lack of advanced drill. 90% of them were Amn or A1C's. He got a stern talking to about butting in where he shouldn't have, and exactly what Amn were expected to know.
I don't have a cite. It's a point of expectation vs reality.
Cadets arrive, typically get in formation, and get marched to their destination. In theory, you can have a C/Amn who has no idea how to do that. In practice, it's not an issue (most of the time). But the expectation that an encampment is the place where a cadet who just learned left and right face is going to be "on the curve" is simply not correct. I'd actually love to shift the drill tests, with the achievement 1 drill test being a pre-curry requirement, and for the curry, achievement 2 drill test being the norm.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 28, 2016, 02:51:15 PM
First-year encampment participation is considered a mitigating factor in cadet retention.
I can read that both ways. Not sure what you mean. I guess Encampment could scare off some newbies and others may love it and want more.
Quote from: etodd on March 28, 2016, 04:09:52 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 28, 2016, 02:51:15 PM
First-year encampment participation is considered a mitigating factor in cadet retention.
I can read that both ways. Not sure what you mean. I guess Encampment could scare off some newbies and others may love it and want more.
it's been indicated by NHQ repeatedly over the years that getting a cadet to encampment in their first year will generally result in
longer retention. My personal experience bears that out.
Commanders should be discussing encampments and similar activities as "part and parcel" of the cadet program, with an expectation that
every cadet will get to "something" in a given year. Far too many never even mention them, or talk about them as if they were somehow "separate"
from the "real" program. In some cases this is to hide their own failed program from the rest of the wing - sending cadets to larger activities
tends to expose training flaws and misconceptions at the home units, which is one of the intents of encampments to begin with.
There's nothing to be scared of with properly executed encampments, beyond the growth experience of "pooping away from home", and most parents are
mightily impressed, grateful, and little sad when they see what a few days away from home can do for an adolescent, not to mention that the
cadets come back to unit meetings reinvigorated which raises the unit spirit and makes those that didn't go think about "next time".
Cheese and rice...
I went to my first encampment at 13, having been in 6 months. I went every year until I graduated and went in the Army. I learned more at encampment than I did in Basic, it felt like. I already knew the scut-work side (making bunks, spacing hangers and uniforms, etc.) and the D&C was similar enough that I had no real issues other than my feet, which got me discharged 33 days after entering. I really felt that encampment was harder, in some cases, than Basic. Except for the guns and tear gas.
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 28, 2016, 04:33:46 PMI really felt that encampment was harder, in some cases, than Basic. Except for the guns and tear gas.
Consider your age, if nothing else.
Some kids' first experience away from home is BMT, a hard lesson to learn at the same time some dude is yelling at you about your shoelaces.
You got past being away from mom and dad, plus having to be not only self-reliant, but also responsible to and for others, at an age many kids today
aren't even allowed to walk to school by themselves.
Seriously, it's hard to over-emphasize the value of these experiences.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 28, 2016, 04:38:52 PM
at an age many some kids today aren't even allowed to walk to school by themselves.
I'm willing to bet it's a very small minority. Things aren't all that bad, kids still grow up, and still become adults.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 28, 2016, 04:40:52 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 28, 2016, 04:38:52 PM
at an age many some kids today aren't even allowed to walk to school by themselves.
I'm willing to bet it's a very small minority. Things aren't all that bad, kids still grow up, and still become adults.
Based purely on the number of cars in line every day at my sons' middle school, it's probably more then you'd think.
I'm not saying it's because of crime or safety concern, but more out of convenience and helicoptering.
I am frequently (still) surprised at how many in their peer groups haven't been away overnight, or do other activities
without / away from mom & dad. Many can't swim, don't ride a bike, or do other things most of "us" considered normal,
because a lot of parents just don't want to "push". It's kinda weird, actually.
With that said, I'm usually in that !@#$%! line, as much because they have eleventy-twelveteen other things to do
after school and every moment counts, but they have spent plenty of time away from home overnight with the BSA, school,
family, etc. Shockingly, at least to date, not any of it based on a court order!
Quote from: Eclipse on March 28, 2016, 04:46:50 PM
Shockingly, at least to date, not of it based on a court order!
I thought we weren't going to bring up my past!
Quote from: etodd on March 28, 2016, 03:30:18 PM
Quote from: LTC Don on March 28, 2016, 02:46:51 PM
AND --
Get him in the air. Frequently. Once 18, orientation flights cease. Stupid rule, but there it is.
Since he is just starting at 17, he might stay a Cadet until 21 (permissible as long as he stays in school). As long as he progresses quickly enough, he could still possibly get some flight training as a Cadet before tuning 21 and aging out of Cadets.
Nope, cadet orientation flights are not available to cadets over the age of 18 with the only exception being milair o-flights. The only option for cadets to fly after 18, outside of formal flight training, is to join aircrew as a Mission Scanner/Airborne Photographer (Observer might also be an option, can't remember).
Quote8-8. Cadet Orientation Flights.
The Cadet Orientation Flight Program's primary goal is to introduce youth to general aviation through hands-on orientation flights in single engine aircraft and gliders.
a. Eligibility.
Cadets may fly as much as possible, but normally only five powered flights and five glider flights will be reimbursed. More than one cadet may fly per sortie, depending upon the aircraft's capability. Cadets are authorized an unlimited number of backseat flights; they do not lose any of their syllabus flights by observing another cadet's flight from the backseat. The program is limited to current CAP cadets under 18 years of age. However, cadets aged 18 and older may participate in military orientation flights.
Sorry for the thread diversion.
Quote from: LTC Don on March 28, 2016, 07:33:20 PMThe only option for cadets to fly after 18, outside of formal flight training, is to join aircrew as a Mission Scanner/Airborne Photographer (Observer might also be an option, can't remember).
Scanner and observer are both open to cadets, as is Mission Pilot (if they is one).
Quote from: Eclipse on March 28, 2016, 07:47:57 PM
Quote from: LTC Don on March 28, 2016, 07:33:20 PMThe only option for cadets to fly after 18, outside of formal flight training, is to join aircrew as a Mission Scanner/Airborne Photographer (Observer might also be an option, can't remember).
Scanner and observer are both open to cadets, as is Mission Pilot (if they is one).
Also GIIEP operator.
Quote from: etodd on March 28, 2016, 03:30:18 PM
Quote from: LTC Don on March 28, 2016, 02:46:51 PM
AND --
Get him in the air. Frequently. Once 18, orientation flights cease. Stupid rule, but there it is.
Since he is just starting at 17, he might stay a Cadet until 21 (permissible as long as he stays in school). As long as he progresses quickly enough, he could still possibly get some flight training as a Cadet before tuning 21 and aging out of Cadets.
Orientation flights and flight training are not the same.
Quote from: SarDragon on March 28, 2016, 07:50:13 PM
Quote from: etodd on March 28, 2016, 03:30:18 PM
Quote from: LTC Don on March 28, 2016, 02:46:51 PM
AND --
Get him in the air. Frequently. Once 18, orientation flights cease. Stupid rule, but there it is.
Since he is just starting at 17, he might stay a Cadet until 21 (permissible as long as he stays in school). As long as he progresses quickly enough, he could still possibly get some flight training as a Cadet before tuning 21 and aging out of Cadets.
Orientation flights and flight training are not the same.
Correct, but the distinction between the two is, O-Flights are provided to cadets free of charge, and flight training is neither provided by CAP, nor necessarily free. I hate to see cadets cheated out of their o-flights unnecessarily.
Absolutely. My response was for etodd, not you.
Yep. Between 18 and 21 a Cadet can get primary flight training in the CAP plane at CAP member rates for the plane and low cost instruction. Hence his probability of staying a Cadet until he is 21. Maybe he can get his private by then. Then become a Senior Member and start paying for the plane to get his IFR, etc.
Quote from: etodd on March 28, 2016, 09:21:09 PM
Yep. Between 18 and 21 a Cadet can get primary flight training in the CAP plane at CAP member rates for the plane and low cost instruction. Hence his probability of staying a Cadet until he is 21. Maybe he can get his private by then. Then become a Senior Member and start paying for the plane to get his IFR, etc.
Between 16 and 21.
The 18 age is just participation in ES.
An 16 year old cadet with a solo endorsement and CAPF 5 can "rent out" the CAP plane to do his solo training.
At 16 a cadet can also get Primary Flight Training by a CAP instructor in a CAP aircraft.
Yep. I liked this page from the Knowledgebase. It not only talks of it, but encourages it. "Just Do It."
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/636/~/providing-flight-training-for-cap-cadets (http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/636/~/providing-flight-training-for-cap-cadets)
Finding willing instructors is the issue. For most CFIs, a cadet-age student is their bread and butter, asking them to
provide that for free, especially considering the shrinkage of GA in general, is a pretty big ask, especially outside
a flight academy or similar.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 28, 2016, 04:40:52 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 28, 2016, 04:38:52 PM
at an age many some kids today aren't even allowed to walk to school by themselves.
I'm willing to bet it's a very small minority. Things aren't all that bad, kids still grow up, and still become adults.
I don't know.. I had a 17 year old who could not give me major street names when I asked for directions to his house. He told me to "Turn on the street with a lot of trees." I was coming from a major state road where all of the shopping is on this side of town, it's a road you have to go down to get to his house. I'm not good with directions myself and get very stressed out when driving somewhere new, this even shocked me.