National Board Uniform Changes 2013

[kd8gua]

Keeping that in mind, I won't go into specifics on the SMWOG uniforms, but I was pleased to see that there was actual care and thought put behind what members of CAP wear before they are promoted to 2d Lt or the NCO grades should they choose it. The current 39-1 just sort of throws SMWOG into a sort of limbo with no clear direction. This takes care of that!

In general, aside from the current discussion over boots and patches, the 39-1, whenever it gets released, is miles ahead of the last one! The manual actually answers the Who, What, Where, When, Why, and How of CAP uniforms.

[Private Investigator]

If, for arguments sake, copies of a draft of 39-1 were distributed to members for their confidential comments and input,
then perhaps we should all consider respecting that confidence and not discuss things which were not intended for public discussion?

Just sayin'

Good point. But if I was National Staff, CAP Talk would be a good place to get feedback from a variety of sources with varying degrees of background in CAP. And as we know CT is the source for all things "uniform" in CAP   

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'm seeing a fair number of people on this thread talking about what's in the draft of the new 39-1. In what locked bunker in Area 51 is this draft being kept...? I'm not seeing it anywhere drafts would normally be posted for comments.

NHQ constantly reaches out to the field for comment/review. Some of those folks like to share not only their selection, but apparently also the content.

[a2capt]

Interesting that the Big V. isn't happy with the current polo shirt quality. That's one of the biggest reasons I refuse to buy into it. The cheap stuff at the big box store is better.

Perhaps they might look into buying a name branded athletic/wicking variety. Those keep their color, shape and over all look indefinitely, vs. the typical variety. Very similar to the ones that were sold in the ends of the Bookstore to CAPMart era.

[RiverAux]

If we are to say that because the Army used/designed Woodland BDUs that we can't use that as a Corporate uniform, then we shouldn't be allowed to use BBDUs since the Coast Guard uses them.

Actually, the Coast Guard does not use blue bdus.  Yes, they are blue, but there are differences -- for example, the Coast Guard symbols embedded in the fabric in various places. 

[NIN]

Good point. But if I was National Staff, CAP Talk would be a good place to get feedback from a variety of sources with varying degrees of background in CAP. And as we know CT is the source for all things "uniform" in CAP   

I think you'll see a draft pretty quick. Don't forget, the process isn't usually "shove the first draft out the door for comments from everybody," but rather that they circulate a couple drafts around the committee for refinements, then past the stakeholders for some buy in/confirmation that the guidance/policy is keeping with the commander's intent, etc.   THEN it gets put in front of the membership.

So I don't think there is any intent to NOT include the membership, but I think that rather its entirely appropriate that the National Commander review what would potentially go out over his signature first, before putting it out for comment to the general membership.

Remember, as much as we'd like, CAP is not a democracy.

[a2capt]

If, for arguments sake, copies of a draft of 39-1 were distributed to members for their confidential comments and input, then perhaps we should all consider respecting that confidence and not discuss things which were not intended for public discussion?

Considering things were posted here already, without any such disclaimers, and a lot of questions were thrown back and forth in that room, and a lot of information was disseminated.

I think the genie is out of the bottle, and the bottle has been turned in for redemption, smashed and smelted into 16 other new bottles by now. It's too late.

[Eclipse]

Well, NHQ clearly made a choice to allow a number of things to get out publicly, that's was their choice.

If and when they want to release the whole thing, that's on them too.

[Майор Хаткевич]

If, for arguments sake, copies of a draft of 39-1 were distributed to members for their confidential comments and input, then perhaps we should all consider respecting that confidence and not discuss things which were not intended for public discussion?

Considering things were posted here already, without any such disclaimers, and a lot of questions were thrown back and forth in that room, and a lot of information was disseminated.

I think the genie is out of the bottle, and the bottle has been turned in for redemption, smashed and smelted into 16 other new bottles by now. It's too late.

What was shared at the conference isn't quite the drift to sharing the draft 39-1.

[NIN]

They will, eventually, and we'll all find out if our sacred cows are slain or not.

Its not inappropriate that the command council is briefed on the progress of the uniform manual rewrite and the potential upcoming changes.  Not at all.  But that doesn't mean that concurrent to this briefing that the entire briefing package is placed in front of the membership for their approval.

Some people have some pretty heavy duty opinions based on nothing more than a cell phone snappie of a slide in a powerpoint presentation.   Abraham Zapruder would be *proud*

[SierraOneThree]

ES is just ONE of the THREE Congressionally chartered missions, and really doesn't have much bearing on the discussion of boots, so why bring it up?  You think BDUs were designed to have full-color patches & ultramarine nametapes put on 'em? LOL. 

I brought it up because it's when we actually claim the title "Auxiliary to the US Air Force". As well, ES is the primary portion of the program one would need good boots anyway, of which the selection of sage is about equivalent to the price of and selection of black.

For comparison-

Belleville (10/10)
-32 models of sage green boot ranging from $96 to $234
-12 models of black boot ranging from $96 to $222, with one model of TR boot at $75

Rocky (9/10)
-4 models of sage green boot ranging from $135 to $253
-9 pairs of black boot ranging from $99 to $195

Danner (10/10)
-8 models of sage green boot ranging from $140 to $330
-2 models of black boot ranging from $190 to $210

Corcoran (a favorite of many NCOs, I find, and generally poor-to-mediocre quality boots) (4.5/10)
-5 models of sage green boot ranging from $156 to $310
-20 models of black boot ranging from $95 to $292

Wellco (3.5/10)
-8 models of sage green boot ranging from $140 to $219
-7 models of black boot ranging from $90 to $219

Bates (4/10)
-5 models of sage green boot ranging from $125 to $250
-6 models of black boot ranging from $82 to $255

Oakley (2.5/10)
-2 models of black boot at $130

I'm missing a couple brands, but that's about where it's at. Edit: Decided to throw in my personal opinion of each brand name. Not much, but I've found it's a relatively accurate reference to quality over the last few years.

[Hawk200]

If we are to say that because the Army used/designed Woodland BDUs that we can't use that as a Corporate uniform, then we shouldn't be allowed to use BBDUs since the Coast Guard uses them.

Completely inaccurate. The Army designed, produced, and fielded the Woodland Camouflage Battle Dress Utility (which is the original terminology,) and the Desert Camouflage Utility. It's their design. The basic pattern moved into the public domain, so it was available in other colors, and that's the reason why the Army Combat Uniform is available under other names that aren't in ACUPAT. The Army could create a stink about it, but it doesn't present any value for them to do so, and no one tries wearing those other colors with their Army uniforms. If they did, there would definitely be an issue.

The Blue BDU was one of those knock offs that the Army doesn't have any issue with, so anyone can use it.

Additionally, the Coast Guard doesn't wear BBDU's. Their uniform is a design rather specific, and probably carries the same kind of labels that the Air Force requires on their dress uniforms.

Overall, we can't just decide "Oh, no one is using it, so we can do whatever we want with it." We've already had issues with that, more are just going to create more problems.

We can make our own input on things, make requests, but we still have to accept the final word when it's given.

[Eclipse]

ES is just ONE of the THREE Congressionally chartered missions, and really doesn't have much bearing on the discussion of boots, so why bring it up?  You think BDUs were designed to have full-color patches & ultramarine nametapes put on 'em? LOL. 

I brought it up because it's when we actually claim the title "Auxiliary to the US Air Force". As well, ES is the primary portion of the program one would need good boots anyway, of which the selection of sage is about equivalent to the price of and selection of black.

For comparison-

Belleville (10/10)
-32 models of sage green boot ranging from $96 to $234
-12 models of black boot ranging from $96 to $222, with one model of TR boot at $75

Rocky (9/10)
-4 models of sage green boot ranging from $135 to $253
-9 pairs of black boot ranging from $99 to $195

Danner (10/10)
-8 models of sage green boot ranging from $140 to $330
-2 models of black boot ranging from $190 to $210

Corcoran (a favorite of many NCOs, I find, and generally poor-to-mediocre quality boots) (4.5/10)
-5 models of sage green boot ranging from $156 to $310
-20 models of black boot ranging from $95 to $292

Wellco (3.5/10)
-8 models of sage green boot ranging from $140 to $219
-7 models of black boot ranging from $90 to $219

Bates (4/10)
-5 models of sage green boot ranging from $125 to $250
-6 models of black boot ranging from $82 to $255

Oakley (2.5/10)
-2 models of black boot at $130

I'm missing a couple brands, but that's about where it's at. Edit: Decided to throw in my personal opinion of each brand name. Not much, but I've found it's a relatively accurate reference to quality over the last few years.

Walmart - one pair of black boots ~$30, which to the average member is all they care about and will ever need.

[NIN]

Walmart - one pair of black boots ~$30, which to the average member is all they care about and will ever need.

At the end of the day, black boots that lace up and are polishable are pretty much what I've seen, yep.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Interceptor-Men-s-Work-Boot-Black/26135730
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Men-s-Soft-Toe-Kenway-Work-Boot/21672646
http://www.walmart.com/ip/KENTIN/21998397

For 75%+ of our cadets, those boots work just fine.

By the national retention rate, 50% or so of our cadets leave after the first year, anyway, so spending $90-120 on special sage green boots that only half of them are even going to wear, what, 2-3 dozen times is silly.

[SierraOneThree]

Alright then, you'll still have a significant phase-in period for the ABUs, during which you'll continue to have BDUs be authorized. I believe it was mentioned 3 years for seniors, 5 for cadets. During that time, you can continue to wear your BDUs with black boots, while the surplus and online markets open up to a similar plethora of inexpensive sage boots. At the end of 5 years, you'll have a similar market for sage boots to the one for black boots now.

I mean, JROTC does it, and their cadets are in the same boat ours are in.



At the end of the day this remains a point-counterpoint. I honestly would be absolutely shocked if NHQ and CAP-USAF did not authorize green boots at some point with whatever ABU combination eventually makes the cut.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Why is the focus on the secondhand market? Most members get their stuff new, not from GIJoes Military Surplus.

[Eclipse]

I mean, JROTC does it, and their cadets are in the same boat ours are in.

No, they are not.

[SierraOneThree]

How so? The ones I know here are, at least.

[Eclipse]

How so? The ones I know here are, at least.

Who pays for JROTC uniforms?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Are JROTC cadets issued their uniforms the same as university ROTC cadets? When I took my two years of college ROTC it was Uncle Sam who paid for the uniforms. I had to pay for the boots. Even the shoes were issued...

Flyer