National Board Uniform Changes 2013

[ironputts]

I know we are all commenting on the details of the pending ABU change. I would just like to say that this will be great for CAP! Our relationship and identity with the US Air Force is imperative going forward. Our uniform shell should always remain the same but in the end will be distinctive from the military because we are a civilian organization. The logistics of this transition will take time and the less items initially we have to purchase will be better for all. Availability of supply should always be a consideration for our organization. After this transition we will then begin writing about the next uniform when the Air Force switches from the ABU.

[NIN]

(this is longer than I intended)

The transition period is purposed to allow for time for people to buy their new uniforms. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've heard cost-efficiency wasn't much of a concern during the BDU switch.

Cost to the membership is always a consideration in uniform changes.  I think you'll find the opinions on whether or not a change is costly or inexpensive varies wildly based on location, the economy, unit composition, etc. What I find to be "reasonable" you might find to be "not reasonable" based on, say, whether your cadets have easy access to uniforms, a large base of unit-owned items, a really awesome surplus store, etc.

Longer phase-in periods give members the opportunity to maximize the life of the items they've already purchased, allows the introduction of a new item in sufficient time for people to plan for its acquisition to replace a phased out item, and allow Vanguard to "sell-down" stocks of manufactured insignia that may be rendered obsolete.  Our agreement with Vanguard, as I understand it, is that if we eliminate an item, we have to pay Vanguard for the unsold stock of remaining insignia.  (Seems kind of a dis-incentive to streamline/make changes, huh?)    I mean, lets face it: most of us wear our uniforms for about 3 hrs a week.  You might average 200 hrs of uniform wear a year if you go to encampment. Our uniforms are not wearing out at the same rate as our active-duty counterparts, so our phase out periods tend to be a little longer, too.

I don't know about the CAP and CAP-USAF decision making processes in 1990-1990 surrounding BDUs, since before the Internet the so-called "echelons above reality" were usually just past Group for most of us (LOL!).  But if you look at the way the changeover was conducted, the only parts of the uniform that really changed were the shirt, trousers & cap.  We continued to wear the same (ultramarine & white) insignia & patches, belt, t-shirts, and boots, as we did with fatigues (well, the boots & belt were the same in the USAF, so it would have been no change either way). 

BDUs were more costly (IIRC, about $25/each for shirt & trousers back then) than the fatigue uniform, and I'm sure that cost difference was a decision-making factor as it related to insignia & accouterment changes.  (honestly, the white t-shirt in BDUs? Blech. We all screamed about that one, too..)
(here, have a pic from 1991. Yes, thats me on the far right. MI Wing Summer Encampment at Wright Patterson AFB)


Now, that being said about cost, I'm here to tell you that the switchover was pretty freakin' immediate from my 22 year remembery.  We wailed and gnashed our teeth that encampment that year was going to be an unmitigated disaster because people we're going to be in different uniforms. I remember these discussions, and how absolutely silly they seem now. Really? Like it matters? Of course, the services were not playing "musical uniforms" back then like they are now, so I think today we're a little more inured to the concept that people might not be in precisely the same uniform during a period of time.   

Like I said before, I think we might have had 2-3 cadets in fatigues at that encampment.  It was literally like someone flipped a switch from fatigues to BDUs.   (I also think cadets were more highly motivated to pick up "camouflage" which, up until that point in CAP, was essentially strictly verboten)


Regarding availability of boots, I don't know where you live, but where I'm at I have a fair availability of black boots vice sage green.  Like I said, I don't frequent surplus stores as much as I did, since the place I have "nearby" are pretty "meh."  I'm not paying "close to new" prices for crap that is "clearly well-used" when I can get better deals elsewhere.  Now, I have not been to an MCSS since the switchover to ABU, so I can only imagine that the 5 styles of black boots on the shelf have been replaced by 7 styles of sage green "secret sneakers". LOL.   

But heck,  even the local "big lot-style" store here had tan & black Wellcos for $20 (they're alright for probably 60-70% of the cadets, since they're likely going to outgrow those boots in 12-18 months anyway, but I'm not 100% sure how good those boots were going to be over the long term) so there are "more inexpensive boots" available out there.

I own 3 pair of Army tan boots, and I wouldn't be sad to wear those with ABUs if authorized, but I really doubt its going to happen. I still have a pair of speedlace boots, jump boots, flight boots and a wonderful pair of Rockys with Thinsulate that are all in black, so I'm OK that I don't have to go out and get sage green boots now, too. (call me selfish, its OK)   

Keep in mind, too: sometimes the USAF-made decision on a uniform item, like a combat uniform, is based more on "availability in the current logistics channels or possessed by airmen already."  If airmen had tan boots due to wearing DCUs for years before ABUs, then thats why they allowed it.  Like we're allowing black boots.

Personally, I disagree with whether they contribute to our "distinctiveness," but thats my personal opinion.  I think it falls under the "if it looks wrong, it is wrong" concept, but hey, its not my decision and we have bigger fish to fry than the color of the boots.

That being said:
a) My unit has stocks of black boots. Lots. Dozens of pairs in supply and dozens of pairs on feet.  If we went to sage green immediately, there is no way my unit would be able to accommodate assisting cadets with completing their BDUs.   EVERYBODY would be on their own until we could score some DRMO'd boots; and

b) Just like the white t-shirts with BDUs, once we get this out in the field I wonder if there won't be pushback from both the membership and the USAF who go "Ugh, what were we thinking?  That looks like crap.  Here, you can have sage boots, too.  We'll allow that."

BTW:

We're the Air Force Auxiliary as chartered by Congress for ES. We already have our extraordinarily distinctive tapes, insignia, and if this proposition passes as it stands now (I hope to high heaven it doesn't) we'll have full color patches on a uniform that was not even remotely designed to allow for such a thing.

ES is just ONE of the THREE Congressionally chartered missions, and really doesn't have much bearing on the discussion of boots, so why bring it up?  You think BDUs were designed to have full-color patches & ultramarine nametapes put on 'em? LOL. 

I won't address the fashion issues, but suffice to say that I do not believe we're attempting to gain Tim Gunn's approval on this.

[Hawk200]

I read the statement about BDUs becoming CAP Distinctive in the draft of 39-1.

Had to read back, it was a later post that referenced.

Anyway, someone needs a refresher. The BDU is an Army designed uniform, CAP can't just "adopt" it as their own simply because the Army isn't currently using it. That's the same issue as HWSNBN deciding that he would include Army uniform items for a CAP uniform. Didn't go over too well then, and even with short memory, that's gonna present an issue again.

Who decided that BDU's were going to "CAP distinctive?"

[NIN]

Anyway, someone needs a refresher. The BDU is an Army designed uniform, CAP can't just "adopt" it as their own simply because the Army isn't currently using it. That's the same issue as HWSNBN deciding that he would include Army uniform items for a CAP uniform. Didn't go over too well then, and even with short memory, that's gonna present an issue again.

Who decided that BDU's were going to "CAP distinctive?"

I think you'll find that the Army is like "Hey, man, don't blame us for that!"

Like the Marines say "Sorry, MARPAT is ours only!"

[NIN]

BTW, according to well-placed sources, neither draft of the uniform manual suggests BDUs as a new "Corporate-only" uniform. BBDUs, still.

[kd8gua]

Well, I read the draft, and it stated that BDUs, BBDUs, and ABUs will all be allowed. There was no phaseout date for BDU or BBDU, but there was a phaseout of 1 Jan 2015 for the reverse flag patch and the change to navy/silver name tapes.

If we are to say that because the Army used/designed Woodland BDUs that we can't use that as a Corporate uniform, then we shouldn't be allowed to use BBDUs since the Coast Guard uses them.

[A.Member]

The overseas patch in the pic is merely there to represent placement of a wing patch.

So wing patches are moving shoulders?

I hope that wasn't a serious comment.

If this thread is any indication, uniform discussions/disagreement will safely continue to be at the forefront of CAPTalk for years to come.  This isn't even a reg yet, for cryin' out loud! 

[RogueLeader]

The overseas patch in the pic is merely there to represent placement of a wing patch.

So wing patches are moving shoulders?

I hope that wasn't a serious comment.

If this thread is any indication, uniform discussions/disagreement will continue to be at the forefront of CAPTalk for years to come.  This isn't even a reg yet, for cryin' out loud! 

If the picture (at the start of the thread( is any indication; yes; the wing patch will move to the other shoulder.  I really hope it doesn't, not that I wear my wing patch anyways. . .

[NIN]

If the picture (at the start of the thread( is any indication; yes; the wing patch will move to the other shoulder.  I really hope it doesn't, not that I wear my wing patch anyways. . .

I think that may have been a "placeholder" patch.

[ProdigalJim]

I'm seeing a fair number of people on this thread talking about what's in the draft of the new 39-1. In what locked bunker in Area 51 is this draft being kept...? I'm not seeing it anywhere drafts would normally be posted for comments.

[NIN]

I'm seeing a fair number of people on this thread talking about what's in the draft of the new 39-1. In what locked bunker in Area 51 is this draft being kept...? I'm not seeing it anywhere drafts would normally be posted for comments.

I'm led to believe that the bunker is located somewhere near Maxwell.

("if I told you, I'd have to kill you, yadda, yadda, yadda, actual mileage may vary, Reg. US. Pat. Off.")

I believe these drafts have been circulated among the NUC members and the their respective region commanders to ensure that they're mostly ready for prime time before being placed in front of the membership for comment. 

Having done similar, without some massive scrubbing in advance what you get for feedback 9/10 times is "you need a period in the third sentence of the 2nd paragraph on page 3-7" not "What? Black rigger belts? Are you crazy?"

[ProdigalJim]

Gotcha. I'm eager to read it, especially if the tactical pants thing stays. One of the reasons I detest the polo shirt uniform is the grey polyester pants+black loafers aspect of it. Personally, though my kids are grown and one of them is married, I'm still not ready for polyester trousers pulled up to my sternum. Tactical pants, however, I'd wear.

[kd8gua]

The person who let me view the draft stated that the NUC was not looking at putting out a public draft for comment. It was basically just going to be updated, approved, and released.

Not all regs and manuals go through a public draft.

I'm surprised no one is commenting about the changes to the SMWOG uniform wear that were proposed...

[Eclipse]

Tactical pants, however, I'd wear.

Tactical pants you already may wear, and always could.

[ProdigalJim]

I'm surprised no one is commenting about the changes to the SMWOG uniform wear that were proposed...

Which were...?

[SARDOC]

I'll be sticking with the Blue BDU's as long as they are authorized.  Even if the BDU is determined to be CAP distinctive and I have a number of the BDU's from my prior service days.  I still think the BBDU looks better and if I'm not within grooming standards when the ES call comes in, I don't have to worry about Shaving or a haircut.  I think for the volunteer organization that we are with our Civilian Role in Emergency Services, The BBDU is a great fit for our organization.

As far as the Boots, black are way more prevalent and available in my AOR. Even the Public Safety type tactical boots which are currently authorized with the BBDU.  Another Plus for this uniform by the way.

I know that there is a "heritage" aspect as being the USAF Auxiliary but I think that the functionality of the uniform trumps the associative property with our "parent service" who during an ES scenario we very rarely see.

When it comes to heritage we should display that in the appropriate venues using our Air Force Style Dress and Service uniforms and not necessarily the utility uniform.

[Private Investigator]

In 1991 we all looked good, but then everybody looks better 20 years younger. Of course that is why plastic surgeons make big money.

I see people in ABUs everyday. I am not impressed. When I was in the Marines we still had the pickle suits. A sharp indiviual will starch it and iron it, same with the BDUs. Slackers wear fluff dry. The ABUs look like it is "fluff dry". I am in McDonalds and 12 Airmen come in for lunch and they look like average joes. From my POV the ABU only looks good on men with fresh haircuts, i.e., crew cut, flat top, high and tight or a buzz cut #3.

JMHO since I am flame proof, ten foot tall and bullet proof too   

[Eclipse]

If, for arguments sake, copies of a draft of 39-1 were distributed to members for their confidential comments and input,
then perhaps we should all consider respecting that confidence and not discuss things which were not intended for public discussion?

Just sayin'

[Private Investigator]

I'm surprised no one is commenting about the changes to the SMWOG uniform wear that were proposed...

Which were...?

The aviator and polo shirt wearing types are easy to appease.   

[Eclipse]

The aviator and polo shirt wearing types are easy to appease. 

You know, you would think so, yet some of the highest-pitched whining noise comes from that crowd.