National Board Uniform Changes 2013

[Hawk200]

Black boots wouldn't bother me. Black T-shirt? No biggie, I guess, even though I've got a couple dozen of tan ones for the Army. I could make it work.

[SierraOneThree]

Well, it's not the boot that was aesthetically designed to match ABUs for one...

Second, *good* black boots are getting harder to find surplus. Jungle boots are poor quality, and your average new black boot price will run about the same as new sage or tan boots. Only one service really truly wears black boots with the uniform as intended, and that's the Navy, meaning your surplus will dry up relatively fast.

Third, sage and tan boots are flooding the market at extraordinarily low prices. You can go on Ebay right now and find good boots for good prices. You can also find awful boots for awesome prices, which is basically what most cadets and a lot of senior members are doing anyway with jungle boots and jump boots.

Those who are looking for quality black boots are finding fewer and fewer options available. Belleville only makes one or two models anymore. Danner's cost over $200 last I checked. I just paid $120 for a set of Tactical Research Khybers in black for my BDUs. Those same boots in green or tan are available surplus for far, far cheaper. Heck, at the local surplus stores there are literally piles taller than I am of tan and green boots, with one or two pairs of black boots in there.

Your same logic can be applied to ABUs as well. Your average BDUs can be gotten easily under $20 a set, but ABUs generally will run you about $90 a set not including boots. From what I've heard, many people brought up that same concern when CAP went to BDUs, but people went out and shelled out for their new uniform.

I'm curious how cadets can ruin suede boots that quickly. I've had mine for going on two years, and as long as I brush and rinse them off, they're fine. I'm not dumping oil on them, but I have trekked through mud, ice, snow, water, sand, and so on in them.

In short, the green boots were/are designed to match the ABUs. Tan is another option as a transition item because USAF did that as well

[billford1]

Black boots make sense to me. Everybody has em. The tan boots wouldn't work with anything else I have.

[SierraOneThree]

Black boots make sense to me. Everybody has em.

But that logic breaks down the second we realize we're talking about transitioning to a uniform that nobody has anyway. :/

[abdsp51]

Black leather is no longer authorized for the AF as they have the sage leather available now for those fields that were initially authorized black.  And the while the AFI may not apply to CAP a good chunk of CAPR39-1 is taken from it.  It was posed that mess dress allowed for a cover and the source was provided. 

[Eclipse]

Second, *good* black boots are getting harder to find surplus. Jungle boots are poor quality, and your average new black boot price will run about the same as new sage or tan boots. Only one service really truly wears black boots with the uniform as intended, and that's the Navy, meaning your surplus will dry up relatively fast.

Surplus? 

Who buys their boots "surplus"?

There are eleventy 12teen sources for boots, retail, internet, MCSS.  The last place most people buy uniform items is a surplus store.

Spend whatever you like for yourself, but your expectations are unrealistic for the average member.

[Grumpy]

There's one ball cap for the AFSOC that looks great. If the same supplier did one like that for "Air Force Auxillary" it might be worth buying for the aviator uniform. Who knows it might look good enough that they would authorize it. Hopefully they wouldn't want it in grey. 
http://www.zazzle.com/air_force_special_operations_command_mesh_hat-148340600789494947
If not they might like this one.
http://www.zazzle.com/usaf_civil_air_patrol_cap_auxilliary_hat-148727013756654511

I like the pink one

[SierraOneThree]

Surplus? 

Who buys their boots "surplus"?

There are eleventy 12teen sources for boots, retail, internet, MCSS.  The last place most people buy uniform items is a surplus store.

Spend whatever you like for yourself, but your expectations are unrealistic for the average member.

So what is the problem with doing the exact same thing for green and tan boots?

[NIN]

In short, the green boots were/are designed to match the ABUs. Tan is another option as a transition item because USAF did that as well

Someone above our pay grades decided:

1) Continuing to wear black boots was more cost-effective for members in the transition, especially cadets;
2) Black boots are still likely more available than the sage-green ones. (and we've never worn tan, so #1 applies for now);
3) Wearing ABUs with black boots will make us more "distinctive" from USAF personnel.

(BTW, I'm still not finding legit USAF sage green boots for less than about $60 or $90 new online and the ones on the lower end of the spectrum are Wellcos, etc.  Buying footwear on Ebay is kind of hit or miss, so the $20-30 used boots there, black or sage green, are sort of a "last-ditch" item.  Last time I was in a surplus store, black was still pretty predominant.)

[SierraOneThree]

Someone above our pay grades decided:

1) Continuing to wear black boots was more cost-effective for members in the transition, especially cadets;
The transition period is purposed to allow for time for people to buy their new uniforms. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've heard cost-efficiency wasn't much of a concern during the BDU switch.

2) Black boots are still likely more available than the sage-green ones. (and we've never worn tan, so #1 applies for now);
I'd say they're about equivalent-to-less-available in the current market. My hobby that I've been extremely involved in over the last 4 years is military gear collection and flipping, and the market for black 8" leather combat boots is drying up since 3/4 branches have phased them out. Even the aforementioned minorities have phased them out, as was addressed earlier.

And tan would be a transitional item, or it could be made standard. USAF authorized tan boots for wear with the ABUs during the phase-in period, it is absolutely reasonable to allow for tan boots for both budget and availability reasoning.

3) Wearing ABUs with black boots will make us more "distinctive" from USAF personnel.
We're the Air Force Auxiliary as chartered by Congress for ES. We already have our extraordinarily distinctive tapes, insignia, and if this proposition passes as it stands now (I hope to high heaven it doesn't) we'll have full color patches on a uniform that was not even remotely designed to allow for such a thing.

In addition to that, it just looks bad. It's a fashion thing, black shoes on very light clothes clashes/looks bad. That is generally overwhelmingly accepted in the fashion world. Dark boots with dark clothes, light boots with light clothes.

This can be considered a con, our distinction from the Air Force. Our last two field uniforms have been very similar, and we wear essentially the same exact dress uniform. In fact, the pickle suit with blue tapes was *exactly* what the Air Force wore for some time. Yes, CAP has pulled some nasty stunts in the past decade or so, and USAF didn't really appreciate it much, but I don't think it will help to turn ABUs into something akin to what a rodeo clown wears.

(BTW, I'm still not finding legit USAF sage green boots for less than about $60 or $90 new online and the ones on the lower end of the spectrum are Wellcos, etc.  Buying footwear on Ebay is kind of hit or miss, so the $20-30 used boots there, black or sage green, are sort of a "last-ditch" item.  Last time I was in a surplus store, black was still pretty predominant.)

What was the general quality and MSRP of those black boots?

I hope I'm not coming across as condescending, that is not my intent. Only to be forward, sir. 

[AngelWings]

I doubt the USAF is going authorize this frankenuniform any time soon. Look at it, it is ugly. It doesn't look right at all.

[skymaster]

One of the reasons put forth by some about why we should not transition to the ABU is cost. While that might have been the case when these uniforms originally came out, that is most certainly NOT the case now. Even a cursory look at price lists from sources such as the U.S. Cavalry Store or AAFES Military Clothing Sales for items that both stock, show about the same prices for both. All I can say is, good luck trying to actually locate any new Woodland BDUs though any official sources; everything the major retailers in the field has is either old stock they still had left over and haven't sold, or Far East-produced knockoff copies (of dubious quality) of Woodland-pattern BDUs.

BDU Uniforms the US Cavalry Store:
Tru-Spec Military BDU/DCU Coat
http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=5385&TabID=548&cs=1
$41.99 - $44.99

Tru-Spec Military BDU/DCU Trousers
http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=5384&TabID=548&cs=1
$41.99 - $44.99

______________________________________________________________________
Propper Men's ABU Coat
http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=16433&tabid=548&catid=2227
$34.99

Propper Mens Air Force ABU Trousers
http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=16434&TabID=548&cs=1
$47.99 - $49.99

And the prices for the ABU uniforms and sage (or black) boots from AAFES Military Clothing Sales are still in the same price range from that source, as referenced below:
General uniform item pricing:
https://shop.aafes.com/shop/Search/default.aspx?category|category_root|11998=Military&category|cat_3000|3009=Men%27s+Uniforms

Black vs. Sage Boot pricing:
http://shop.aafes.com/shop/Search/default.aspx?category|category_root|11998=Military&category|cat_16500|16529=Boots

Now, I can understand the CAP leadership authorising black boots and brown t-shirts in the interim, as an initial cost-saving measure since members who already own a current, complete BDU uniform already have these items. I would be willing to bet money, however, that in the not too distant future, that some ICL or other addendum to 39-1 will come out authorising sage boots, if for no other reason that quality military-spec issue black boots at a decent price are no longer available in bulk from the usual sources. Just try walking into an AAFES MCSS and try to even find black boots in stock; our local MCSS can only get them through special order, with a 4-6 week wait.

[wuzafuzz]

A few observations and notes from the presentation.

The overseas patch in the pic is merely there to represent placement of a wing patch.

The use of black boots was noted as both a cost effectiveness and a CAP distinctiveness item.  Black boot with canvas will be OK.  "Tactical boots" if you will.  Those are readily available at uniform shops serving cops, guards, EMS, etc.

Permitting numerous patches is also an intentional CAP distinctiveness item.  U.S. flag is not proposed for a CAP ABU.

Thread on the name tapes and insignia will be silver, not bright white.   Vanguard still has a lot of ultramarine fabric on hand, just for us.

"If BDUs become CAP distinctive, will weight and grooming standards change for BDU wear?"  If I understood the answer correctly, current standards will still apply.  Did anyone else in the room understand that differently?  (That room was seriously CROWDED.  Don't tell the fire marshal.)

The new 39-1 is coming soon.  It is on Gen. Carr's desk, pending resolution of a couple of questions.  ABU's are NOT included in that draft.

The ABU proposal is currently at CAP-USAF.

The new 39-1 will specifically authorize, but not require, tactical/cargo pants for the polo shirt uniform.  Vanguard will carry those pants...all in the same shade of grey.  Buying "indeterminate grey" pants will still be permitted to keep costs down and preserve ready availability.

The Vanguard rep said they are not happy with the quality of the current polo.  Supplier availability of polo shirts with pockets is very low.  He said they could find better shirts if we lose the pocket. Status TBD.

I might remember more later.

[skymaster]

I doubt the USAF is going authorize this frankenuniform any time soon. Look at it, it is ugly. It doesn't look right at all.

Actually, the pictured combo already HAS been approved by the Air Force for CAP. Wear of the ABU items by CAP has, however, NOT yet been approved by DOD, because it requires a change in the DOD's own regulations to specifically authorise CAP to wear ABUs. While it is extremely likely that DOD regulation change will occur in the very near future (since the AF itself has already approved it, and all Active AF, AF Reserve, Air National Guard troops, as well as most ROTC and JROTC cadets are already authorised), CAP must still wait for final DOD approval before the combo can be worn. The Air Force has no problem with the combo, but the AF still has to wait for DOD approval, and that is what is holding everything up ABU-wise.

[SierraOneThree]

Permitting numerous patches is also an intentional CAP distinctiveness item.  U.S. flag is not proposed for a CAP ABU.

Just to note, the lack of a US flag patch on garrison uniforms is already a policy that 3 of 4 branches have adopted. Only the Army wears US flags full time, so the lack of a flag isn't a CAP-distinctive thing. Dunno if that's what you were implying or not.

[wuzafuzz]

Permitting numerous patches is also an intentional CAP distinctiveness item.  U.S. flag is not proposed for a CAP ABU.

Just to note, the lack of a US flag patch on garrison uniforms is already a policy that 3 of 4 branches have adopted. Only the Army wears US flags full time, so the lack of a flag isn't a CAP-distinctive thing. Dunno if that's what you were implying or not.

The comment about flag wear was just a "by the way" tacked on at the end of the line.

[wuzafuzz]

I doubt the USAF is going authorize this frankenuniform any time soon. Look at it, it is ugly. It doesn't look right at all.

Actually, the pictured combo already HAS been approved by the Air Force for CAP. Wear of the ABU items by CAP has, however, NOT yet been approved by DOD, because it requires a change in the DOD's own regulations to specifically authorise CAP to wear ABUs. While it is extremely likely that DOD regulation change will occur in the very near future (since the AF itself has already approved it, and all Active AF, AF Reserve, Air National Guard troops, as well as most ROTC and JROTC cadets are already authorised), CAP must still wait for final DOD approval before the combo can be worn. The Air Force has no problem with the combo, but the AF still has to wait for DOD approval, and that is what is holding everything up ABU-wise.

I recall comments from the meeting stating that some Air Force stakeholders have yet to approve, or even see, the CAP ABU proposal shown in the image.  I don't know how that squares with the request for a DoD waiver.  Perhaps they are concurrent tasks.

[flyboy53]

A few observations and notes from the presentation.

The overseas patch in the pic is merely there to represent placement of a wing patch.

The use of black boots was noted as both a cost effectiveness and a CAP distinctiveness item.  Black boot with canvas will be OK.  "Tactical boots" if you will.  Those are readily available at uniform shops serving cops, guards, EMS, etc.

Permitting numerous patches is also an intentional CAP distinctiveness item.  U.S. flag is not proposed for a CAP ABU.

Thread on the name tapes and insignia will be silver, not bright white.   Vanguard still has a lot of ultramarine fabric on hand, just for us.

"If BDUs become CAP distinctive, will weight and grooming standards change for BDU wear?"  If I understood the answer correctly, current standards will still apply.  Did anyone else in the room understand that differently?  (That room was seriously CROWDED.  Don't tell the fire marshal.)

The new 39-1 is coming soon.  It is on Gen. Carr's desk, pending resolution of a couple of questions.  ABU's are NOT included in that draft.

The ABU proposal is currently at CAP-USAF.

The new 39-1 will specifically authorize, but not require, tactical/cargo pants for the polo shirt uniform.  Vanguard will carry those pants...all in the same shade of grey.  Buying "indeterminate grey" pants will still be permitted to keep costs down and preserve ready availability.

The Vanguard rep said they are not happy with the quality of the current polo.  Supplier availability of polo shirts with pockets is very low.  He said they could find better shirts if we lose the pocket. Status TBD.

I might remember more later.

Are we talking silver as in silver gray like the shoulder sleeves or [shirt] name tag or metallic silver? Also are the wing patches optional like the in the current policy or is this going to be a mandatory thing again? I though the current policy was wing or special activity patch was optional?

[Майор Хаткевич]

The overseas patch in the pic is merely there to represent placement of a wing patch.

So wing patches are moving shoulders?

[kd8gua]

From what I have gathered, the navy and silver thread combination is supposed to be similar in appearance to the USAF enlisted chevrons. Not a metallic silver but rather a light silver gray.