Failure by the AF to include CAP on the Holm Center web site

[Short Field]

^^^ Sorry, I hit post instead of preview when I got the quotes loaded, so I was typing in what I wanted to say when you saw the quotes. 

[Mustang]

Okay, so the Civil Air Patrol was moved to the Holm Center in June  to be included with JROTC, ROTC, and the Officer Accessions program. 

Technically, it was CAP-USAF that was moved rather than CAP itself, but it does show where the AF thinks CAP generally fits into their overall program.

There's no "technically" about it.  You do realize that the ONLY reason CAP-USAF is part of Air University at all is because it's located at Maxwell, right?  Just to clear up any lingering confusion:

CAP is not part of the Air Force.

CAP is not an Air Force MAJCOM.

CAP is not part of the Air Force.

CAP does not fall under or report to any Air Force MAJCOM.

CAP is not part of the Air Force.

CAP does not report to the Secretary of the Air Force, Secretary of Defense, or President of the United States.

CAP is not part of the Air Force.

CAP answers to Congress, period.

CAP is not part of the Air Force.

Due to CAP's own past buffoonery, its status has basically been relegated to that of "defense contractor".

Oh, and in case you missed it: CAP is not part of the Air Force.

Clear as mud?

[Nick]

Oh, and in case you missed it: CAP is not part of the Air Force.

We're just the Air Force Auxiliary.

Edit: Give 10 USC Chapter 909 a read sometime. It's a good reminder of what our relationship to the Air Force is exactly.

[jimmydeanno]

From our nifty CAP-USAF briefing at NSC a mere few days ago, given by the CAP-USAF commander.

The Air Force / CAP-USAF is on board with our Organization's vision and direction. 

The CAP-USAF and NHQ are working more closely than ever.

The relationship between our organizations is steadily improving (he says it was never really that bad anyway)

The Air Force leaders (all the way to the Secretary of the Air Force) think that CAP is super awesome.

Brig Gen Djuric (who was the keynote speaker at our NSC banquet) is a fantastic leader and extremely supportive of the CAP program.

CAP-USAF and CAP leaders are actively having meetings with Air Force/Government leaders to better communicate our missions.

All ROTC and JROTC instructors have been recently briefed about CAP at some sort of symposium they had.

The USAF loves us, CAP-USAF loves us, we love us.  The Air Force doesn't want to get rid of its auxiliary.

[Spike]

Wow.  Some real negative posts here.

I have always had nothing but a GREAT relationship with the Local Air Force at every unit I have been.  A decade ago, I had a personal relationship with the Base Commander who granted my CAP unit access to everything (except the Commissary).  We were all encouraged to join one of the Clubs on base, and were treated with nothing but respect.  We always sat at the monthly "Commanders Call", and had input on how we could support the Commanders goals and vision. 

All it takes is making an appointment to speak with the Base Commander.  Be genuine, honest and forthright on what you can provide and do for him or her and you will be rewarded.

I have always had a great relationship with the JROTC/ROTC as well.  We provide extra support for them, and they reward us with uniforms, instructors and facilities when needed.  Again, all it takes is an appointment.

Give it a few more months (five to be exact) and you will see the advantages of CAP-USAF moving to the Holm Center.  Just because you may not see or hear what is going on, does not mean something is not going on! 

Who here has actually addressed the Website issue with the PA staff at Holm?  If the answer is "not me".....then you have your answer.  Perhaps sending an email to NHQ PA staff would serve a purpose, but I think if it give it some time you will see it is being taken care of already.

   

[lordmonar]

Another thread about "The Air Forces doesn't (fill in the blank).". 

No, not really.  It is a thread about CAP being ignored by the AF and sure I suppose the person ultimately responsible in this case is the person you named, but that is sort of irrelevant. 

I don't think the AF in general or all that many specific AF personnel have an active dislike for CAP. 

But I think it is indisputable that while local AF unit commanders generally respond positively to requests for assistance from CAP, the AF as a whole treats CAP with benign neglect.  The failure (so far) to include CAP in any meaningful way on this site is a fairly good example of this.

The Air Force holds any organisation that does not directly support THEIR mission with benign neglect.

Ask any fighter squadron member what they know about the comm squadron or the services squadron or CE.....and you will get the same dumb stares as you would get if you asked them about CAP.

Now....having said that....my question to you is.....do you know how any organisation gets added to a web page?

I know.....it works like this...the web master sends out requests to all their subordinate units to send them content.   If there is no content.....well they don't get added.

The specific problem here is not "The Air Force" but the web master at "CAP-USAF".  There is a link to CAP-USAF on the AU page under "other AU links".  The content under the HOLMS Center is simply the same content that used to be under the AFOATS page.

So basically all they did was changed the banner across the top and pressed on.

No big conspiracy or attempt to put CAP into some dark corner for being the bastard step child.

[Strick]

From our nifty CAP-USAF briefing at NSC a mere few days ago, given by the CAP-USAF commander.

The Air Force / CAP-USAF is on board with our Organization's vision and direction. 

The CAP-USAF and NHQ are working more closely than ever.

The relationship between our organizations is steadily improving (he says it was never really that bad anyway)

The Air Force leaders (all the way to the Secretary of the Air Force) think that CAP is super awesome.

Brig Gen Djuric (who was the keynote speaker at our NSC banquet) is a fantastic leader and extremely supportive of the CAP program.

CAP-USAF and CAP leaders are actively having meetings with Air Force/Government leaders to better communicate our missions.

All ROTC and JROTC instructors have been recently briefed about CAP at some sort of symposium they had.

The USAF loves us, CAP-USAF loves us, we love us.  The Air Force doesn't want to get rid of its auxiliary.

what he said.............. I was there  They want us more than ever and our National Cmmander briefs the Air Staff as to what we are doing.   

[Short Field]

The issues with the Holm Center, Scott AFB, and Whiteman AFB are all about relationships between people - not a CAP/USAF relationship.   You just need to keep working to improve communications and relationships because it is all about the people.

Maybe Lordmonar can expand on his squadron's success in getting USAF support.

[Eclipse]

The issues with the Holm Center, Scott AFB, and Whiteman AFB are all about relationships between people - not a CAP/USAF relationship.   You just need to keep working to improve communications and relationships because it is all about the people.

And just for clarity, I'm not aware of any "issues" with Scott, they offer a lot of support to CAP on an ongoing basis.

Scott AFB is about an hour away from my location, not 10 miles, Whiteman is in the state, so naturally thinking, our wing commander went to the air force base inside the wing for things like access to base facilities for cap members and just general support. Cap members have to be sponsored onto Scott and Whiteman now; it used to be we were granted access to clothing sales, or meeting locations on base. When I Sent an email to both bases Public affairs about the situation, the responses were due to a security shift and due to CAP only be AF AUX during missions.

Suggestion - when you start calling military bases outside your wing and region, especially bases with an established, positive relationship with CAP, you first call either local CAP commanders, or the State Director. 

Its required by our program that the SD's are informed any time we deal with the military, and its common courtesy to the local commanders. 

I can almost guarantee you that you would / will get better response and support.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Scott AFB is about an hour away from my location, not 10 miles, Whiteman is in the state, so naturally thinking, our wing commander went to the air force base inside the wing for things like access to base facilities for cap members and just general support. Cap members have to be sponsored onto Scott and Whiteman now; it used to be we were granted access to clothing sales, or meeting locations on base. When I Sent an email to both bases Public affairs about the situation, the responses were due to a security shift and due to CAP only be AF AUX during missions. A dependent child has less trouble sponsoring his teenage friends on base than we as cap members do getting on base in uniform. With my cac card I have access to the base, so several times I have gone onto base and purchased uniform items for members. The general reaction to cap, is a smile and a "that's nice, but you're not real" attitude from almost everyone on these bases. Cap, inside the air force, is looked upon like the red headed step child no one wants to deal with. They smile and say nice things until we leave and then say thank god the wannabe's are gone.  We follow the rules the Air force puts down, we run everything (basically) we do by the air force, so I believe that the higher ranking personnel in the Air force should do more than just pay us the lip service and do something about truly supporting us.

Um, anyone check the regs about CAP access at least to certain AAFES activities?

[NCRblues]

Eclipse, you may need to re-read what I put down. We never contacted scott afb because it was not in the wing or region, so thanks for that great bit of info.  BuckeyeDEJ, the base commander, of any base has the ability to tell anyone they are not allowed on his base, no matter what cap or cap-usaf regs state. I am very sick of getting jumped on, for putting down what has happened, or is happening around my local area. You all need to calm down, and realize you're speaking to other VOLUNTEERS, not your subordinates. Some on this site are very nice and helpful, others come here to blast people to make them feel better and you know who you are.

[lordmonar]

The issues with the Holm Center, Scott AFB, and Whiteman AFB are all about relationships between people - not a CAP/USAF relationship.   You just need to keep working to improve communications and relationships because it is all about the people.

Maybe Lordmonar can expand on his squadron's success in getting USAF support.

We get nothing but great support from Nellis AFB, NV ANG or Creech AFB.

We get O-rides 3-4 times a year, ramp visits, Red Flag visits, Threat Training Facility Visits, they are hosting next years Encampment on base.

As for Big Blue support.....the SUAV program is worth multi-millions of dollars.....if the USAF had problems with CAP I don't think we would see any of that.

This is a non-issue.   Any push back by local bases is most likely just because operational realities just don't allow a lot of extra support.

[PHall]

Scott AFB is about an hour away from my location, not 10 miles, Whiteman is in the state, so naturally thinking, our wing commander went to the air force base inside the wing for things like access to base facilities for cap members and just general support. Cap members have to be sponsored onto Scott and Whiteman now; it used to be we were granted access to clothing sales, or meeting locations on base. When I Sent an email to both bases Public affairs about the situation, the responses were due to a security shift and due to CAP only be AF AUX during missions. A dependent child has less trouble sponsoring his teenage friends on base than we as cap members do getting on base in uniform. With my cac card I have access to the base, so several times I have gone onto base and purchased uniform items for members. The general reaction to cap, is a smile and a "that's nice, but you're not real" attitude from almost everyone on these bases. Cap, inside the air force, is looked upon like the red headed step child no one wants to deal with. They smile and say nice things until we leave and then say thank god the wannabe's are gone.  We follow the rules the Air force puts down, we run everything (basically) we do by the air force, so I believe that the higher ranking personnel in the Air force should do more than just pay us the lip service and do something about truly supporting us.

Um, anyone check the regs about CAP access at least to certain AAFES activities?

At the Base Commander's discretion.

[Eclipse]

Eclipse, you may need to re-read what I put down. We never contacted scott afb because it was not in the wing or region,

Oh, my apologies.  I must have misread what you said...

Scott AFB is about an hour away from my location, not 10 miles, Whiteman is in the state, so naturally thinking, our wing commander went to the air force base inside the wing for things like access to base facilities for cap members and just general support. Cap members have to be sponsored onto Scott and Whiteman now; it used to be we were granted access to clothing sales, or meeting locations on base. When I Sent an email to both bases Public affairs about the situation, the responses were due to a security shift and due to CAP only be AF AUX during missions.

Clearly my misreading your post in thinking you had contacted both bases.  No idea where I could get that idea.

[Mustang]

Oh, and in case you missed it: CAP is not part of the Air Force.

We're just the Air Force Auxiliary.

Edit: Give 10 USC Chapter 909 a read sometime. It's a good reminder of what our relationship to the Air Force is exactly.

I'm very familiar with that particular statute--especially Section 9442(a), where it says when we're an auxiliary and when we aren't:

"The Civil Air Patrol is a volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force when the services of the Civil Air Patrol are used by any department or agency in any branch of the Federal Government."

Prior to Jay Bobick's buffoonery in the late '90s, we were always the Air Force Auxiliary; now, it's Aux On, Aux Off....

[FW]

Prior to Jay Bobick's buffoonery in the late '90s, we were always the Air Force Auxiliary; now, it's Aux On, Aux Off....

An interesting assumption....  I would love to hear some explanation supporting it.   

My "take" goes all the way back to 1995; when a certain SECAF found out he couldn't remove a certain national/cc for cause.... then again, in 1998 when a certain CAP/NB decided to demote a general officer in CAP, then again.... when a certain "white paper" separating the "Aux" from the "Corp" circulated through the Pentegon later the same year....because of the above; and, serious charges made against CAP for serious mismanagement of appropriated dollars, unlawful means by which we obtained appropriated dollars and, a severe lack of transparancy and/or accountablilty in any management practice.  IMHO, no one single person caused this.  But then again, what do I know....

Now, how does this relate to the Holm Center web site?

[IceNine]

In my humble opinion, i believe cap is slowly moving further and further away from Ma Blue. At least in My local area, and the greater St. Louis region, Air force support with anything is unheard of. YMMV

Are you talking support from Scott?  Because if you're saying they won't help you then it's your fault.  They are great to IL.

[jimmydeanno]

I believe cap is slowly moving further and further away from Ma Blue. At least in my local area, and the greater St. Louis region, Air force support with anything is unheard of. YMMV

I believe that you are wrong.

Currently, appropriated funds account for ~90% of our annual budget.  With that money we performed ~113,000 hours of Air Force Assigned Missions, an increase from last year. 

CAP-USAF and NHQ are working together to generate more missions to enable us to be competitive and nimble in our market.  This cooperation requires a better relationship between our organizations.

NHQ is implementing their strategic plan to better balance the appropriated funding with corporate funding.  This also requires the acquisition of Non-Air Force assigned missions, like State taskings, etc.  (This is also where the "part-time" Auxiliary comes in, it enables us to do this).

If we have a budget that includes 50% Appropriated monies and 50% corporate monies, that doesn't mean that the AF is pushing us away, it means that we're doing the same amount of stuff for the Air Force AND 40% more "other" missions.  That is not a bad thing, it is good for our organization.

Our briefing at NSC stated, rather matter-of-factly, that we may not alway be legally recognized as the Auxiliary but the Air Force in no way wants to lose its auxiliary.

If you are not able to receive support at the local level, it sounds to me that you need to develop a better local relationship with your State Directors, CAPRAP Folks, etc to help you get a better relationship with your local installation commanders.

YMMV.

[Strick]

Colonel Ward ,USAF-CAP Commander stated that when we are on assigned AF misions we are the Auxiliary with a capital A and when not on assigned missons we are still the Air Forces'auxiliary .   

[Nick]

I like that perspective.