The Relevance of the Chaplain to CAP...

[pixelwonk]

the difference between you 'n me is I make this look good.

now back to some chaplainny stuff.

[Walkman]

On the topic of teaching ML without specifically mentioning Christianity or another religion, it's been my observation that a large component of the world's faiths have a central core of similar moral guidelines (stealing, murder, lying, etc). In our last ML class our Chaplain presented three quotes, one from the Bible, one from the Torah, and a Buddhist proverb that all made the same point. There is a lot of collective wisdom in the world that can guide us in building character and making choices. I think our Chaplain does a good job of keeping things universal in public and personal in private.

[Nomex Maximus]

If God is not a reality, then what motivation do I have to care about being moral with respect to you?

ML, without a real basis in fact, is empty and powerless to help us.

[Walkman]

If God is not a reality, then what motivation do I have to care about being moral with respect to you?

ML, without a real basis in fact, is empty and powerless to help us.

I guess my point was that a Chaplain doesn't have to present ML only on the basis of their own faith. While I am a Christian (and a lay Youth Minister) I can listen a lesson presented by a Rabbi and reference my own faith and scripture to enhance what he is saying in a way  that deepens my understanding of his lesson. if you look at the three largest faiths that make up our Chaplain corps; Christian, Jewish & Muslim, you'll find that all share a belief in one God (yes there are many different interpretations of that God, but...), that they all espouse certain moral rights and wrongs that are similar. There is room for all of us to learn from each other's faith, IMHO.

(BTW-let's not let this devolve into a bashing of religion thread)

[Nomex Maximus]

No, I am not here to argue religion.  I just see a great conflict between the CAP idea of having a chaplain and the modern day realities of secularism, also I see a conflict between a Christian minister (i.e, most CAP chaplains) trying to teach morals and character development without  reaching for the gospel.

Yes, Judaism, Christianity and Islam teach some similar ideas of justice and righteousness, but if you say that each is as valid as the other, then none of them can really be true... if none are "really" true (i.e, the vague general purpose universal CAP God doesn't really exist) then there is no real basis for morality or even justice. If I fear no God, then why should I care about what you think if I wrong you? Thus I say Moral Leadership and Character Development without a real God is empty andd pointless.

 

[Eclipse]

Thus I say Moral Leadership and Character Development without a real God is empty and pointless.

"Do unto others" requires no deity to be effective.  It is a self-evident core component of a civilized society.

The co-opting of the term by various religions does not detract from its real definition:

Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") has three principal meanings. In its first descriptive usage, morality means a code of conduct held to be authoritative in matters of right and wrong, whether by society, philosophy, religion, or individual conscience. In its second, normative and universal, sense, morality refers to an ideal code of conduct, one which would be espoused in preference to alternatives by all rational people, under specified conditions. To deny 'morality' in this sense is a position known as moral skepticism.[1] In its third usage 'morality' is synonymous with ethics, the systematic philosophical study of the moral domain.

Without morals and ethics, there is no justification for the laws which allow a society to function.

[Nomex Maximus]

Thus I say Moral Leadership and Character Development without a real God is empty and pointless.

"Do unto others" requires no deity to be effective.  It is a self-evident core component of a civilized society.

The co-opting of the term by various religions does not detract from its real definition:

Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") has three principal meanings. In its first descriptive usage, morality means a code of conduct held to be authoritative in matters of right and wrong, whether by society, philosophy, religion, or individual conscience. In its second, normative and universal, sense, morality refers to an ideal code of conduct, one which would be espoused in preference to alternatives by all rational people, under specified conditions. To deny 'morality' in this sense is a position known as moral skepticism.[1] In its third usage 'morality' is synonymous with ethics, the systematic philosophical study of the moral domain.

Without morals and ethics, there is no justification for the laws which allow a society to function.

To your first point: if there is no real God, then why should I care what YOU think of anything I may do?

To your second point, you are simply saying that without morals and ethics we'd be real sad. Yep, we sure would. But just that we'd be sad without morals and ethics doesn't mean that they have any basis without a real God. 

[JayT]

No, I am not here to argue religion.  I just see a great conflict between the CAP idea of having a chaplain and the modern day realities of secularism, also I see a conflict between a Christian minister (i.e, most CAP chaplains) trying to teach morals and character development without  reaching for the gospel.

Yes, Judaism, Christianity and Islam teach some similar ideas of justice and righteousness, but if you say that each is as valid as the other, then none of them can really be true... if none are "really" true (i.e, the vague general purpose universal CAP God doesn't really exist) then there is no real basis for morality or even justice. If I fear no God, then why should I care about what you think if I wrong you? Thus I say Moral Leadership and Character Development without a real God is empty andd pointless.

 

We live, and we die, and everything else is just filler. This is a good thing, because it means we, and we alone, as responsible for our own actions.

[RplnXbrnt]

If God is not a reality, then what motivation do I have to care about being moral with respect to you?

ML, without a real basis in fact, is empty and powerless to help us.

Consider this: morality does not necessarily require God. If you need a motivation to be good (e.g., fear of punishment, such as damnation,  or hope of reward, such as eternal salvation) . . . it seems to me like you're not really a good person. If you're only doing something "good" because it somehow benefits you, rather than doing so simply because it is "good," then  you're not really being as good as possible, are you? You're being selfish and ego-centric. Any seemingly altruistic or generous or benevolent, etc. act that you may perform is rendered as vacuous.

To your first point: if there is no real God, then why should I care what YOU think of anything I may do?

To your second point, you are simply saying that without morals and ethics we'd be real sad. Yep, we sure would. But just that we'd be sad without morals and ethics doesn't mean that they have any basis without a real God. 

To your first response: it's not about what anyone else thinks. It's about right and wrong, period. If you need God as some sort of motivation to perform righteous acts, then you are looking for some sort of approval from someone -- that being God. Why should the presence or absence of God have anything to do with whether or not you care about OUR opinions?

To your second: that's not what he's saying at all.

Without morals and ethics, there is no justification for the laws which allow a society to function.

That's not particularly true, either. Laws are, in part at least (consider the case of traffic laws), present to preserve order. Order doesn't necessarily carry with it any moral weight in one direction or the other -- we just know that if we want to have a functional society, we have to have laws. Speeding on an empty highway is illegal, but I think it's quite a stretch of logic to suggest that it's immoral.

[dwb]

Jumping back to the OP for a moment...

I am wondering how CAP reconciles this in this day and age of radical secularism.

I'm sorry, this age of what?

Read American Theocracy, then come back and tell me that we live in an age of secularism.  Better yet, save yourself from having to read Phillips' dry writing, and just watch the presidential candidates from both major parties pander to the wants and wishes of the SBC.

The South has risen again, my friend.  I sometimes forget up here in the Liberal Northeast, but you only need to look at the trend of nationally elected politicians to be reminded.

[wingnut]

Well here we are, the question at hand is 'are we a quasi Military organization" an official Auxiliary of the USAF? Answer:  YES

Chaplains play an important and vital role in a soldiers life , who chooses them to be a part of. No soldier is required to attend a service.

Once recently a CAP Chaplain spoke during the Fosset mission, I was touched because his focus on his 5 minute talk was on US, the men and women there risking our lives to help a fellow man. nothing else, just about us helping our fellow man. If I had wanted to I could have searched him out later to pray with him. we needed that morality review, that ethic check it was uplifting. After he was done then the IC chew ed us out for screwups.

trained CAP Chaplains are trained to know the boundary, go past it and it should be reported but I think a gentle reminder is in order first, because it is really what is in their heart that counts. No one wants CAP to be labeled a Christian fundamentalist movement, but it has been a problem in the Active military. I actively Teach Middle East History and Cultural awareness, I would be the first to jump up in the face of a chaplain who goes over the line, but with respect

with that said, I seldom go to church, but when I was in the Middle east working for Uncle Sam, I wore a Gold Cross big enough to scare off Dracula. (sorry guys not ever in Uniform), protection, everyone thought I was a tourist (money spender) :angel:

[flyerthom]

Thus I say Moral Leadership and Character Development without a real God is empty and pointless.

"Do unto others" requires no deity to be effective.  It is a self-evident core component of a civilized society.

The co-opting of the term by various religions does not detract from its real definition:

Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") has three principal meanings. In its first descriptive usage, morality means a code of conduct held to be authoritative in matters of right and wrong, whether by society, philosophy, religion, or individual conscience. In its second, normative and universal, sense, morality refers to an ideal code of conduct, one which would be espoused in preference to alternatives by all rational people, under specified conditions. To deny 'morality' in this sense is a position known as moral skepticism.[1] In its third usage 'morality' is synonymous with ethics, the systematic philosophical study of the moral domain.

Without morals and ethics, there is no justification for the laws which allow a society to function.

To your first point: if there is no real God, then why should I care what YOU think of anything I may do?

To your second point, you are simply saying that without morals and ethics we'd be real sad. Yep, we sure would. But just that we'd be sad without morals and ethics doesn't mean that they have any basis without a real God. 

Morality and ethics are not necessarily tied to the existence of a deity. If one is oriented towards a Natural Law ethical view then one regards certain principles as universal - not based on a theological root but simply universal in man's nature. One can look to Kholeberg's work in developmental psychology to seek a scientific basis for this ethical theorem.  A situational ethical view looks for the greatest good based on the current conundrum. Once again a theist view is not necessary to create a values system.

That being said, if one makes morality simply an intellectual exercise, it eliminates the one key feature that should drive any system of ethics - love.  Love of fellow man is the foundation of all true ethical systems. There is no reason for moral action without love, sans the desire to grow together as people, to be there in the time of need, or know in our time of need someone is there for us. And it is the concept of agape love that ties morality to spirituality. 

Isn't it a love of our fellow man the inspires us to spend all this time and treasure volunteering? It is a sense of community, based on giving back, that put us in a CAP uniform initially. Here is where chaplains remain relevant in CAP. They understand the sense of agape that drives us, and they understand the underlying compassionate nature of the volunteer and can stoke and nurture it. It enables us to do this job and raises us up as human bingings.


(no, I'm not a clergy person or an MLO, nor did I stay at a holiday inn express...
but I did spend four years in a Jesuit gulag university )

[wingnut]

OH Boy

I think you guy want to attack each other on belief systems and not talk about the role of a CAP Chaplain or Military Chaplain.

So Go ahead blow hot air

[Nomex Maximus]

The discussion here is about how CAP uses chaplains. I am not here to argue religion, but I do have to touch on some points to explain why I think there is a major conflict with what CAP is trying to do in terms of moral leadership.

I am a Christian as I hold that the God of the Bible is a reality and that he is the Lord of my life. The reason why I have worth and purpose is that God says I have worth and purpose. The reason why you have worth and purpose to me is that I know that you matter to God. My purpose in all of eternity is to know, serve and enjoy God and all else is of no real consequence. Since you matter to God, then you matter to me. in fact you matter a very great deal to God and so you are to matter a great deal to me as well. It is right and proper for us all to matter to each other because we are all made in His image.

But take God out of the picture - insist that he does not exist and that he does not matter. Why should I care about you? The only reason I would care about you is if for some reason you matter to me, perhaps you own a nice airplane and I want you to let me fly it. Or, perhaps some social or political circumstances give you a power over me that I must not offend - but while you may have some power over me, there is not reason that I have to like it. Perhaps though you have no great power over me and you argue that I should care about what you think or what the group thinks just because it is somehow the "right thing to do" or because it is "honorable" or "decent" or "just". I would counter that there is simply no reason for me to agree with you.  If I fail to do the right thing, or the honorable thing or teat is just or decent, so what as long as it is what I wanted to do.

Yes, if there were no God behind our ethics then I might very well wish that people would still act ethically, do justice and be nice. I wouldn't want anyone to hurt me or those that do matter to me. But I would have no confidence that anyone would have any real reason to act ethically, just or be nice - because everyone else is ultimately just as selfish as I am. Without a real God at the center of your ethical system you have nothing but emptiness and despair.

Now, I am not trying to say that God exists because if he didn't then we'd be sad. That would be a fallacy. If you believe that the God of the Bible does not exist then it would seem to me that you have very little real hope that your system of ethics will hold up under stress. Why should it? In fact, I would think that you would be hoping that there are lots of Christians out there who do think there is a real God and that they need to obey the moral rules that (fictitious) God.

So here we are in CAP, trying to morally lead our troops and to develop their character and to offer them solace in times of stress and sorrow. With what will you do this? A moral system that no one has to obey? An ethical system that varies from person to person as each person sees fit to apply or not apply? That is tha conflict I see CAP as having in the moral leadership department.

[MIKE]

Since we can't seem to stay on topic, and since discussions of this nature never end well... I'm saving time and killing this one now.