Enlisted Troops Saluting CAP "Officers"

[vorteks]

I was on a military base recently for a CAP function working with cadets. A USAF airman saluted me as we passed each other in the parking lot after the event. I can assure you I wasn't expecting or even hoping for that (in fact I was extremely humbled). I was wearing the corporate uniform with the newly authorized black fleece and ultramarine blue tapes and grade insignia. Since that uniform doesn't require a hat, and I wasn't wearing one, I didn't think I was supposed to return the salute, so I just nodded and said "thank you" as I passed by.

Did I screw up?

I've been in CAP for less than a year, and I didn't serve in the military. The last thing I want to do is show any kind of disrespect to our folks in uniform.

[lordmonar]

You should have returned the salute.

But good on you to nod and accept the greeting.

Remember that airman are taught to "when in doubt, whip it out".  Some bases have forgien or join service officers and unlike here on CAP TALK where we are all experts on the uniforms of every service in existence.....most airman look for shiny on the hat!.

It is NEVER....NEVER disrespectful to return a salute.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Rule of thumb: If someone throws up a salute - return it.

You probably confused the airman with your appearance more than anything, so by at least thanking him, he got the point that you appreciate it, and perhaps aren't allowed to salute.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

This is a bit of a switch...normally we hear of usually apocryphal and baseless rumours about CAP officers trolling for salutes from military personnel!

As I have said, rarely have I got a salute from a USAF Airman/NCO...almost all of them come from other services (even Marines!).

In fact, I had to calm a National Guard soldier at an airshow who was worried he didn't salute me quickly enough, when he wasn't obligated to do so at all.

Veritec, as others have said, return the salute - unless your hands are full, carrying something, then just acknowledge with a friendly greeting,

I don't think how you reacted was inappropriate at all...it would have been had you ignored the Airman...but it is instructive for future reference.

There are some in CAP (and even more in the Coast Guard Auxiliary, in my experience), who believe that we need to stop and explain to military personnel that they don't need to salute us, but I call Bravo Sierra on that...as others have said, return the salute/greeting, and move on.

And, yes, I am grateful whenever I receive a salute, but I am equally grateful just to get a friendly greeting from a military member.

[MIKE]

Since I have a CAPP 151 approved excuse not to salute I usually opt for a cheerful greeting appropriate to the time of day like "Good morning, Airman." and a smile.  I would try to avoid "Thank you." if at all possible... though it is pretty clear that you were ambushed in this case.

[PHall]

Since I have a CAPP 151 approved excuse not to salute I usually opt for a cheerful greeting appropriate to the time of day like "Good morning, Airman." and a smile.  I would try to avoid "Thank you." if at all possible... though it is pretty clear that you were ambushed in this case.

Ambushed??? How is rendering a salute an ambush?  The Airman was simply following that old rule "When in doubt, salute."

It's against the regs (AF and CAP) to fail to render a salute to someone entitled to one.
It's not against the regs to salute someone who is not entitled to one.
Especially if you're following that rule...

[lordmonar]

ambushed in that no one taught him the correct rules for saluting and what to do in the event of receiving one.

[PHall]

ambushed in that no one taught him the correct rules for saluting and what to do in the event of receiving one.

That's still not a "ambush". That's his leadership failing him.

[Eclipse]

It's also a little tunnel visioned - you're going on an active base and it never occurs to you someone might salute?

[PHall]

It's also a little tunnel visioned - you're going on an active base and it never occurs to you someone might salute?

What, you think we don't salute on Reserve Bases?

[LSThiker]

How is rendering a salute an ambush?

When your platoon purposely lines up about every 20 feet to force you to salute each and every Soldier as you walk out the door.  I never realized how long 30 people can be to walk.  Or when those same Soldiers purposefully chase you through a parking lot to make you salute. 

[Eclipse]

It's also a little tunnel visioned - you're going on an active base and it never occurs to you someone might salute?

What, you think we don't salute on Reserve Bases?

Active as in "activity" not who is assigned there. We have an Army base in my state
where we teach rider ed and you can go the entire weekend without ever seeing anyone,
let alone uniforms.

[coudano]

As a newly minted senior member (former cadet), I was a little off-set the first time an enlisted military member saluted me in my CAP senior member uniform. One of those "crystal clear" memories... I was walking back to my car at the parking lot of the BX after eating lunch at burger king in the food court, probably on the way back to wing hq. I think it was a thursday (ha)

Funny thing is that I'm sure I wouldn't have thought a thing of it, if it was a cadet. Or another senior member.
Somehow didn't seem deserving of it from an actual military member.  Technically not deserving of it, anyway. The right answer is not to downplay it or correct the person putting up the salute.


Anyway, after my little moment of introspection there at the parking lot a long time ago, the right answer to an extension of courtesy, respect, (and quite frankly, morale) is courtesy, respect, and morale in turn.


CAP misses the boat on this, I think. I certainly don't think I "got it" until some point after I stopped being a cadet... (which is ridiculous)
We get so tied up in the technicalities of what to do and when to do it (and what NOT to do and when NOT to do it) that I think we forget about the FAR more important _WHY_.



I go out of my way to never avoid a salute (though I don't troll for them either), and I make sure that if one is extended to me, I return it sharply, with eye contact, and a verbal greeting (by name if I know it). Every time.

Last time I passed an airman whose hands were too full to salute (but greeted me anyway) I turned around and went back to the door I just came out of (that airman was headed towards) and opened it so she could get inside without having to shift around what she was carrying.  That's not doctrinal military customs and courtesies.  It's just plain common sense.


It's not a secret code. It's just basic manners.


I've seen too many people duck, hide, avoid, throw some sloppy trash return salute up, mutter, grumble, etc.
When that happens, it just takes someone's attempt at courtesy, respect, and morale, and says in a loud booming voice that it's not a big deal to me. Absolutely unacceptable (bordering on abhorrent) from anyone in a position to receive a salute.

***Not suggesting that the OP did this, i'm talking about other people i've witnessed at other times before, and after.

[coudano]

How is rendering a salute an ambush?

When your platoon purposely lines up about every 20 feet to force you to salute each and every Soldier as you walk out the door. 

Now that's just good fun.   

[coudano]

. dang it

[PHall]

The only time I go trolling for salutes is at Commissioning Ceremonies!  Don't forget your silver dollar!

[vorteks]

Thanks a lot for your replies.

It's also a little tunnel visioned - you're going on an active base and it never occurs to you someone might salute?

No it really doesn't.

I've been on base several times with other CAP officers, and no one has ever been saluted by military personnel that I've ever noticed.

And I've never been saluted by a cadet, either, because I'm never wearing any kind of hat when in the corporate basic uniform outdoors (other seniors who wear the woodland BDUs or dress blues with flight cap are always saluted outdoors). Seems that's what the cadets are taught.

I've completed Level 1 and OBC, and the most relevant guidance I've seen in those materials for this situation is also in CAPP 151 (page 6):

When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of
what the officer is wearing. For example, uniformed cadets salute their
squadron commander even if that commander is in civilian attire. In
such instances, the commander typically would verbally acknowledge
the salute, but not return it.

So this does seem to be a gray area at best, judging by the behavior of the cadats, your responses, and also the feedback of several of my AF and Army veteran coworkers I asked today about this situation. There was no disagreement among my ex-military coworkers -- they all said they would not have saluted me in the first place (since I wasn't wearing military insignia or a cover), and second of all, it wouldn't be right for me to return a salute since I wasn't wearing a cover.

So I dunno.

[Eclipse]

it wouldn't be right for me to return a salute since I wasn't wearing a cover.

Where does this nonsense come from?

Whether or not you are wearing a hat has nothing to do with saluting, especially in CAP, and doubly in regards to cadets.

So this does seem to be a gray area at best, judging by the behavior of the cadats, your responses, and also the feedback of several of my AF and Army veteran coworkers I asked today about this situation. There was no disagreement among my ex-military coworkers -- they all said they would not have saluted me in the first place (since I wasn't wearing military insignia or a cover), and second of all, it wouldn't be right for me to return a salute since I wasn't wearing a cover.

They also aren't in a service where 1/2 the membership isn't allowed to wear a uniform that has a required hat,
yet that same population generally outranks those who do.

Their opinion is relevent in a general sense military-to-military, but less so for CAP.

It's real easy.  If you're in >any< CAP uniform, you salute superior officers, military or not.
Don't filter, don't' editorialize about their head covering.  Salute and move on.

I've probably spent as much or more time on an active military base as anyone else in CAP who is not
assigned to NHQ and wasn't prior military, and I can tell you that the one thing that really stands out
inside the gates vs. on the street is the general acknowledgment of everyone else's presence.

People look each other in the eye, salute with proper courtesies, or at least recognize the presence of other beings.
They aren't buried in their phones, or so lost in their own conversations that they are ambivalent to
the rest of the world around them.

It the way everyone should act when they are out in the world, and no more complicated then, as mentioned, common courtesy.

[vorteks]

it wouldn't be right for me to return a salute since I wasn't wearing a cover.

Where does this nonsense come from?

It says in my post where it came from.

[Eclipse]

^Yes, that's my point.  People improperly trained, inexperienced, or more interested in making
some bizarre statements then just saluting and moving on.

When you are in a CAP uniform, especially at a CAP activity, you are not in "civilian attire" in the context of
151, and the expectation is that full courtesies apply at all times.

[vorteks]

^Yes, that's my point.  People improperly trained, inexperienced, or more interested in making
some bizarre statements then just saluting and moving on.

Well, I don't doubt that improper training is involved somewhere in this business, but my friends who served active duty get the benefit of the doubt from me concerning military customs and courtesies.

When you are in a CAP uniform, especially at a CAP activity, you are not in "civilian attire" in the context of
151, and the expectation is that full courtesies apply at all times.

OK I'll buy that. I think I feel comfortable enough now after this discussion to return the salute next time, even with a bare head. I guess I'll have to ask the commander whether there needs to be some clarification for the cadets.

Thanks everyone!

[vorteks]

... I would try to avoid "Thank you." if at all possible...

Oh really. Why is that?

[coudano]

to return the salute next time, even with a bare head.

You do understand that a cadet might very well report to you (an officer) indoors, right?
In fact it is an item that cadets are specifically trained and tested on in achievement 1.
Are you going to return that salute, though neither you nor the cadet is wearing a hat?

That said, see again my post about getting wrapped around the axle about what and when, and forgetting to pay attention to the why(!)

[Private Investigator]

You should have returned the salute.

But good on you to nod and accept the greeting.

Remember that airman are taught to "when in doubt, whip it out".  Some bases have forgien or join service officers and unlike here on CAP TALK where we are all experts on the uniforms of every service in existence.....most airman look for shiny on the hat!.

It is NEVER....NEVER disrespectful to return a salute.

In the gray/white aviator shirt I have been asked if I was Canadian on a few occassions.

Salute me, I salute back. 

[Luis R. Ramos]

Veritec, if people in CAP would look to what the military does, you would go crazy!

CAP is not military.

Some services salute with hat, others don't.

As an example look how each service abbreviates grade.

One has LtCol, another uses LT COL.

Air Force abbreviates First Lieutenant as 1st Lt, Army as 1Lt, Marine Corps 1stLt.

See the spaces and nuances?

(Guide from http://www.colorado.edu/NROTC/forms/US%20Military%20Rank%20Abbreviations.pdf)

So if your military friend is from the Army, he is wrong according to the Air Force. And so on.

The BEST RESOURCE to use is... What the CAP does! [/u]Ask your CAP friends!

[THRAWN]

You should have returned the salute.

But good on you to nod and accept the greeting.

Remember that airman are taught to "when in doubt, whip it out".  Some bases have forgien or join service officers and unlike here on CAP TALK where we are all experts on the uniforms of every service in existence.....most airman look for shiny on the hat!.

It is NEVER....NEVER disrespectful to return a salute.

In the gray/white aviator shirt I have been asked if I was Canadian on a few occassions.

Salute me, I salute back. 

Glad I'm not the only one that was raised with "Walk my post from flank to flank, salute all...ahem....people....above my rank..." It's been said, but if you're saluted, return it. Don't overthink it.

[vorteks]

You do understand that a cadet might very well report to you (an officer) indoors, right?

Of course. I have a cadet in the program who's been through it a couple of times. It's also covered quite clearly in CAPP 151, but that's a specific situation that doesn't necessarily inform the one I was in.

Veritec, if people in CAP would look to what the military does, you would go crazy!

Wow... really? I thought just about everything we do, especially what we teach cadets, is based on military customs and courtesies.

CAP is not military.

Obviously, but see my above remark.

So if your military friend is from the Army, he is wrong according to the Air Force. And so on.

I get your point, although in this case my friends from different service branches were of one accord in their reaction to the situation.

The BEST RESOURCE to use is... What the CAP does! [/u]Ask your CAP friends!

Ergo my post to this forum.

And thanks again for all the responses. I know what to do next time, even though there seems to be no clear rule documented for that particular situation. The only loose end is the fact that cadets aren't saluting seniors outside who are not wearing a cover. There must be something to it, but I don't know the source of it, and I'm not going to be the one to rile anyone up over it.

... I would try to avoid "Thank you." if at all possible...

That's interesting, and I'd still like to know where you're coming from on that one.

[Eclipse]

Veritec, if people in CAP would look to what the military does, you would go crazy!

Wow... really? I thought just about everything we do, especially what we teach cadets, is based on military customs and courtesies.

"Based on" is not "equal to".  As I mentioned before, the military doesn't have 1/2 its members in a different uniform with an
ambiguous nature.  If everyone in the organization is compelled to wear the same uniform, including the requirement to
wear a hat, then "no hat no salute" might be a shorthand that works in most cases.  That doesn't fit CAP for a number of reasons.

So if your military friend is from the Army, he is wrong according to the Air Force. And so on.

I get your point, although in this case my friends from different service branches were of one accord in their reaction to the situation.

Consult the "Book of Shuman" for why this is an issue.

... I would try to avoid "Thank you." if at all possible...

That's interesting, and I'd still like to know where you're coming from on that one.

It's basically on the same level as saying "thank you" when someone says "I love you."

[Luis R. Ramos]

Veritec,

This is my reply to your post #26. Obviously I will not nit-pick and quote.

However everything "based on the military" that is really relevant to CAP's needs have already been incorporated into CAP. There is no need to try to reinvent the wheel which is what you did by asking your service friends.

[vorteks]

It's basically on the same level as saying "thank you" when someone says "I love you."

I see. Thanks.

However everything "based on the military" that is really relevant to CAP's needs have already been incorporated into CAP. There is no need to try to reinvent the wheel which is what you did by asking your service friends.

I wasn't trying to reinvent anything, I'm just trying to understand. The answer to my specific situation doesn't seem to exist in any CAP documentation, and it wasn't covered in any training I received so far. And while most of you came back with the same message (and I get it now), at least one indicated he would've done the same thing I did, and he was the only one who offered a reference.

Furthermore, this was not an incident between two CAP members; since the other party was a USAF airman, I don't see how my former service member friends' experience and opinions are not relevant. They absolutely are. Not to mention the fact that, as I look through these forums, very many of you are also current or former service members whose military experience often informs your take on things. I think that's completely valid.

[Eclipse]

This is another situation where the multi-form causes issues of confusion, and no one has taken the
effort to write simple sentences to clear things up.

CAPP 151 might infer saluting is primarily in military-style uniform, but CAPP 3 does not make that distinction.

It references "civilian clothing" but a CAP uniform is not, "civilian clothing" at least in a CAP context.

The nice thing is that we've been having these discussions for decades, and no one see fit to spend 30 minutes
and clear it up under the auspices of "This isn't our most important problem...".

No, it isn't.  It's just a simple, baseline issue whose ambiguity cause constant unnecessary confusion
and contributes to the unnecessary, far too loud background noise that contributes to the general malaise and
lack of member comfort.

[RiverAux]

Unfortunately, the new 151 is a little bit lacking on the finer points of C&C such as this issue, so you're probably not going to find an official CAP reference directly on this point, however as we are talking about customs the guidance given here that you always return a salute if you're in a CAP military-style uniform, should suffice.

[Eclipse]

And this:

"When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of what the officer is wearing."

[MIKE]

... I would try to avoid "Thank you." if at all possible...

That's interesting, and I'd still like to know where you're coming from on that one.

It's basically on the same level as saying "thank you" when someone says "I love you."

It comes across as pompous/entitled.  You're basically saying "Thank you" to the junior for acknowledging that you are senior.  "Thank you, Airman for your exercise of military courtesy."  If instead you treat the salute and acknowledgments of each other as a greeting much like you would a handshake you'll come across better... even if on its face that is what you both are doing.

[vorteks]

It comes across as pompous/entitled.  You're basically saying "Thank you" to the junior for acknowledging that you are senior.  "Thank you, Airman for your exercise of military courtesy."  If instead you treat the salute and acknowledgments of each other as a greeting much like you would a handshake you'll come across better... even if on its face that is what you both are doing.

Got it. (Although in this case I hope my tone and body language could only have conveyed humility.)

And this:

"When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of what the officer is wearing."

And in the same paragraph it goes on to conclude:

"In such instances, the commander typically would
verbally acknowledge the salute, but not return it."

Not quite the same situation, I know. But because of the uniform confusion you mentioned above, it's the thing that was on my mind at the time.

... however as we are talking about customs the guidance given here that you always return a salute if you're in a CAP military-style uniform, should suffice.

Works for me, and that's what I'll do going forward.

[vorteks]

... but a CAP uniform is not, "civilian clothing" at least in a CAP context.

Well, except for the polo:

"For senior members, the rendering of customs and courtesies
is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all uniform
combinations except the polo shirt and blazer"

That is... until you put on the new black fleece with your grade insignia. I guess. 

[Eclipse]

... but a CAP uniform is not, "civilian clothing" at least in a CAP context.

Well, except for the polo:

"For senior members, the rendering of customs and courtesies
is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all uniform
combinations except the polo shirt and blazer"

The golf shirt may not be considered a "salute-worthy" uniform, but it is also not
"civilian clothing" within a CAP context.

That is... until you put on the new black fleece with your grade insignia. I guess. 

More places things don't align.

[SarDragon]

it wouldn't be right for me to return a salute since I wasn't wearing a cover.

Where does this nonsense come from?

It comes from how people in the military and CAP were taught eons ago - no hat, no salute.

[Eclipse]

And eons ago is where it should stay.

[NIN]

It comes from how people in the military and CAP sea services were taught eons ago - no hat, no salute.

FTFY.  CAP and the Army (and I suppose the AF) have saluted indoors, sans chapeau, since at least 1981, and I suspect before that even.  Unlike the Navy & Marines, who do not.

[RiverAux]

So why is "Officers" in quotes in the Subject line of this thread.  We are CAP officers.  Quotations entirely unnecessary and more than a little insulting.

[Eclipse]

Good catch.

[NIN]

I had to drive to a customer today, so I took that hour each way to think about this.

I had several thoughts.

1) Salute. Darn it, its a greeting.  Not saluting in a uniformed service is like not saying hello, or, worse yet, ignoring someone saying hello.

If some solider/sailor/airman/Marine/puddle pirate takes the time to salute you, he/she is doing so to a) say "hello" in the common manner of the uniformed services; b) because they recognize *some kind* of grade insignia that looks like an officer. And they're trained to salute officers. With hats, without hats, whatever, doesn't matter.  I see bars/leaves/chickens/stars as a solider, I'm cranking a salute and a greeting of the day, whether that guy is in my uniform, another uniform or whatever.  (Heck, I saluted my battalion commander in civvies one day. He returned my salute and said "good morning!" No Sergeants Major appeared from behind q-huts to shout at me..)

2) Stop trying to explain "oh, you're not supposed to salute me." Just return the salute and drive on.  To enlisted folks, salutes are a part of the day. You trying to tell someone they're "not supposed to salute" the guy with captain's bars is like telling someone that the sun comes up in the west. It just ain't right.

Nobody thinks you're trolling for a salute when Airman Snuffy whips one out on you when you're least expecting it on the local Air Guard base.  Actually stopping someone and stammering thru an explanation of why they're not supposed to salute actually erodes our relationship with the rank-and-file, especially jr. enlisted.  This is what propagates this "DON'T SALUTE CIVIL AIR PATROL PEOPLE! THEY DON'T RATE A SALUTE! THEY'RE JUST LIKE BOY SCOUTS!" attitude. If you professionally return a salute, like any other officer would, you're a member of the team, not someone different.

3) NIN's Rule #14: "If it looks wrong, it is wrong."  Not returning a salute has the appearance of wrong to our brethren in blue.   I once has an AF officer say to me "You're a CAP guy? I didn't even realize that.." after an entire day at the local air guard base around him and another group of officers. This was before grey epaulets. Why? Because from > 25 feet away, as far as he could tell, I was "just another officer" and that was good enough for him.   (to be fair: for many years I have worn my blues in the customary way that AF officers wear their blues: nametag and badges only. No ribbons. I looked like *every other 1st Lt* from that distance, really..)

[Storm Chaser]

it wouldn't be right for me to return a salute since I wasn't wearing a cover.

Where does this nonsense come from?

It comes from how people in the military and CAP were taught eons ago - no hat, no salute.

I think you're confusing this with "no hat, no salute" areas, which is not the same thing. If you, as a CAP officer, or an Air Force General are wearing a mess dress, which doesn't require headgear, would you not salute him/her? How about the President or Secretary of Defense, both civilians who (normally) don't wear hats?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

In the gray/white aviator shirt I have been asked if I was Canadian on a few occassions.

I wonder why?  Canadians do not wear grey uniforms.  Their uniforms are largely derived from British design.

Canadian Army (with a Brigadier General in the foreground):


Royal Canadian Navy (officer in foreground, noncoms in background):


Royal Canadian Air Force (new 2014 redesign worn by Lieutenant-General Yvan Blondin):

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Veritec, if people in CAP would look to what the military does, you would go crazy!

CAP is not military.

Nonetheless...the regs as I learnt them, and as retrieved from Knowledgebase:

Rules for Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a greeting and a symbol of mutual respect. As such, it is never inappropriate to salute another individual. The basic rules regarding saluting for CAP members are:

(1) You salute when in military-style uniform.

(2) You salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to you.

(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you.

(4) You salute when outdoors unless:
(a) You are carrying articles (or a heavy object) in both hands, which cannot be transferred to the left hand, or another legitimate reason such as injury, and so forth. In this case, an oral greeting should be exchanged, such as "Good Morning, Sir or Ma'am." If you are the lower ranking individual and the one you are approaching is higher in rank but whose arms are incapacitated, you will still salute.
(b) You are in a designated "covered" or "no salute" area, (aircraft marshalling areas and flightlines are "no salute" areas).
(c) You are a member of a military formation or a work detail (only the senior member of the formation or detail salutes).
(d) You are attending a public gathering such as a sports event.

(5) When on a military installation, you salute officers in government cars if the car has a flag or metal standard that identifies the rank of the occupant (usually general officers and military wing or base commanders).

(6) Military personnel are not required to render a salute to CAP personnel, but they are not restricted from doing so if they desire.

I'm still a bit surprised the OP was saluted by an Airman...I couldn't tell you the last time I was, though other services do so.

It's nothing more than a greeting.

However, I still think it's a tad lopsided that we have to salute military personnel but it's optional for them to salute us...at best, it should be optional for both (and I'd still do it anyway).

It's a lot touchier (and simpler) in the CG AUX, because their regs require ALL members, regardless of insignia worn, to salute ALL military commissioned and warrant officers.  You can be wearing "admiral" type insignia in the CG AUX and you still have to salute the newest Ensign/2nd Lieutenant or Warrant Officer.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Cyborg,

No need to rehash what CAP has incorporated!

Why did you quote me? Is not what you re-posted what I said was incorporated in CAP?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Cyborg,

No need to rehash what CAP has incorporated!

Why did you quote me? Is not what you re-posted what I said was incorporated in CAP?

The reminder wasn't for you, sir...it was for those who may not have read the regs (more than you might think!) and take the "CAP is not military, so I'm not going to bother with all that folderol."

No offence intended.  Honestly.

[AlphaSigOU]

BTW, there is no law or military regulation requiring saluting Medal of Honor recipients. It is customary to salute them if they are wearing The Medal. Here's an article explaining the courtesy: http://www.stripes.com/blogs/the-rumor-doctor/the-rumor-doctor-1.104348/must-all-troops-salute-medal-of-honor-recipients-1.125849

[Майор Хаткевич]

Was saluted by some seamen when I was a cadet. Walking in single file, guy number 2 throws it up, then 4, 3 and 1 never did. Either they gave him crap after they got through the gate, or he gave them crap. I hope the latter. As a C/MSgt it scared me as much as it scared them probably. But returned it, and moved on.

[Eclipse]

I learned quickly to avoid making a wake through a wall of recruits walking around on the RTC wearing Lieutenant's (CAP Captain) bars.

I don't avoid going where I need to, but sometimes I'l cross the street if a division is coming, or a lot of unescorted recruits are ahead.
POs and Chiefs are always polite and generally salute.

Have been told more then once, and told it here more then once - the last thing you do is start teaching recruits to "filter salutes",
especially on a base that houses foreign military.

The next thing you know that recruit is in a world of hurt because they made a bad judgement call.

It seems like the only issue CAP generally has are with new enlisted, and really, is there anything an E2 doesn't have an issue with?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Barracks lawyering?

[Storm Chaser]

We salute commissioned officers when in a military-style uniform because we ARE the Air Force Auxiliary. Military officers are not required to salute CAP officers because we are NOT commissioned officers.

[Eclipse]

Barracks lawyering?

More like barracks whining.

Take a 19 year old, make him walk straight and listen to literally everyone around him 24x7x265, then
one day he finds out that someone, anyone (i.e. CAP) who represents an authority figure (i.e. officers)
can be ignored with no peril.

How do you think the conversation goes from there?

[RRLE]

It's a lot touchier (and simpler) in the CG AUX, because their regs require ALL members, regardless of insignia worn, to salute ALL military commissioned and warrant officers.  You can be wearing "admiral" type insignia in the CG AUX and you still have to salute the newest Ensign/2nd Lieutenant or Warrant Officer.

The USCGAux "admirals" carry the title of Commodore - just for the sake of those who don't know. Several years back the Aux asked the USCG to change the title to Admiral and the USCG refused.

The Aux rule for saluting each other is - don't do it. The actual wording: "Saluting is not required between Auxiliarists nor is it usually the
custom of greeting between them."

Auxies have been called to account when in a public setting they salute each other. Some local units have instituted it from time to time but when the upper echelons hear about it they usually put an end to it. Instituting it, even locally, is considered to be making mandatory what the Auxiliary Manual explicitly states in not required and not an Aux custom. The only known somewhat regular saluting between Auxies is, for some unknown reason, a few years ago, the outgoing National Commodore (NACO) saluted the incoming one at the Change of Watch. I think it has been done ever since.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Have been told more then once, and told it here more then once - the last thing you do is start teaching recruits to "filter salutes",
especially on a base that houses foreign military.

A former wing CC I knew quite well, who spent a lot of time at Maxwell, said there were frequently foreign military personnel there for various schools, and he often "wore his arm off saluting" because he didn't recognise a lot of their ranks.  British, Canadian, Aussie, NZ etc. he didn't have much problem with because they're so similar, but he said that with West Germans, French, Belgians, Dutch, Japanese etc. he often had no idea.  He said "I may have been saluting Corporals but at least I was showing proper etiquette."

The USCGAux "admirals" carry the title of Commodore - just for the sake of those who don't know. Several years back the Aux asked the USCG to change the title to Admiral and the USCG refused.

I think I remember that WIWAAuxie.

The Aux rule for saluting each other is - don't do it. The actual wording: "Saluting is not required between Auxiliarists nor is it usually the
custom of greeting between them."

The wording is slightly different to what I remember - I think it was something like "Saluting is not normal between Auxiliarists;" in either case it says (to me) "you don't have to and we don't encourage it" rather than "don't do it."

Auxies have been called to account when in a public setting they salute each other. Some local units have instituted it from time to time but when the upper echelons hear about it they usually put an end to it. Instituting it, even locally, is considered to be making mandatory what the Auxiliary Manual explicitly states in not required and not an Aux custom.

I never knew of any flotilla that tried to make it mandatory, simply because, as you pointed out, it is against CG and AUX regs.  However, some Auxies I knew did it strictly informally in certain circumstances; i.e., when receiving an award.

The only known somewhat regular saluting between Auxies is, for some unknown reason, a few years ago, the outgoing National Commodore (NACO) saluted the incoming one at the Change of Watch. I think it has been done ever since.

It was done at CoW on more local levels too (I saw it) and it must have been all right with the CG, because there were usually CG officers and PO's/CPO's there and they said nothing to my knowledge.

I got saluted a few times, addressed as "Ensign" (FSO) or "Lieutenant" (VFC), by military people, just returned it and went on my way.  I knew of some Auxies who were so zealously against any kind of saluting that they wanted to force a reg that would require Auxies to stop and explain to the military member that we did not merit a salute and why.  Just another way to confuse the hell out of people (as if the plethora of Aux office abbreviations isn't enough!) as far as I was concerned.

[arajca]

We salute commissioned officers senior in rank to you when in a military-style uniform because we ARE the Air Force Auxiliary. Military officers are not required to salute CAP officers because we are NOT commissioned officers.

FTFY

[RRLE]

The wording is slightly different to what I remember - I think it was something like "Saluting is not normal between Auxiliarists;" in either case it says (to me) "you don't have to and we don't encourage it" rather than "don't do it."

The cite I provided is right out of the current AuxMan. The wording of the rule has changed over the years and even which manual it was in. It only made the Auxiliary Manual two or three revisions back. Prior to that it was buried in the Courtesy Manual. A slightly out-of-date wording of the reg appears on the Aux KnowledgeBase.

I never knew of any flotilla that tried to make it mandatory, simply because, as you pointed out, it is against CG and AUX regs.  However, some Auxies I knew did it strictly informally in certain circumstances; i.e., when receiving an award.

It hasn't happened in a while but on the Aux boards (not pretty much just 1) a member would pop up every now and then and state his flotilla had begun saluting. There was one rather famous individual who was big proponent of Auxie saluting. He had been warned never to do it outside his flotilla. He ran a color guard at a higher level function and saluted them at the end of their performance. He was immediately and very publicly reprimanded by the higher officer. He self-reported that incident on an Aux board.

It was done at CoW on more local levels too (I saw it) and it must have been all right with the CG, because there were usually CG officers and PO's/CPO's there and they said nothing to my knowledge.

I wouldn't put much faith in USCG officers knowing Auxie rules and regs. There was an issue a few years ago when a USCG officer, an admiral I believe, had words with a District Director of Auxiliary (DirAux) because Auxies, in uniform at an Auxie District Conference, did not salute during the pledge or National Anthem. The DirAux posted that Auxies should salute and this was endorsed by the Chief DirAux. That made it to an Aux board where the actual citation from the AuxMan was provided that stated the Auxie were correct to not salute but to put their hand over their heart. That forced a retraction from the ChDirAux and DirAux. I think that rule has since been modified.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Really, this is kind of moot anyway because I hardly ever see, except for cadets, saluting within CAP any more.

[Storm Chaser]

According to CAPP 151, all CAP members in a military-style uniform (all uniform combination except the polo shirt and blazer) must render the proper customs and courtesies to include saluting when appropriate.

[Private Investigator]

In the gray/white aviator shirt I have been asked if I was Canadian on a few occassions.

I wonder why?  Canadians do not wear grey uniforms.  Their uniforms are largely derived from British design.

Most E-2s on active duty have no ideal what you are talking about. If it is not something that someone in their chain of command is wearing, it is foreign. Civil Air Patrol? How often do you have a E-3 on active duty tell you he was a CAP Cadet? 

[Private Investigator]

Was saluted by some seamen when I was a cadet. Walking in single file, guy number 2 throws it up, then 4, 3 and 1 never did. Either they gave him crap after they got through the gate, or he gave them crap. I hope the latter. As a C/MSgt it scared me as much as it scared them probably. But returned it, and moved on.

The rack of ribbons that a CAP C/MSgt has is impressive so I am sure the seaman did not look farther for rank and saluted. 

[DoubleSecret]

Was saluted by some seamen when I was a cadet. Walking in single file, guy number 2 throws it up, then 4, 3 and 1 never did. Either they gave him crap after they got through the gate, or he gave them crap. I hope the latter. As a C/MSgt it scared me as much as it scared them probably. But returned it, and moved on.

The rack of ribbons that a CAP C/MSgt has is impressive so I am sure the seaman did not look farther for rank and saluted. 

I've seen C/MSgts who out-ribboned USAF MSgts, so yeah.  OTOH, the latter is a nicer thing to be on payday.

[lordmonar]

Was saluted by some seamen when I was a cadet. Walking in single file, guy number 2 throws it up, then 4, 3 and 1 never did. Either they gave him crap after they got through the gate, or he gave them crap. I hope the latter. As a C/MSgt it scared me as much as it scared them probably. But returned it, and moved on.

The rack of ribbons that a CAP C/MSgt has is impressive so I am sure the seaman did not look farther for rank and saluted. 

the seam probably saw the shiny on the hat and used the old saw...."when in doubt, whip it out".

No need to start lamenting on the size of our racks again.

[Fubar]

No need to start lamenting on the size of our racks again.

Is it wrong that I giggled?

[Flying Pig]

Funny story about cadets and ribbons.....  Lewis Millett lived in my home town.  It was pretty common to see him running around.   We did a color guard ceremony once where he was the guest speaker.  At the end, the cadets were just standing around in a circle with him and other people at the event and one of our color guard members says, "Hey Colonel, Im only a C/Capt and I have almost as many ribbons as you do."  (Yes... he was a C/Capt on color guard...I know)

Col Millett just chuckled and said "Yes you do son, yes you do."  The rest of us were trying to find a potted plant to hide behind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Millett

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

According to CAPP 151, all CAP members in a military-style uniform (all uniform combination except the polo shirt and blazer) must render the proper customs and courtesies to include saluting when appropriate.

I know that.

You know that.

I hold to it.

You no doubt do.

However, I don't see a lot of it in CAP now, compared to when I first joined.

[Private Investigator]

No need to start lamenting on the size of our racks again.

Is it wrong that I giggled?

I am guessing we are both guilty! That is why Starbucks asked me to leave, again   

[Private Investigator]

Funny story about cadets and ribbons.....  Lewis Millett lived in my home town.  It was pretty common to see him running around.   We did a color guard ceremony once where he was the guest speaker.  At the end, the cadets were just standing around in a circle with him and other people at the event and one of our color guard members says, "Hey Colonel, Im only a C/Capt and I have almost as many ribbons as you do."  (Yes... he was a C/Capt on color guard...I know)

Col Millett just chuckled and said "Yes you do son, yes you do."  The rest of us were trying to find a potted plant to hide behind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Millett

Colonel Millett a true member of the greatest generation. Thank you for sharing.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Funny story about cadets and ribbons.....  Lewis Millett lived in my home town.  It was pretty common to see him running around.   We did a color guard ceremony once where he was the guest speaker.  At the end, the cadets were just standing around in a circle with him and other people at the event and one of our color guard members says, "Hey Colonel, Im only a C/Capt and I have almost as many ribbons as you do."  (Yes... he was a C/Capt on color guard...I know)

Col Millett just chuckled and said "Yes you do son, yes you do."  The rest of us were trying to find a potted plant to hide behind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Millett

Colonel Millett a true member of the greatest generation. Thank you for sharing.

Quite an intrepid man!  Deserts and joins the Canadian Army because he wasn't getting his chance to fight, then is readmitted to the U.S. Army, progresses through enlisted and officer ranks to become a Colonel and a whole lotta chest candy (and not fog-a-mirror ribbons either, to say nothing of his MOH).

I looked closely at his ribbon rack.  I'm guessing the bottom ones are Vietnam service medals (the green/white one in the centre is the Vietnam Campaign Medal, but I don't know what the other two are).  The two to the left on his second-to-bottom row are British Commonwealth medals, the red-white-blue striped one being the British 1939-45 War Medal and the green/blue/red one immediately to the left is the Canadian Volunteer Service Medal.

I see an Air Medal with second award...was the Colonel aircrew in addition to his other accomplishments, or does being a Paratrooper qualify for the Air Medal?

[Flying Pig]

Im not sure why he had an air medal.  It may be different now, but back "in the day" I don't think you needed to be assigned as aircrew.  You just needed to be in an aircraft when the act happens.  Given his history, who knows how many weird stand in type assignments he had just because they needed a body to man a gun or something.  From what Ive read, he spent his entire career pretty much as a grunt and later intel.  I know a lot of intel officers flew in Vietnam.  That I know from talking to our very own Bosshawk... former intel officer/pilot.  Talk about split personalities
 

[Garibaldi]

I believe Air Medals can be awarded after so many hours in the air doing combat assaults, aircrew or troops. Is that right?

[SARDOC]

I believe Air Medals can be awarded after so many hours in the air doing combat assaults, aircrew or troops. Is that right?

Air Medals can be awarded for completing either so many flight hours or a few months operating in an aviation billet in a Combat Zone.  I have a friend who is a Navy Aircrewman logged so much flight time in Iraq and participated in a few "strikes" that he actually has Thirteen Air Medals.  In the Order of precendence the Air Medal is primarily the aviation version of the Bronze Star.  You just need to have sustained Meritorious performance without ever actually seeing combat in a combat zone to earn both of them. 

I used to see Marines and Sailors with Bronze Stars without a Combat Action Ribbon and look at them very suspiciously until I found out that a Supply Officer in Afghanistan Earned the Bronze Star because of his meritorious performance shuffling paper.  It was very important paper shuffling but I digress.

[ZigZag911]

I used to see Marines and Sailors with Bronze Stars without a Combat Action Ribbon and look at them very suspiciously until I found out that a Supply Officer in Afghanistan Earned the Bronze Star because of his meritorious performance shuffling paper.  It was very important paper shuffling but I digress.

Let's just keep in mind that the supply officer in question, unlike most paper shufflers here at home, was serving at great personal risk just being there...not the same level of danger as combat troops, but not exactly out of the line of fire, given the nature of the conflict.

[lordmonar]

I believe Air Medals can be awarded after so many hours in the air doing combat assaults, aircrew or troops. Is that right?

Air Medals can be awarded for completing either so many flight hours or a few months operating in an aviation billet in a Combat Zone.  I have a friend who is a Navy Aircrewman logged so much flight time in Iraq and participated in a few "strikes" that he actually has Thirteen Air Medals.  In the Order of precendence the Air Medal is primarily the aviation version of the Bronze Star.  You just need to have sustained Meritorious performance without ever actually seeing combat in a combat zone to earn both of them. 

I used to see Marines and Sailors with Bronze Stars without a Combat Action Ribbon and look at them very suspiciously until I found out that a Supply Officer in Afghanistan Earned the Bronze Star because of his meritorious performance shuffling paper.  It was very important paper shuffling but I digress.

It is because you don't know what a Bronze Star is really for.   
And for the record.....a Bronze Star is actually a Air Medal for ground troops.    Hap Arnold instituted the Air Medal during WWII and the ground troops wanted something of the same caliber for them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Star_Medal#History

It is NOT a combat medal.  It does not require any actual contact with the enemy....."distinguishes, or has distinguished, herself or himself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight—"

[PA Guy]

Unless it has a "V" device.

[lordmonar]

Unless it has a "V" device.

That would require Valor...which may or may not require getting shot at.....directly.   Run into a burning tent to pull out a trapped buddy in a combat zone.......that's valor...but not "combat" valor.

Bottom line is .......dispite what most people think the Bronze Star is all about......they are mostly wrong.
Sure a lot of guys got it for winning the war with bravery and resolve.  But a lot of guys got it for doing their jobs in a distinguished way while conducting military operations in a combat zone.

That includes doing finance paperwork, running the base laundry, chow hall, rec center.......as well as running patrols, and other outside of the wire sort of things.

[PHall]

I've seen people get it for doing a job that never required them to go outside the wire.
But they were on a base that regularly got rocketed...

[Luis R. Ramos]

Hey, paper shufflers are important!

In combat you may not get ammo or enough of it without a paper shuffler records on how many of you are there!

You may not get paid, and you may not get a ribbon if it was not on paper that you did XYZ.

[PHall]

Hey, paper shufflers are important!

In combat you may not get ammo or enough of it without a paper shuffler records on how many of you are there!

You may not get paid, and you may not get a ribbon if it was not on paper that you did XYZ.

They don't do squat on paper any more.  It's digital or it didn't happen!

[Luis R. Ramos]

I know, I guess I should have stated instead...

The more batteries safeguarded for the electronics, the better.

If not on the computer, like PH said, no one gets what they need.

So those paper shufflers, better be on their act.

The paper cuts they get happen when they are uncoiling their computer cables and there is a very tight Velcro cable keeper...

[JC004]

*siiiigh*