USAF holds a bird Colonel to the standard...

[sarmed1]

Ironic:  We were told over the weekend quoting two differant sources (but no where in writting) that the girth measurement will be going away sometime in the near future....

mk

[Nuke52]

Good on him for setting the example, but let's not make too big a deal of this.

He's got his 25 in, and probably was planning on retiring anyway, so didn't care much about making the measure.

+1 I will be more impressed when the USAF starts kicking out 10 year Pilots.

-1
Kicking out 10-year pilots with all that expensive training and even-more-valuable experience (especially when even the bonus isn't stopping them from leaving in droves) doesn't sound like a very good return on our investment of tax dollars to me...  And all for an "arbitrary" number on a tape measure??  Maybe instead--if that number really is so important--we put the offenders on a mandatory big-boy-waist-reducing program.

Simply throwing these guys out and training new ones isn't so easy or cost effective. Know how long it takes to grow a 10-year replacement pilot (wrench turner, personnelist, med tech)?  Ten years--plus all that expense. And maybe you've heard:  money's a little tight right now...

It might help to look past your pilot bias and see the bigger picture.

[Nuke52]

^ The article said he "requested" retirement, so it's at least possible they were going to let him do that, just not be in command.

Agreed. I wasn't privy to the specifics of this case, but based on the cases I have seen, they'd have probably PCS'd him to Scott to serve out his time until he was ready to retire.

[Nuke52]

Honestly almost sounds like an internal AF PR stunt to "scare" folks into shape.

I suppose that's not entirely impossible, but I severely doubt it. This isn't just some AF Crimes story trying to push AF propaganda, this is a real person who's filled some (very) real-deal jobs and was absolutely on his way to bigger and better within DoD.

They save the contrived, "let this be a warning to you" stories for much lower-ranking/"less-important" people.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

Did not happen to me (I was 5'9 & 150lb at retirement) but my ex Son-in-law (ken).  Ken was USAF and had a weight problem but had lots of guidance and help.  The Air Force (at least his units) did almost everything they could to help him.  Counselling by the Chain of Command & the medical folks, extra PT Training, time off for individual PT on his own.  His 1SG and Commander even arranged for my duaghter to receive help in meal planning and ways to help him shed the excess poundage at home.  However at the end of the day he was still just outside the allowable range and was denied reenlistment.  Still I can't help but be impressed at the efforts his command went thru to try and 'save' him.
(but maybe it was 'all in the stars'.  Two ARMY Brats marry, he joins the AIR FORCE, and ends up being a Boat Engineer on a NAVY base).

[The Infamous Meerkat]

It simply has to be a publicity stunt, "Hey, we'll either make you look like a gracious and upstanding leader that retires with honor, or we'll kick you out unceremoniously with the minimum benefits we can give you... your choice."   

Which one would you pick?

And sorry Eclipse, but 'arbitrary' has no meaning in the military, they have the numbers on a towering pedestal it would seem... They kick out enlisted guys like it's cool, and while those enlisted guys are still in they're considered to be the biggest scheissbirds of all. They would rather have tiny, frail-looking guys than the giant ripped bodybuilders who could literally tear a man in half, no matter how much better the big guy can do his job. It's actually sort of sad...

I knew plenty of really good techs that got booted for that... and they kept some of the biggest idiots on the planet simply because they could make tape and pass the bare minimum on their PFT.

[lordmonar]

Good on him for setting the example, but let's not make too big a deal of this.

He's got his 25 in, and probably was planning on retiring anyway, so didn't care much about making the measure.

+1 I will be more impressed when the USAF starts kicking out 10 year Pilots.

-1
Kicking out 10-year pilots with all that expensive training and even-more-valuable experience (especially when even the bonus isn't stopping them from leaving in droves) doesn't sound like a very good return on our investment of tax dollars to me...

That is my point.    If the USAF was really sending a message.....kicking out and hold accountable people they really need, have really invested a lot of money would have impressed me more then kicking out a 25 year retirement eleigible Col.   

And all for an "arbitrary" number on a tape measure??  Maybe instead--if that number really is so important--we put the offenders on a mandatory big-boy-waist-reducing program.

Simply throwing these guys out and training new ones isn't so easy or cost effective. Know how long it takes to grow a 10-year replacement pilot (wrench turner, personnelist, med tech)?  Ten years--plus all that expense. And maybe you've heard:  money's a little tight right now...

It might help to look past your pilot bias and see the bigger picture.

Right to the pilot bias  .....I see the bigger picture.....like I said.....If the USAF was really interested in making a "we are really serious about this" they would hold those who "they have invested a lot in" to the same standard they are holding the airman.  YMMV.

[Pylon]

Or perhaps it more of an indication that the Air Force should review their standard.  The Colonel specifically stated that he passed every portion of his physical fitness test except the waist measurement.   

What does a waist measurement tell us about an individual?  Nothing useful, in my opinion.  It puts too much of an emphasis on being physically skinny rather than any measurement of physical fitness, ability, strength, endurance, or any other characteristic which ought to matter far, far more.  A servicemember with a smaller waist than another does not imply the skinnier one is better at or more capable of doing anything whatsoever.

[abdsp51]

It is all in the scoring if you fail any componet in the test you fail the test irregardless of your score. 

[Nuke52]

Good on him for setting the example, but let's not make too big a deal of this.

He's got his 25 in, and probably was planning on retiring anyway, so didn't care much about making the measure.

+1 I will be more impressed when the USAF starts kicking out 10 year Pilots.

-1
Kicking out 10-year pilots with all that expensive training and even-more-valuable experience (especially when even the bonus isn't stopping them from leaving in droves) doesn't sound like a very good return on our investment of tax dollars to me...

That is my point.    If the USAF was really sending a message.....kicking out and hold accountable people they really need, have really invested a lot of money would have impressed me more then kicking out a 25 year retirement eleigible Col.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you're saying, but why would you possibly be impressed by such a stupid and short-sighted decision as kicking out people they really need and have invested so much money into?  It just doesn't compute to me--unless you're being sarcastic and I'm just not picking up on it, to be "impressed" by stupidity just doesn't make sense.  I am astounded by the number of Americans who waste their time watching reality TV, but I'm not the least bit impressed by it...

[HGjunkie]

The whole message I'm getting from this thread is that Wing Commanders are easily replaceable, while Pilots aren't. Hm... and I want to be a pilot.

[Nuke52]

Or perhaps it more of an indication that the Air Force should review their standard.  The Colonel specifically stated that he passed every portion of his physical fitness test except the waist measurement.   

What does a waist measurement tell us about an individual?  Nothing useful, in my opinion.  It puts too much of an emphasis on being physically skinny rather than any measurement of physical fitness, ability, strength, endurance, or any other characteristic which ought to matter far, far more.  A servicemember with a smaller waist than another does not imply the skinnier one is better at or more capable of doing anything whatsoever.

Shack. 

(Although, 41 inches is pretty gross for an AD military member.  Forty-one inches means he's a pretty big boy, and he didn't exactly look like Joe Weider, either...)

But for the more important issue, the waist measurement is a crock--especially since the grading scale makes absolutely no accomodation for height or musculature.  A 6'6" bodybuilder is held to the same waist-measurement standard as a 4'9" mini-airman.  Whom would you rather have trying to pull you into the back of the Jolly Green?

So why'd they do it?  AF bean counters (and I do intend that perjoritively; the only people worse in my book are the AF shoe clerks) figured out that in the population as a whole, abdominal circumference and long-term healthcare costs vary directly (i.e., bigger waists = more money spent on health problems, especially later in life), soooo, they figured they can cut the AF's costs over time by incentivizing being thin and throwing out--before they retire--people who are not.  (Oh, and I think a GO looking for a post-retirement job steered some money into the pockets of our friends at RAND for their concurrence, too.)

Genius!  Right?  Not so much.  Leave it to the AF to "force shape" (pun intended) by way of the force's shape...

[Nuke52]

The whole message I'm getting from this thread is that Wing Commanders are easily replaceable, while Pilots aren't. Hm... and I want to be a pilot.

"Dad, when I grow up, I want to be a pilot."
"I'm sorry, son, but you can't do both."   

Don't be discouraged by nonsense--fly, fight, win!   

[ol'fido]

I'm not saying anything about the merits of either case and I don't know the back story on either case, but it's an interesting juxtaposition of the story of two officers within a couple of weeks of each other. Heard a lot about this in the St. Louis Post...

http://www.stripes.com/news/air-force-pilot-s-sex-assault-dismissal-sparks-cries-for-reform-1.210371

[Private Investigator]

I'm not saying anything about the merits of either case and I don't know the back story on either case, but it's an interesting juxtaposition of the story of two officers within a couple of weeks of each other. Heard a lot about this in the St. Louis Post...

http://www.stripes.com/news/air-force-pilot-s-sex-assault-dismissal-sparks-cries-for-reform-1.210371

Now there is a Lt Col & pilot dirtbag who should be kicked out. JMHO, YMMV 

[Private Investigator]

Here's what I copild find:

By law, Regular Officers promoted to lieutenant colonel (O-5) may serve for 28 active commissioned years

A HS classmate of mine had to retire at the 20 year mark as a USMC Lt Col since he was not going to make Col. Just like the Captains & Lieutenants (O-3) that have to leave at the 10 year mark if they are not promotable.

I thought the commissioned officers had something similar to the enlisted HYT.

[SarDragon]

Here's what I could find:

By law, Regular Officers promoted to lieutenant colonel (O-5) may serve for 28 active commissioned years.

A HS classmate of mine had to retire at the 20 year mark as a USMC Lt Col since he was not going to make Col. Just like the Captains & Lieutenants (O-3) that have to leave at the 10 year mark if they are not promotable.

I thought the commissioned officers had something similar to the enlisted HYT.

The rules have changed over the years. If your friend was a Reserve Officer, then he may have been under the 20 year rule.

In the olde system had only the ring knockers getting Regular Officer commissions, and all other acquisitions (ROTC and OCS/OTS) coming in as Reserve Officers. The new rule is to make all new commissions as Reserve Officers, who then "compete" later during their careers for appointments as Regular Officers.

As for "up or out", it is a little different for officers. They can basically promote, no matter how slowly, and stick around until they are passed over twice, forcing retirement, or retire at will when the billet quality declines, or hit a HYT point. Most officers seem to leave under the first two sets of circumstances.

Here's the article.

[Private Investigator]

Thanks that was good reading.   :clap:

[J2H]

I was discharged early (DOS Rollback) due to multiple PT failures (4 in 24 mos)... the AF would rather kick out the experienced NCOs who may have run issues than retain them over hiring new blood... but that's above my paygrade.... did my 10 and got my honorable discharge and 12,000 dollar separation paycheck ;-)

[Devil Doc]

No Seperation Check when i got out, What a Crock. lol