So are we Airmen?

[NCRblues]

If CAP is the only military you've ever done...then, strutting around in our berets, BDUs, and carrying 72-hour packs while picking up trash at airshows = poser.

And I'm proud to be one.

The majority of our members are cry-baby homeschoolers who can't get from under mummy's skirt long enough to get mud on their boots.  Too many don't wear the uniform the way we're supposed to and almost none of us get near an airplane.  Airmen?  Hah!

Palafox

I guess by your standards the AF can no longer call cops, medics, medical office personnel, comms, admin, finance, command and control personnel, dental medical personnel (the list can go on if you need me to) "airman" anymore. They (generally) do not get "their boots muddy" and most don't even come near an aircraft most of their time in service.

You should type up a letter to the AF and explain why they are wrong.
  (sarcasim disclamer)

[RogueLeader]

If CAP is the only military you've ever done...then, strutting around in our berets, BDUs, and carrying 72-hour packs while picking up trash at airshows = poser.

And I'm proud to be one.

The majority of our members are cry-baby homeschoolers who can't get from under mummy's skirt long enough to get mud on their boots.  Too many don't wear the uniform the way we're supposed to and almost none of us get near an airplane.  Airmen?  Hah!

Palafox

While that is certainly your opinion, and maybe your experience;  it is not of mine in over 7 years, 3 regions and 4 wings. Such a comment is inflamatory and disrespecting all the things that we do. If there are people that don't wear the uniforms correctly, their command needs to fix it.

[a2capt]

Kinda makes you wonder why the Cobb County Composite Squadron web site's forum has a broken profile for Lt. Palafox ...

[Major Carrales]

To quote Ben Whitledge (No Time For Sergeants), Airman sounds like "something out of a danged funny book."

Don Knots was not Ben Whitledge, he was the poor guy giving the manual dexterity test that Stockdale "did totally wrong."  Unless you are talking about something other than the Warner Bros. Movie...there was a TV show, Theater Show and Television Special I am less familiar with.  lol

[SarDragon]

The quote is correct, according to IMDb: "Benjamin B. Whitledge:   Air man! Like somethin' out of a dang funny book! Air man! How you gonna like it when somebody calls you "Air man"?"

The picture, in a manner of speaking, is not, since it shows Knots as Cpl. [sic] Brown.

[paladin82]

To quote Ben Whitledge (No Time For Sergeants), Airman sounds like "something out of a danged funny book."

Don Knots was not Ben Whitledge, he was the poor guy giving the manual dexterity test that Stockdale "did totally wrong."  Unless you are talking about something other than the Warner Bros. Movie...there was a TV show, Theater Show and Television Special I am less familiar with.  lol

Yes, I know.  Don Knotts was referred to as a 'corporal,' which I thought odd.  I just liked his picture better than Nick Adams'.

[SarDragon]

The author was in the AAF during WWII, so he used the rank structure of the time.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The majority of our members are cry-baby homeschoolers who can't get from under mummy's skirt long enough to get mud on their boots.  Too many don't wear the uniform the way we're supposed to and almost none of us get near an airplane.  Airmen?  Hah!

Palafox

That's quite a sweeping generalisation (and a logical fallacy).

I went to public grade school, junior high school, high school and college.  Some of our cadets are homeschooled, including our cadet commander, and they are among our best and brightest.

I was in the ANG but unfortunately had to get out because of medical issues.

CAP is my way of continuing my service.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The author was in the AAF during WWII, so he used the rank structure of the time.

The AF very briefly had two-stripe Corporals in the early days.

[SarDragon]

According to a Wikipedia article, 'briefly' lasted from 1947 to 1952. Mac Hyman wrote the book between 1947 and 1954. It al fits.l

[a2capt]

That's quite a sweeping generalisation (and a logical fallacy).

Incase you have not figured it out, that poster, is banned, is probably a member non-gratis at a unit in Georgia, and having (had) a tantrum about it on the forum here. A quick view of their broken profile on said unit's web site shows them listed as the same age as another poster questioned them to be, and they're probably acting out their own problem here. Since the unit of affiliation entered on the CT "unit" box then changed to a FLWG unit, from a GAWG unit shortly after the original post, but they didn't actually edit their post, probably because mere mortals here can't edit previous posts anymore, once another is posted, or a certain amount of time passes. Whichever I have not figured out. I generally hate editing posts anyway.


As for Airmen, until the Air Force wraps us up in that terminology, I don't see it happening and am probably not going to contribute to it.

[twofivexray]

If I am not an Airman, am I permitted then to read a NOTAM?

[RADIOMAN015]

The USAF definition of "Airman" is inclusive, not exclusive.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/airman

If the CAP National Commander chose to make a policy stating that "Airman" was an appropriate term for Cadets, Sponsor Members, Officers, NCOs, Flight Officers, Aircrew, Ground Teams, Mission Base Staff, etc, that's also inclusive, not exclusive.

No single policy decision in this regard changes the fact that the term is larger in scope than any single organization.

We can be Airman if we want to be. My 2 cents.

I think it's important to look at the entire context that "airman" is being used in.   Specifically as it relates tp the doctrine being employed
http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFDD1.pdf mentions active, reserve/guard forces being employed by this doctrine, but remains silent about any AF Auxiliary(ies) utilization.

Perhaps, the correct approach would be, to ask through channels  how does CAP & AF MARS fit into this doctrine (military doctrine is the concise expression of how military forces contribute to campaigns, major operations, battles, and engagements), and should the auxiliaries be included for the support they can legally provide???

I don't think we need the CIVIL Air Patrol Commander, making this unilateral definition determination because some 'wanna bees' in the organization need more stroking of their big egos while playing military dress up. :angel:  CAP as an organization has gotten into problems in the past due to these type of uncoordinated/unapproved ego building actions
RM   

[PHall]

RM, how is it that you're a PAO? You seem to have nothing but complete contempt and loathing for your fellow CAP members.
I figure you wouldn't want to do anything good for the organization since it would help all of the wannabees you keep harping about.

[RADIOMAN015]

RM, how is it that you're a PAO? You seem to have nothing but complete contempt and loathing for your fellow CAP members.
I figure you wouldn't want to do astranything good for the organization since it would help all of the wannabees you keep harping about.

I have NEVER seen such a volunteer organization such as CAP, where some of the membership needs constant ego stroking and AF validation of what they (we) do as an organization.    Also Just looking at CAPTALK, and the number of message postings just dealing with uniforms one would come away thinking that basically that seems to be the biggest thing in the organization.  Another big posting is that the AF doesn't like us -- that is very strange comments .    So now this doctrine thing comes up on "Airmen" as determined by the Chief of Staff USAF, and some in CAP are thinking (without proper authorization) that they can ride this coat tail

As the PAO, I've been fortunate to get good external media coverage. I think I'm meeting what needs to be done to give our squadron a reasonable public awareness/presence.
RM 
     

[lordmonar]

One wonders how you sleep at night.....balancing your duty as a PAO to support and futher the aims of the organisation that you show so much contempt for with our personal convictions.

Two points:
1) CAPTALK is not CAP.  That is...we are probably not a representititve cross section of CAP as a whole.
2) As you keep pointing out....we are a volunteer civil organisation and ego stroking AF validation is one of the things that brings those volunteers to the organisation.

[RADIOMAN015]

Comments in CIVIL Air Patrol red:

One wonders how you sleep at night.....balancing your duty as a PAO to support and futher the aims of the organisation that you show so much contempt for with our personal convictions.

I sleep fine at night.  My "high" is when the press covers our events or my news releases (I might add without any reference to me) is published by the local media).  I have no personal contempt for anyones' conviction.  However, one has to be realistic as to what Civil Air Patrol really is and what the Air Force via its' implementation regulation(s) says we are and our defined relationship with them

Two points:
1) CAPTALK is not CAP.  That is...we are probably not a representititve cross section of CAP as a whole.

There's a lot more people that review what is said on this board than are members.  Wouldn't be too surprised if a fair number of personnel from HQ CAP-USAF, including state directors read the comments here.   

2) As you keep pointing out....we are a volunteer civil organisation and ego stroking AF validation is one of the things that brings those volunteers to the organisation.

Hmm, isn't "service above self" one of guiding principles   I think a Mr. Google CAP news search over the last year or so, will likely identify some of the egotistical personnel we have in the organization versus those that quietly get the various missions done.  I think from an external public relations standpoint it's more important to highlight organizational achievements versus CAP member personal achievements.  Granted exceptions are the highest awards in the cadet & senior member programs, (as well as outstanding awards for cadets & seniors) and certain major position changes (e.g. squadron commander).     
   

So back to the orginal post, are we "Airman" as defined by the USAF Chief of Staff   NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   
RM

[jimmydeanno]

I'm not anti-CAP, and I don't think that RADIOMAN is either.  I've stated in other threads that I think many of our members are in CAP for the wrong reason, and many of the topics we have here represent that.  A lot of the discussions often revolve around what CAP is giving to its members, instead of what our members are giving to CAP, or could be giving to CAP.  There is a lot of discussion about how CAP won't let someone do this, or won't let them do that, or "I'll quit if we aren't the AF Aux anymore".  It's all very selfish, which is directly opposite to our core value of Volunteer Service.

I think that RADIOMAN is largely in favor of what our missions are and how we do them.  You can be a hugely successful PAO writing about our successful missions and the great things we do.  However, all the advantages of those good press releases and news coverage go away when our members allow their egos to get in the way, and we become an organization of people who "wish we were in the Air Force."

I don't necessarily agree with everything you write RADIOMAN, but I can certainly see your overwhelming theme in your posts.  Our members should focus on doing our missions and be proud of our association, however, we should still keep the perspective that we are a civilian auxiliary, not a reserve component.

[lordmonar]

I don't really care why someone is in CAP.......I only care what they do for CAP while in it.

Of course we  have all seen people who for one reason or another their personal desires have gotten in the way of getting the mission done. 

Since RM brought it up....lets review our core values.

1) Intgrity First
2) Excellence in all we do
3) Volunteer Service
4) Respect

Now let's look at what the idea of using the term "airman" to apply to everyone in the USAF and how it applies to CAP.

The point of the AFPD....is that we are all one team.  Active, Reserve, guard, civil service employees and government contractors.  Now that CAP and the other auxillary did not get a mention in the AFPD is not because the USAF does not consider us part of the team......I think it is just that they don't think about us all that much.   But I can tell you that those parts of the USAF that work directly with CAP most certainly think that we are in fact part of the team.

I guess I am just lucky to be able to work closely with the USAF.....

Does that mean I think we all need to start using "airman" in our communications when we mean "CAP member"?  No......when I was on AD we usually did not bother with it......90% of the USAF is not even aware that this AFPD even exists.....much like 90% of the USAF does not even know that CAP exists.

So bottom line is not so much what the AFPD says....but what do WE....CAP Members think.   Are we part of the USAF.....most emphatically YES!  We are AIRMEN!

[/rant]

[RRLE]

I find this whole thread a bit ridiculous. I have read thread after thread where some of you complain about lack of a style guide. Then there is the "no triangle thingee' threads and sig lines and calls for one standard symbol/logo/what-have-you. It also appears the no-triangle-thingee campaign is about to fail.

So now instead of being satisfied that you are members of CAP, some of you want to go off and start using yet another term, airman, to describe yourselves. Why use airman for anything if it takes away, and it will, from the brand you have - CAP.