Someone brought this up within our squadron, (today was a dsarex) at ES schools (don't ask for specifics, I'm kinda new at ES. This week I has my first sarex and it was terrable, plane lead us to a gated community.) Do you really have to dig a trench and "do" your buisness there when others are next to you? Isn't this a little to much? (Yes I know that military does this, but we arnt military.) This was all just in my head so I decided to post it. Besides I know others are thinking about it.
you know, scrach the "at es school". This thread referes to missions too.
look at your task guide.
Yes field sanitation and hygiene is in there
Cap23, you hit what I was thinking on the head. The thing to realize, is yes, field san is most likely what this was for. The three Fs of field sanitation are food, flies, and feces, food and feces both attract flies greatly and one of the best ways to keep all three from touching each other is to keep a "slit trench". This will keep everyone using the latrine in one area well away from where you eat and sleep keeping everyone healthy. Granted other than the occasional Bivouac you would never use a slit trench, but it is still a good thing to know, because once the area gets laden with flies, just fill the slit trench wait an hour for the flies to disperse, and dig a new one elsewhere.
we teach cat holes and slit trenches
Quote from: cap235629 on January 24, 2011, 02:00:28 AM
look at your task guide.
Yes field sanitation and hygiene is in there
... there are like 300 pages in there... But I think I mixed things together to much, what I meant to ask was, what if someone had to do a #2? (Assuming I know wha a 2 is.). This would make a more then akwerd moment if someone else had to go.
so take turns, this isn't that difficult
Quote from: cap235629 on January 24, 2011, 02:32:18 AM
so take turns, this isn't that difficult
Ah, that's what my mother said when we rented our new house. Proven wrong.
The odds that you will ever need to do this in a CAP context (outside the initial tasking) approach zero.
Read the manual, fulfill the requirement to the satisfaction of the evaluator, and never think of it again.
we teach it, and test upon it (academically)
but nobody actually ever puts an e-tool in the ground.
They don't at NESA either.
Quote from: coudano on January 24, 2011, 02:46:45 AM
we teach it, and test upon it (academically)
but nobody actually ever puts an e-tool in the ground.
They don't at NESA either.
we actually dig and USE them on bivouac
Quote from: cap235629 on January 24, 2011, 02:49:01 AM
Quote from: coudano on January 24, 2011, 02:46:45 AM
we teach it, and test upon it (academically)
but nobody actually ever puts an e-tool in the ground.
They don't at NESA either.
we actually dig and USE them on bivouac
Learn something new everyday.
Quote from: ElectricPenguin on January 24, 2011, 03:32:05 AM
Quote from: cap235629 on January 24, 2011, 02:49:01 AM
Quote from: coudano on January 24, 2011, 02:46:45 AM
we teach it, and test upon it (academically)
but nobody actually ever puts an e-tool in the ground.
They don't at NESA either.
we actually dig and USE them on bivouac
Learn something new everyday.
Well, how else are you supposed to take care of business in the woods?
Quote from: davidsinn
Well, how else are you supposed to take care of business in the woods?
Standard issue reply with us Boy Scout types:
"There's a tree over there with your name on it, take enough toilet paper to cover the damage."
>:D
Quote from: davidsinn on January 24, 2011, 03:33:23 AM
Well, how else are you supposed to take care of business in the woods?
I generally use the toilet. By far the majority of CAP activities take place in campgrounds and other recreational areas
that have some level of facilities, and most of these places will ask you to leave if you start pooping in little holes all over the place.
Real-world missions have facilities and infrastructure to support the bio-needs of the ES assets.
This is one of those "basic survival" skills which is a nice-to-have in a 1% situation, but will never be needed by the average member
during a mission.
I'm going to agree, 99% of the time on a actual or practice ES mission, you better not be too far out of range of a toilet, or else someone is making questionable decisions about the deployment and employment of their ground resources.
Even at long duration 'camping/bivouac' style actual ES missions lately, there were toilets, at the very least portapotties.
Of course sometimes nature calls at inconvenient times, and I think you would respond the same way you would in a non-ES situation (say you were out for a day hike on your own time). No need for special training and evaluation there, imho.
Basically, the ground team qual, when GTM3, 2, and 1, were all just plain ole GTM, contained a bunch of wilderness survival stuff that got stripped out (ropse, expedient shelters, staying overnight outdoors, and so on). It got stripped out specifically because, while the outdoor skills are 'cool' they are not required as a practical matter, for CAP to conduct the vast majority of standard ground search ops.
Now if you wanna go on a biv, for fun, that's a different story from training for qualification as a GTM.
Curiously enough, there is a book on the subject: " How to S**t in the Woods" by Kathleen Meyer. Although the subject won't come up publicly too often, its not uncommon for Cadets to have a dread fear of using shared restroom facilities. BCS, Encampments, etc, often have a kid show up sick for this very reason, and too embarrassed to say anything about it. If they are afraid of spotless military heads, they are probably afraid of open air slit trenches. Its better to find out in advance and give a subtle warning to Cadets ( and some Seniors) about what conditions will be like. Bedwetting and Constipation are something most medical people have had to counsel kids on before a total melt down occurs.
Major Lord
Quote from: coudano on January 24, 2011, 02:46:45 AM
we teach it, and test upon it (academically)
but nobody actually ever puts an e-tool in the ground.
They don't at NESA either.
Erm, really? During the basic course, we definitely were out in the woods for a few days, and there were no toilets in sight the entire time. Our team dug a small trench an appropriate distance from our campsite, and that's what we used. And I used my e-tool from my gear to dig it myself.
As for the practicality if ever actually using something other than a toilet, remember that a pretty good portion of the GTM skills are based more around survival than any regular SAR mission I've ever been on. I've never had to set up a fire, or even a tent on a mission. I've never had to figure out which plants I could eat, use a signal mirror, or tie almost any of the knots I've learned to tie. Most missions involved me riding around in a van to an airport.
But if I was ever in a survival situation, mass casualty incident, or some sort of natural disaster situation, I would definitely be happy to have all of those skills. And I would probably not have time or ability to ruck it to a McDonald's to potty.
So on that note, I would actually advocate that learning proper field hygeine is one of the most IMPORTANT things that people can learn, and that an ES school would be doing the students a disservice by not teaching them based on the uncomfortable factor invovled. By the middle of the week of NESA, my BDU's were so soaked in sweat that I was pouring water from my canteen on them just to psychologically tell myself every morning that the cold wetness could just be the water. Any situation where a field toilet is necessary is not one in which you're going to be too worried about dignity...
"Any situation where a field toilet is necessary is not one in which you're going to be too worried about dignity..."
Well said! I think you must be Paraphrasing Pliny the Elder....
Major Lord
On that same line of thought make sure you ALWAYS have toilet paper handy. Once went on a SAREX where the GTL was the only one with TP. :-[
SAREX....I miss the old days of SARCAPs and SARDAs. :'(
In the modern CAP program, isn't a REDCAP a Red Beret
(getting this back to a uniform thread LOL)
Quote from: Nathan on January 24, 2011, 08:27:18 PM
Erm, really? During the basic course, we definitely were out in the woods for a few days, and there were no toilets in sight the entire time.
While I don't dispute your personal experience, I just pinged a member of GTM staff and was told there are facilities for the bivouacs.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 25, 2011, 03:42:44 AM
Quote from: Nathan on January 24, 2011, 08:27:18 PM
Erm, really? During the basic course, we definitely were out in the woods for a few days, and there were no toilets in sight the entire time.
While I don't dispute your personal experience, I just pinged a member of GTM staff and was told there are facilities for the bivouacs.
Hey, I don't doubt it. Maybe they were available on request, or are new, or just weren't available during my week. I don't know. Whatever the reason, it's probably a good thing that our team dug a hole instead of just holding it for the couple of days until we returned to the barracks. :)
Personally, as a senior member i took advantage of my ability to control it until i got back to a real toilet, haha. With a little self control and diet choice you can probably hold it for a few days...(not saying you should, but you can)
But bgsar we werent outside more than one consecutive night as i recall,
There were porta out there but the cadets around me were too lazy to walk when there was a tree much closer, or simply did what everyone else did, or maybe just didnt know about them.
Again the curric has probably changed since you attended, not sure when you went...
07, I think. Maybe 06. Can't recall for sure.
The Port-O-Johns started appearing in the training ranges around the 07-08 timeframe. Camp Atterbury has been putting hundreds of thousands of dollars into modernizing their facilities, which includes both the training and live fire ranges. The port-o-johns are generally out in the ranges when there are civilian contractors out working. This has been the case for the past several years. The Basic school historically has gone back to the cantonment area at least once a day, but the Advanced school does stay out in the training area for several days at a time.
I can clearly recall some of my best Army training in the field at places like Fort Ord, Fort Lewis, etc.
When having land nav problems during a movement to contact, simply find the "enemy's" bright blue or green porta-johns and then attack 50 meters to the left or right of the toilets.
Solved a lot of problems.
I understand we have been trying to ship a free green porta-john to Osama for some reason . . .
When in some places like Atterbury as a cadet I would have much preferred to use a slit trench than the outhouses they had. One giant long trough to urinate in filled with maggots and flies feeding off the mold. Same way in Fort Benning in OSUT. If there are the facilities then use them, if not dig yourself a slit trench and use some ponchos to divide the slit trench if you need to. Otherwise get your squadron a WAG kit. You can order them with the stool and they generally come with 100 or more WAG bags.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 29, 2011, 04:52:59 PM
When in some places like Atterbury as a cadet I would have much preferred to use a slit trench than the outhouses they had. One giant long trough to urinate in filled with maggots and flies feeding off the mold. Same way in Fort Benning in OSUT. If there are the facilities then use them, if not dig yourself a slit trench and use some ponchos to divide the slit trench if you need to. Otherwise get your squadron a WAG kit. You can order them with the stool and they generally come with 100 or more WAG bags.
That's disgusting. And what the **** (no pun intended) is a wag bag???
Quote from: ElectricPenguin on January 30, 2011, 02:49:58 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 29, 2011, 04:52:59 PM
When in some places like Atterbury as a cadet I would have much preferred to use a slit trench than the outhouses they had. One giant long trough to urinate in filled with maggots and flies feeding off the mold. Same way in Fort Benning in OSUT. If there are the facilities then use them, if not dig yourself a slit trench and use some ponchos to divide the slit trench if you need to. Otherwise get your squadron a WAG kit. You can order them with the stool and they generally come with 100 or more WAG bags.
That's disgusting. And what the **** (no pun intended) is a wag bag???
WAG (Waste Alleviation and Gelling) bags are pretty much like a toilet in a bag. They have a beaded chemical in the bottom of the bag that keeps everything from reeking while it is in the bag. They are useful in areas that don't allow digging and don't have any form of a latrine.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 29, 2011, 04:52:59 PMYou can order them with the stool and they generally come with 100 or more WAG bags.
Wow, such a deal! Cut the middle man right out. Pre-stocked, ready to go! .. (or gone already).
Oh, maybe thats not what you meant.
Quote from: a2capt on January 30, 2011, 04:31:16 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 29, 2011, 04:52:59 PMYou can order them with the stool and they generally come with 100 or more WAG bags.
Wow, such a deal! Cut the middle man right out. Pre-stocked, ready to go! .. (or gone already).
Oh, maybe thats not what you meant.
Hahaha Nice Sir. No, that is not what I meant by stool. Some of your thought processes make me want to hurl :o(mixed with) :-[. By stool I meant a toiletish seat.