More changes are a comin'

[arajca]

I've read through CAPR 174-1 draft twice. The biggest change at the unit level will be the requirement to validate everything online. Also, all issued equipment must be physically inspected annually as opposed to the member verifying they still have it.

A good point is the annual value recalculation. If you are issued a laptop, each year the value drops as the unit depreciates. So, if something happens to the laptop you are issued, you're not on the hook for the new cost, but rather the current value. I presume they're using industry standard schedules for this calculation.

Another good point is the process for annual inventory reporting - no more send reports to wing to send to CAP-USAF. Each unit will submit it through ORMS at the end of the fiscal year.

The new reg also requires the unit to have access to a scanner.

[jimmydeanno]

Are there any units that wouldn't have a scanner at this point?  I thought they were all provided with Copy/Printer/Fax machines in the last few years.  At our unit, we have three generations of multi-function machines issued by the wing...

I'm all for online validations, etc.  As long as it makes things easier for the units to do, I'm good with it.  Added bureaucracy isn't my dish.

[ZigZag911]

Regarding the E-4 issue: since the reg allows former/retired NCOs to receive equivalent grade in CAP, this needs to be addressed...these members are no longer active in the military (regular, reserve or guard), and won't receive further promotion to E-5.

If we want to say E-5 and above only, we can do that, but the reg should be made clear.

[RADIOMAN015]

I've read through CAPR 174-1 draft twice. The biggest change at the unit level will be the requirement to validate everything online. Also, all issued equipment must be physically inspected annually as opposed to the member verifying they still have it.

A good point is the annual value recalculation. If you are issued a laptop, each year the value drops as the unit depreciates. So, if something happens to the laptop you are issued, you're not on the hook for the new cost, but rather the current value. I presume they're using industry standard schedules for this calculation.

Another good point is the process for annual inventory reporting - no more send reports to wing to send to CAP-USAF. Each unit will submit it through ORMS at the end of the fiscal year.

The new reg also requires the unit to have access to a scanner.

Yes the computerization data base seems to be an excellent idea.  I would think that most units would at least want to download a copy of the inventory either for print out or at least to place on one computer and/or memory stick.  Not sure how many units have flatbed scanners.

It's interesting that the potential monetary assessment for "negligence", seems to be open ended.  Before there was a distinction between "simple" & "gross" negligence which limited the monetary assessment.  This regulation also fails to define "negligence".    Additionally the member that gets assessed for over $500.00, can extend repayment greater than 12 months.  Hopefully there would be some compassion in CAP for the retired/disabled members that owe under $500.00 and financially needs to extend the payment for greater than 12 months also

Regarding depreciation, if the straight line method (e.g. same $$ amount every year) is used for cameras, computers, radio equipment, vehicles, the members will actually be paying more for CAP's book value at time of loss, since other organization's normally use accelerated methods of depreciation for these asset classes (and this book value is less).  Also anyone being assessed should look at the market value of the asset external to cap.  As an example EF Johnson radios, as assets on CAP inventory records for approx $1.7K each; but the exact models currently sells in the high $500's to 600's range externally on commercial markets.

Further noted is that units can be assessed for losses damages as well as members.  So I would guess if a unit's member tells CAP "to stick it where the sun doesn't shine" on an assessment (just quits or makes partial payment on what he/she feels is adequate than stops), with the Wing Banker's program, CAP hq might just take the funds from the unit    (So this is probably another reason to have fund raising & a separate support organization rather than to have large $$ balances in squadron official bank accounts that could be plundered by higher headquarters  ).

There's very little protection in this regulation for CAP members or units.  It basically is making sure there's a consistent assessment strategy/policy followed and I'm willing to bet that more members/units are going to end up paying larger amounts than in the past in case of damage or loss.  BTW this entire process is primarily due to CAP's unwillingness to buy insurance that most other non profit organizations' buy (to protect themselves from asset losses as well as their voluntary members) , and to insist on the "self insurance" strategy, which really puts the dedicated volunteer individual members at risk in case of loss/damage to CAP equipment. 
RM                 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Regarding the E-4 issue: since the reg allows former/retired NCOs to receive equivalent grade in CAP, this needs to be addressed...these members are no longer active in the military (regular, reserve or guard), and won't receive further promotion to E-5.

If we want to say E-5 and above only, we can do that, but the reg should be made clear.

Better yet, put a two-track promotion schedule together for adult enlisted personnel — one for former military personnel who would like further promotion, and a track for those folks off the street without the ability to promote via direct appointment. Maybe the AEPSM curriculum as well as an adaptation of the cadet D&C curriculum could be involved, along with specialty tracks and ES training requirements?

[Major Carrales]

Regarding the E-4 issue: since the reg allows former/retired NCOs to receive equivalent grade in CAP, this needs to be addressed...these members are no longer active in the military (regular, reserve or guard), and won't receive further promotion to E-5.

If we want to say E-5 and above only, we can do that, but the reg should be made clear.

Better yet, put a two-track promotion schedule together for adult enlisted personnel — one for former military personnel who would like further promotion, and a track for those folks off the street without the ability to promote via direct appointment. Maybe the AEPSM curriculum as well as an adaptation of the cadet D&C curriculum could be involved, along with specialty tracks and ES training requirements?

Why do CAP Officers (Senior Members) need to do D&C?  I can see resistance to it.

[Spike]

RADIOMAN,

The REG does not afford many protections.  It is bringing CAP members more in line (responsibility wise) with Federal Employees.  I think this is coming from CAP-USAF, and not necessarily the Corporate side.

If I read correctly, if you fail to pay the damage amount you may loose CAP membership.  Did anyone else pick up on this??  Seriously if I torch a CAP Van, and they charge me $23,000 I will take the membership termination over paying!  They need to be more clear, that the Government can go after you and garnish wages or social security/ retirement benefits for damage costs.  However doing that would most likely scare off members we already have, not to mention a few prospective ones. 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Regarding the E-4 issue: since the reg allows former/retired NCOs to receive equivalent grade in CAP, this needs to be addressed...these members are no longer active in the military (regular, reserve or guard), and won't receive further promotion to E-5.

If we want to say E-5 and above only, we can do that, but the reg should be made clear.

Better yet, put a two-track promotion schedule together for adult enlisted personnel — one for former military personnel who would like further promotion, and a track for those folks off the street without the ability to promote via direct appointment. Maybe the AEPSM curriculum as well as an adaptation of the cadet D&C curriculum could be involved, along with specialty tracks and ES training requirements?

Why do CAP Officers (Senior Members) need to do D&C?  I can see resistance to it.

Because, frankly, many of our officers senior adult regular members should learn to lead by example. We wear the Air Force uniform; it is incumbent upon those who wear it to have some modicum of military bearing and understanding of military customs and courtesies.

This is not a negotiable point. Our nation's uniform comes with traditions and responsibilities. And as long as CAP members are afforded the privilege of wearing the nation's uniform, we must hold up our end.

Besides that, many of our senior members are privately ridiculed by cadets for being absolutely, totally clueless and unworthy of the grade they wear because they don't even know how to salute, let alone do a little close-order drill. Speaking as a former cadet, I can vouch for that. It also is why many Air Force personnel think we're a joke, wearing their uniform and making a mockery of it, insulting the warrior's tradition by being so casual and cavalier.

When you wear officer grade, you're supposed to be held to a higher standard. Don't want the responsibilities and want to show the respect that comes with the uniform, there's always the Golf Course Uniform and other non-military combinations.

Wow, man, sorry to unload on you. Sorry if you had to put the flak jacket on all the way across the gulf. But I hope you appreciate my sentiment.

[Major Carrales]

Regarding the E-4 issue: since the reg allows former/retired NCOs to receive equivalent grade in CAP, this needs to be addressed...these members are no longer active in the military (regular, reserve or guard), and won't receive further promotion to E-5.

If we want to say E-5 and above only, we can do that, but the reg should be made clear.

Better yet, put a two-track promotion schedule together for adult enlisted personnel — one for former military personnel who would like further promotion, and a track for those folks off the street without the ability to promote via direct appointment. Maybe the AEPSM curriculum as well as an adaptation of the cadet D&C curriculum could be involved, along with specialty tracks and ES training requirements?

Why do CAP Officers (Senior Members) need to do D&C?  I can see resistance to it.

Because, frankly, many of our officers senior adult regular members should learn to lead by example. We wear the Air Force uniform; it is incumbent upon those who wear it to have some modicum of military bearing and understanding of military customs and courtesies.

This is not a negotiable point. Our nation's uniform comes with traditions and responsibilities. And as long as CAP members are afforded the privilege of wearing the nation's uniform, we must hold up our end.

Besides that, many of our senior members are privately ridiculed by cadets for being absolutely, totally clueless and unworthy of the grade they wear because they don't even know how to salute, let alone do a little close-order drill. Speaking as a former cadet, I can vouch for that. It also is why many Air Force personnel think we're a joke, wearing their uniform and making a mockery of it, insulting the warrior's tradition by being so casual and cavalier.

When you wear officer grade, you're supposed to be held to a higher standard. Don't want the responsibilities and want to show the respect that comes with the uniform, there's always the Golf Course Uniform and other non-military combinations.

Wow, man, sorry to unload on you. Sorry if you had to put the flak jacket on all the way across the gulf. But I hope you appreciate my sentiment.

NO need to worry.  I'm with ya.  I'm just gonna address this matter in my weekly newsletter and was curious how others would react.

[SarDragon]

Why do CAP Officers (Senior Members) need to do D&C?  I can see resistance to it.

We should know enough D&C to do the following:

Perform a proper salute
Stand at attention
Stand at both rest positions
Perform facing movements correctly
March to the extent needed to accept an award in a proper manner.

If middle school kids can learn to do these, I see no reason why adults can't also.

[Spike]

Besides that, many of our senior members are privately ridiculed by cadets for being absolutely, totally clueless and unworthy of the grade they wear because they don't even know how to salute, let alone do a little close-order drill. Speaking as a former cadet, I can vouch for that. It also is why many Air Force personnel think we're a joke, wearing their uniform and making a mockery of it, insulting the warrior's tradition by being so casual and cavalier.

Two things.  I was at a Wing Conference where a Cadet Called me out on being part of the "Fakey Officer Club", I let it go and kept on walking.  Two weeks later I go to my Reserve Drill and am introduced to a young man who is just on his way to Basic, and it was that same Cadet who had made the rude comments to me.  The shock and look of terror on his face when he saw the Captains bars on my green's was awesome.  He had just realized he made a huge mistake and I was his Commander.

About 5 years ago I was attending a SAREX and had a unique conversation with a CAP-RAP member.  She said she did not accept why CAP members wear Officer rank, and she would never call them Sir or Ma'am.  I did not expect this from an Air Force Member.  A few months later we run into each other at the Commissary me in ACU's, she in BDU's, and she tried to avoid me until I asked her if she would like to step in front of me in line since she only had three items.  Embarrassed she accepted, most likely just to get away from making any more conversation.     

Moral of the story, you never know what person is wearing the CAP uniform.  I have met Senators in CAP uniform, as well as Mayors and AD Colonels.  We need to respect each other in CAP.  We all volunteer for separate personal reasons, but in the end we ALL volunteered. 

I am sick of hearing how CAP rank means nothing, how we pretend to be Air Force or that we should not be in an Air Force uniform.  CAP Rank is a reward for selfless service, we followed Air Force traditions before there was even an Air Force and we wear our Countries uniform at a time when less and less Americans are supportive of the Military.

Those naysayers need to keep their opinions to themselves, when your only desire is to diminish the sacrifices and achievements of CAP members everywhere.  Just because you don't agree with how CAP is does not mean you should convince others of that.  You are free to resign yourselves at any time. 

This is NOT directed at Buckeye.  I only quoted his words for reference on what seems to be a growing sector within CAP.   

[Major Carrales]

Well said, Spike. How we carry ourselves in CAP uniform reinforces the meaning of that rank.  Let is be know that our value and worth is defined by how we act, to belittle these types of things in CAP is a self-fulfilling type of situation.

Let us take pride in our traditions and make the meanings clear by example. 

[heliodoc]

With all the changes with CAP to align with the Guv

It should have been done a long time ago

AND

With all the responsibilities going on , it MIGHT have to do with the DHS HLS anyway.  Do this or else is the underlying theme

For us with RM experience...this is a no brainer....

For those just thinking CAP....... More responsibility will lie on the individual .

Too bad we're still a "Corporation."  Maybe the "Corporate" attitude will slowly ebb away

As for the uniform stuff.......WOW even this thread is about....wait one...    UNIFORMS...AGAIN!!!! 

How about that CAP Sr Member D&C stuff??   how about limiting it 15 minutes a week nite....there is sooooooomuch more to running a Squadron. 

I too am sick and tired of alot of things in CAP..... perpetuated by many individuals PRETENDING to be officers and leaders.  Leadership in CAP leaves ALOT to be desired as I have been witnessing lately.  Leading by example, seems to be the toughest one for MANY Wings

[DrJbdm]

 I strongly believe that CAP needs much higher standards to become a CAP officer. 6 months and have a pulse is not high enough! I would say that at an absolute minimum keep the current ECI 13 and make it a requirement before you become eligible to become a 2nd Lt.

[Cecil DP]

I strongly believe that CAP needs much higher standards to become a CAP officer. 6 months and have a pulse is not high enough! I would say that at an absolute minimum keep the current ECI 13 and make it a requirement before you become eligible to become a 2nd Lt.

According to 50-17 attaining the Certificate of Profeciency (Davis Award) is when you are considered a "functioning Officer". So why not use that as the gateway for commissioning?

[JohnKachenmeister]

I agree with everything that Spike said.

Here in Gp 4, we require our new officers to attend a weekend OTS.  They learn drill to the same standards as Curry-level cadets... basic drill, facings, salutes, reporting to an officer, etc.  We even have cadet officers and NCO's help teach them.  It is fun to watch a group of 50-somethings in formation while a teenager says:  "I am Chief Master Sergeant Umpdefrat, and I will be your instructor.  At this time we will learn the right and left facing maneuvers."

I know a weekend isn't much, but it is more than most do.  We have been doing it for a year, and the retention of our OTS officers is much greater than the untrained officers.  So is their duty performance, according to their squadron commanders.

I think is is nothing more than the feeling that they have earned their rank.  They wear it more proudly.

[Short Field]

I strongly believe that CAP needs much higher standards to become a CAP officer. 6 months and have a pulse is not high enough!

  :clap:   I totally agree.  And since so many want us to be more AF and follow the AF standards, make the requirements to be a CAP officer the same as to be a USAF officer.  Then there will be plenty of need (and bodies) to fill out the CAP enlisted ranks so many people want to see.    However, you would have to do something about the pesky "up or out" policies on promotion. 

[Capt Rivera]

Here in Gp 4, we require our new officers to attend a weekend OTS.  They learn drill to the same standards as Curry-level cadets... basic drill, facings, salutes, reporting to an officer, etc.

We have been doing it for a year, and the retention of our OTS officers is much greater than the untrained officers.  So is their duty performance, according to their squadron commanders.

I think is is nothing more than the feeling that they have earned their rank.  They wear it more proudly.

Is there anything online about this? Is it a squadron/group/wing course? Any numbers on this?

[RADIOMAN015]

Here in Gp 4, we require our new officers to attend a weekend OTS.  They learn drill to the same standards as Curry-level cadets... basic drill, facings, salutes, reporting to an officer, etc..

Again why are you adding more hoops that adult volunteers have to jump through that isn't required
Level 1 training at:  http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/cap_university/professional_development/afiadl__cap_student_page/level_one.cfm
Module 4, provides appropriate training for senior members on what CAP considers to be the requirements of a CAP senior member -- it does not include marching/drill!

I would think about 1 hour or less of time would be required to help one master these movements   One entire weekend of this, is not what the intention was of re doing the level 1 training for adult members (to save their valuable time to do more important things).   Other advance course such as SLS, & CLC provide what is needed for CAP officers to advance.

Other than basic enlisted/officer training in the AF, and some other PME courses, NO one (unless you are on a ceremonial team) in the AF at the base level  is doing any marching/drilling on a regular basis.  They are too busy doing real mission work that needs to be done (rather than marching around in circles,which seems to me we even have our cadets doing way too much of as it is now).  Most change of command ceremonies have military members standing in place at attention, parade rest, & at ease rather than marching/passing in review, primarily because all the squadrons would have to practice this ahead of time, and mission requirements are more important than "marching in circles"!

Apparently some of you in CAP just haven't figure out yet that the majority of CAP senior members have little or no interest in marching, drill & ceremonies -- that the way it is folks :angel:   

RM

[Short Field]

^^^ Personally, I think a lot of this comes from the non-military service members and members who were in one of the USAF's sister services.  We are NOT the Army or Marine aux.  In 28 years of service, I only marched while in a training status (BMT, AFROTC, Tech School).  I was in lots of formations, but we always got lined up, spaced out, put into "Attention", "Dress Right", then back to "Parade Rest" and "Rest".  Then finally "Dismissed".  No marching into position.