More changes are a comin'

[arajca]

The following publications are up for comment:

CAPR 35-5,CAP Officer and Noncommissioned Officer Appointments and Promotions

CAPR 174-1, Property Management

I haven't reviewed the new CAPR 35-5, but the new CAPR 174-1 - which will replace CAPR 67-1, 67-4, 77-1 (parts), 87-1, 100-2, and 900-6 - has some significant changes and it takes effect 1 Oct 2009. If you are involved with Logistics, Communications, or Command, I highly recommend reviewing it.

[Pylon]

One of the CAPR 35-5 issues they haven't resolved is E-3 NCOs becoming CAP NCOs.

CAPR 35-5, 6-2, a states:  "a. Only those CAP members who are military or ex-military NCOs and do not wish to be considered for CAP officer grades may be appointed to a CAP NCO grade under provisions of this section. The CAP grade granted will be equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve, or National Guard."

Key pieces there:  Those who are or were NCOs; CAP grade granted will be equivalent.

In some services E-3's can be Non-Commissioned Officers.  There is no equivalent CAP grade now that "Sergeant" (which the Air Force equivalent is called "Senior Airman") has been eliminated.  So in the rare case of a current or former E-3 would like to be a CAP NCO, they are entitled to an equivalent grade but none exists.  Add a clause to make them all CAP Staff Sergeants or bring back the CAP Sergeant three-stripe NCO grade.

[Spike]

^ Mike, I have heartburn over this issue.  I had two E-3's (AF type) join the Squadron last year and they wanted to join as enlisted CAP members.  Instead they joined, we never promoted them to 2nd Lt (at the required 6 month time frame) but waited until they made E-4 in the Active Duty AF two months ago.

I also have had prior service and currently serving Army individuals want to join who only had E-2 or E-3. 

It is shame.  I do not understand the reasoning behind the requirement to be an (AF) NCO.

[Spike]

The property management reg looks more in line with other Government Agencies (which is needed).  It does appear we will be doing a few hours of scanning documents and getting paperwork signed once this reg goes into policy mode. 

[Pylon]

^ Mike, I have heartburn over this issue.  I had two E-3's (AF type) join the Squadron last year and they wanted to join as enlisted CAP members.  Instead they joined, we never promoted them to 2nd Lt (at the required 6 month time frame) but waited until they made E-4 in the Active Duty AF two months ago.

I also have had prior service and currently serving Army individuals want to join who only had E-2 or E-3. 

It is shame.  I do not understand the reasoning behind the requirement to be an (AF) NCO.

Actually, we're talking about separate issues.   I'm talking about E-3's who are NCOs in the Armed Forces, and are already entitled to CAP NCO grade not having the appropriate equivalent CAP NCO grade to wear.   You're talking about changing the structure by extending CAP non-officer grades to cover those who are Armed Forces personnel in pay grades E-1 through E-3.  Separate issues entirely.

[Spike]

^ I understand.  Little slow on the uptake.  I agree with you though. 

[NIN]

Mike, forgive me for being slow, but can you explain to me which military allows an E-3 to be considered a "non-commissioned officer"?  Because I'm reasonable sure that its none of ours.

[VPI18]

^ Mike, I have heartburn over this issue.  I had two E-3's (AF type) join the Squadron last year and they wanted to join as enlisted CAP members.  Instead they joined, we never promoted them to 2nd Lt (at the required 6 month time frame) but waited until they made E-4 in the Active Duty AF two months ago.

I also have had prior service and currently serving Army individuals want to join who only had E-2 or E-3. 

It is shame.  I do not understand the reasoning behind the requirement to be an (AF) NCO.

Actually, we're talking about separate issues.   I'm talking about E-3's who are NCOs in the Armed Forces, and are already entitled to CAP NCO grade not having the appropriate equivalent CAP NCO grade to wear.   You're talking about changing the structure by extending CAP non-officer grades to cover those who are Armed Forces personnel in pay grades E-1 through E-3.  Separate issues entirely.

With all due respect, sir, I believe that E-3 is not an NCO in ANY branch of the armed forces. E-4 are NCOs in the Navy, Coast Guard, and Marine Corps. Some E-4s are NCOs in the Army (CPL), while others are not (SPC). No Air Force E-4 is an NCO, and according to the reg, they are not entitled to CAP NCO grade. However, I believe the CAP equivalent for an E-4 NCO IS Sergeant, but using the chevrons for an SrA. Unfortunately, I don't remember where I read this... 

[Camas]

Not sure if this is on topic but I believe that only the Navy, Coast Guard and Marines do you have E-4's as NCO's other than Army corporals. I was in the Army at the time AF E-4's were "sergeants" and that was just a joke.

[MIKE]

I don't think Lance Corporal counts even in the Marines, and that is the only E-3 that would possibly.   What they should do is just drop the NCO bit and just include AB-SrA as equivalent grades for those that want to retain them.

[Spike]

^ Agreed!  Now if only we can get more people to support the idea. 

[Pylon]

Mike, forgive me for being slow, but can you explain to me which military allows an E-3 to be considered a "non-commissioned officer"?  Because I'm reasonable sure that its none of ours.

Doh!  Meant to be saying E-4 (needed more coffee today apparently to get with it).  E-4 NCOs (like USMC Corporal, Army Corporal are the ones without an equivalent CAP NCO grade.   CAP Staff Sergeant would be the equivalent grade for those who are/were E-5, but is the lowest CAP NCO grade available.  Defeats the equivalency clause in the reg.

[Cecil DP]

^ Mike, I have heartburn over this issue.  I had two E-3's (AF type) join the Squadron last year and they wanted to join as enlisted CAP members.  Instead they joined, we never promoted them to 2nd Lt (at the required 6 month time frame) but waited until they made E-4 in the Active Duty AF two months ago.

I also have had prior service and currently serving Army individuals want to join who only had E-2 or E-3. 

It is shame.  I do not understand the reasoning behind the requirement to be an (AF) NCO.

Actually, we're talking about separate issues.   I'm talking about E-3's who are NCOs in the Armed Forces, and are already entitled to CAP NCO grade not having the appropriate equivalent CAP NCO grade to wear.   You're talking about changing the structure by extending CAP non-officer grades to cover those who are Armed Forces personnel in pay grades E-1 through E-3.  Separate issues entirely.

NCO grades don't start until E-4.

[D2SK]

Instead of using ambiguous terms like NCO - why don't we just say what we mean...if you are an E-5 or above, you can wear your stripes in CAP.  Seriously, do we try to make stuff difficult on purpose?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Instead of using ambiguous terms like NCO - why don't we just say what we mean...if you are an E-5 or above, you can wear your stripes in CAP.  Seriously, do we try to make stuff difficult on purpose?

I don't know if they tried to make it difficult on purpose, but E-4's in the Navy are considered NCO's (called Petty Officers) as are Marine E-4's and Army "Hard stripe" corporals.  The Air Force USED to split the E-4 grade with some E-4's being SrA's and others being called "Sergeant."  (Remember the McPeak days of the Big Blue Dot on the chevrons?  NCO's got a white star, lower enlisted got an embroidered blue star on a matching blue field.)

CAP's enlisted rank structure has not changed with the Air Force's, which shouldn't surprise anyone.  We still have leather nametags on flight suits, plastic encased bright insignia on flight suits, ultramarine blue nametapes on BDU's, and propellers on our airplanes.

[Gunner C]

Reference CAPR 35-5:  There is NO such grade as CWO 1!  There is a WO 1 and a CWO 2.

Who writes this stuff??

[Spike]

CAP's enlisted rank structure has not changed with the Air Force's, which shouldn't surprise anyone.  We still have leather nametags on flight suits, plastic encased bright insignia on flight suits, ultramarine blue nametapes on BDU's, and propellers on our airplanes.

Not surprised except for the fact that the Cadet program was able to make the change, but yet the Senior Program was forgotten about.....

I am surprised we are getting riled up about rank here instead of the changes in the new logistics reg. 

[SarDragon]

How many E-4s are we talking about here? How long will someone be stuck as a SMWOG (NCO E-4)? Only until they promote to E-5. How long does that take these days? 18 months? 24 months? If someone cannot progress in the military from E-4 to E-5, the likelihood of their ability to progress as a CAP officer could be questionable.

After looking at the various requirements, it appears that the longest someone will have to wait, based on minimum TIG and the member joining the day they promote to E-4, is 12 months. Since all CAP NCO promotions are tied to their military rank anyway, why is this such a big deal? Someone becoming an NCO member should be given guidance on the promotion structure early on in their indoctrination, and be aware of the differences.

I don't see a big problem here. Can any of you present realistic figures on the number of members affected by this "problem"?

[Major Carrales]

CAP's enlisted rank structure has not changed with the Air Force's, which shouldn't surprise anyone.  We still have leather nametags on flight suits, plastic encased bright insignia on flight suits, ultramarine blue nametapes on BDU's, and propellers on our airplanes.

Not surprised except for the fact that the Cadet program was able to make the change, but yet the Senior Program was forgotten about.....

I am surprised we are getting riled up about rank here instead of the changes in the new logistics reg.

It might be because CAP structure as it has existed for these many years has no really place for NCOs. (now it should be pointed out that Three Years ago an very conscious effort was made and a CMSgt of the CAP even existed for a while, but that issue died with the controversies of that time) 

Now, before some of you blinded by some sense that makes you think that that was some insult...read beyond this phrase.

Currently, we produce the 6 month 2nd Lt.  Any person with a high school degree who concludes Level I is promoted to 2nd Lt, some are sort of breveted/appointed to some grade for mission related or prior duty grade.

This means that Enlisted grade is out of the norm.  That does not mean that NCOs do not being in needed skills.  I have always seen it a more of an hommage to years of service and a respect for the contributions of the Non-Commissioned Officer to the Armed Forces. 

Now, if one started as a Airman Basic upon joining and promoted up (with certain criteria for holding officers ranks and grade) this would be different.

This is one of those glaring differences between the culture of CAP and that of the USAF and its Reserve and Guard components that I am always harping about that shows why USAF concepts, policy and ideas cannot merely be grafted on CAP.

[CAPSGT]

I am surprised we are getting riled up about rank here instead of the changes in the new logistics reg.

Agreed.

Honestly, to me the new Logistics reg doesn't seem to be too much of a drastic change like the cover letter made it out to be.  To me it simply appears that they are moving more stuff online for better tracking and accountability like they have been with everything in CAP and are consolidating systems, documents, etc.  There are a few new things, but for the most part they really won't affect your average squadron member on a regular basis.