The Relevance of the Chaplain to CAP...

[Eclipse]

If I were under your command, no amount of bluster or "what if-ing" would get me to violate my ordination (an authority FAR beyond anything presumed/assumed by a CAP officer or commander) to violate the sanctity of the confessional. That is a sacred trust with God.

Nor should anyone expect you to.

I'm in way over my skies on this to have an academic argument.

As with all things, personal experience is usually the filter through which our attitudes are formed.  Unfortunately my experience with CAP chaplains has not been very positive, most I have had personal contact with are clergy who happen to be members and were appointed by a well-intentioned commander without an understanding of the ramifications and responsibilities of a "real" CAP Chaplain - from there its a bunch of invocations, hurt feelings and uncomfortable conversations.

Some of those same well-intentioned gentlemen were also "less than non-secular", which caused further issues in their participation.

I appreciate the fact that it has already been noted this is not the proper attitude.

[DogCollar]

I guess there needs to be a reminder of the rules governing chaplain appointments.  First, the chaplain needs to be endoresed for this ministry by his or her denomination-religious certifying body.  There is a checking of credentials, both professional and educational credentials, and the appointment comes from the Chief of Chaplains and National Commander...not a unit commander.  There is much more that goes into than I am providing here, but the important thing to remember is that there IS a process...and it doesn't allow a unit commander to "appoint" a "chaplain" in anyway, shape or form.  MLO's need to be approved by the Wing Chaplain and Wing Commander for their appointments...again, a ujnit commander does not have the authority to appoint a MLO.

[Eclipse]

a unit commander does not have the authority to appoint a MLO.

You're 100% correct, which doesn't stop them from calling "Pastor Doe", "our chaplain".

[Nomex Maximus]

a unit commander does not have the authority to appoint a MLO.

You're 100% correct, which doesn't stop them from calling "Pastor Doe", "our chaplain".

...so a minister who is a CAP member has to first have a chaplain's form 5C checkride before he can be a CAP minister, and once he gets that chaplain checkride he has to then appear in the chaplains release report on e-services, either as a "mission chaplain" (can take part in actual counseling) or as a "transport mission chaplain" where he can only counsel on the way to or from a mission...?

[Psicorp]

I admit I had the same questions/concerns when I joined my present unit. No other squadron I've been in has had a CAP Chaplain.  In the distant past I was able to get AF Chaplains to conduct the Moral Leadership sessions and tried to get one of a different faith periodically.

Military Chaplains usually remind me of Father Francis Mulcahy from the tv show MASH.    He may be a Catholic Priest, but he's there to listen and his guidance rarely ever included chapter and verse recitations.

Civilian Chaplains, on the other hand, generally aren't used to such a wide spectrum of beliefs and tend to have a narrower view. 

Our current squadron Chaplain does an outstanding job and I find his presence to be soothing in a way that's hard to explain and I'm not even a Christian.   His invocations are usually directed to "All Powerful One".  Which could mean anything (God, Vishnu, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster).   

[DogCollar]

a unit commander does not have the authority to appoint a MLO.

You're 100% correct, which doesn't stop them from calling "Pastor Doe", "our chaplain".

The unit commander that is using "Pastor Doe" and calling him/her "our chaplain," is in violation of CAP regulations, and even more important puts his or her unit at risk for legal action if there were EVER and accusation of misconduct.  I'd bet dimes to dollars there would be NO legal help from CAP.  They will say, "hey, we have rules...that commander broke them...he and Pastor Doe hold all the liability."  Further, knowledge of this practice without reporting it up in the chain of command exposes that officer to risk as well.

[DogCollar]

a unit commander does not have the authority to appoint a MLO.

You're 100% correct, which doesn't stop them from calling "Pastor Doe", "our chaplain".

...so a minister who is a CAP member has to first have a chaplain's form 5C checkride before he can be a CAP minister, and once he gets that chaplain checkride he has to then appear in the chaplains release report on e-services, either as a "mission chaplain" (can take part in actual counseling) or as a "transport mission chaplain" where he can only counsel on the way to or from a mission...?

I have no idea what you are talking about, but...if a minister wants to be a CAP chaplain, there is a defined process to follow.  If your credentials aren't up to snuff, or you're unwilling to follow the process, you are not going to be a CAP Chaplain no matter what kind of lovely person you are.

[Nomex Maximus]

I have no idea what you are talking about, but...if a minister wants to be a CAP chaplain, there is a defined process to follow.  If your credentials aren't up to snuff, or you're unwilling to follow the process, you are not going to be a CAP Chaplain no matter what kind of lovely person you are.

...it's a CAP pilot yolk... replace "chaplain" with "pilot" ...

[DogCollar]

...it's a CAP pilot yolk... replace "chaplain" with "pilot" ...

Ah.  I see.

Quote tags -TA

[Chaplaindon]

IAW CAPR 265-1, Section C, paragraph 14h., commanders MAY under specific limitations utilize "clergy from the local community" in for ministry support in the local unit as long as that clergyperson has "the approval of the region or wing chaplain" and can serve in this supplimental capacity for up to 6 months.

We used to call these "community clergy[persons]" "visiting clergy." They are clergy but are not chaplains.

Here is the relevant citation of the regulation:

"h. Additional Personnel. Commanders may supplement the CAP Chaplain Service program as follows:

(1) Active duty, Reserve, National Guard, and Veteran's Administration chaplains serving CAP units as CAP non-members.

(2) Clergy from the local community will be escorted at all times by a senior member in compliance with cadet protection requirements. Community clergy will have the approval of the region or wing chaplain as applicable and will serve in this capacity for a maximum of 6 months. Community clergy who are successful in providing ministry to CAP units should be encouraged to join the CAP Chaplain Service."

[JohnKachenmeister]

...it's a CAP pilot yolk... replace "chaplain" with "pilot" ...

Ha ha... That's funny. A "Form 5" for the "Sky Pilot!" 

If HE crashes, you really do "Burn!"

Quote tags -TA

[Chaplaindon]

Also, while folks (especially those in command) familiarize themselves with the provisions of CAPR 265-1, they might find an examination of THE COVENANT AND CODE OF ETHICS FOR CHAPLAINS OF THE CIVIL AIR PATROL (CAPR 265-2, 25FEB1995) beneficial and enlightening as well.

This document details the ethical requirements incumbent on a CAP chaplain ... including confidentiality. Note, this is a REGULATION and as such compliance is mandatory.

It's a worthwhile read.

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503081120.pdf

[Chaplaindon]

Ha ha... That's funny. A "Form 5" for the "Sky Pilot!" 
If HE crashes, you really do "Burn!"

Sorry my previous post didn't work ... and I can't get Katch's quote inserted ... oh well

Now the punchline ...

Just wait 'til you meet the Checkpilot!

Quote tags -TA

[RplnXbrnt]

Yes, radical. This is an age of extreme political correctness in America and Christ is, as you say, a "no-no".  There was a recent TV series that my wife sometimes subjected me to - "Seventh Heaven" - which was a show about the life of a protestant minister and his family. What always fascinated me about that show was how the whole point of the show was that it was about the life of a minister but how every possible reference to Christ was avoided (and what could be more important to the life of a protestant minister than Christ?) and how they never showed a cross  - not even when the show would have scenes inside a church (!)

Right, because ABC television is representative of US culture. Furthermore -- have you perhaps considered the possibility that the show is about the minister and his family as they function separately from their faith? One of my best friends is a Catholic seminarian, and, typically, the only reminder that I have of that fact (aside from my own knowledge of it) is the occasional mention of scheduling conflicts and the every-once-in-a-while appearance of him in a cassock. And believe me when I tell you that he is a very deeply religious man.

Radical? Yes, when you consider that in this day and age we even have protracted debates and court cases about whether or not we can still have "In God We Trust" on our money or government buildings - we aren't even talking about Christ here, even the mention of "God" is considered by some to be an offensive attack on their religious freedom.

I hardly think that this is evidence of a widespread culture of "radical secularism." I'm not particularly convinced that even these singular examples are radical. For one thing, the references to "God" in our government establishments does not originate with those government establishments. This isn't the place for a history discussion or a politics discussion -- so I won't entertain that further.

Otherwise, there is a very distinct difference between referring to "God" and referring to "Christ," insofar as most non-Christians are concerned. Merely acknowledging the existence of a select few that grow offended at this does not in any bolster your claim that we're in an age of "radical secularism."

So then you see the conflict - Chaplain Don there for example, is actively recruited by CAP to come and be a "spiritual adviser", a "counselor" to give counsel in time of crisis and whenever a CAP member needs to talk and there he is with a cross upon the collar of his Civil Air Patrol uniform. How do we reconcile that?

How many people are actually offended or affronted by this? Seems to me like you're just looking for problems and controversy.

We had a meeting last night at our unit and a new chaplain came by. He had a short (15 minute) video that he wanted to play for us at the meeting. It was a movie from the 50's prepared by Moody Bible Institute and (mostly) dealt with the concepts of instrument flying presented by missionary aviators. The point of the film was that the pilot must "have faith in his instruments" - the vague reference to faith throughout the film finally coming to a conclusion with the quotation of some  scriptures. I wasn't really sure about what the film accomplished for us as CAP members, but a new prospective member who watched it with us when asked what he thought said politely, "well, it was different."

Just because the chaplain did it doesn't mean it fits into the context of what the chaplain is supposed/allowed to do.

Religion, sanitized from actual belief, seems quite empty to me.

What's your point? Chaplains aren't strictly limited to providing religious services. And when they do, provided they follow the appropriate customs, there's nothing wrong with it.

But that is the very thing that we seem to be dancing around here with the chaplaincy - we want them here (I want them here) but we don't want them to speak the truth (their truth) unless it is asked for privately. The whole aspect that somehow CAP has a high priority to provide spiritual counsel seems like a very odd conflict to me. It seems that once again we have a throwback to military tradition - the American military has always had chaplains so we in CAP now continue that tradition, whether it is in conflict with modern American civilian customs or not.

I guess what I would really wish to see is a departure from this radical secularism.

Define "radical."

If we decide we want chaplains in CAP then fine, recruit chaplains and let them say what they will - Christ and all - and let the individual members be trusted with the internal wisdom to figure out what does and does not apply to them.

Military chaplains don't do that -- why is that not a problem?

I really don't understand how this isn't coming through.

[flyerthom]

Sorry my previous post didn't work ... and I can't get Katch's quote inserted ... oh well
Now the punchline ...
Just wait 'til you meet the Checkpilot!

Don't you have to get by the TSA guy at the pearly gate?

Quote tags -TA

[Nomex Maximus]

Now the punchline ...

Just wait 'til you meet the Checkpilot!

Good one Don-O !!!

[DogCollar]

Don't you have to get by the TSA guy at the pearly gate?

Imagine a frail, elderly fellow, lying in a hospital bed, surrounded by his loved ones.  He is obviously in his final moments.  These are his departing words...
"I'm moving down a long, dark tunnel toward a very bright light...I'm passing through a gate and into the light...there are long lines of people...you have to empty your pockets and take your shoes off...I keep having to show my ID over and over...."
Quote tags -TA

[CAP_truth]

Even congress has a chaplain, the president has pray breakfasts. And I find it comforting to know I am not alone. And someday I can exchange my silver wings or white ones.

[pixelwonk]

quick OT primer on quoting here fellas...

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"Keep CAP Talk beautiful. Please don't litter your quote tags."

[MIKE]

Gonna get like me soon tedda after fixing all those broken tags.