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ACA

Started by Becks, December 11, 2006, 10:41:22 PM

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Becks

I recently was contacted by a member of the American Cadet Alliance who wanted to talk to me about starting a unit in my area.  Does anyone have any input about the ACA?

BBATW

MIKE

You'll probably get better intel over on the CadetStuff forums. 
Mike Johnston

Nathan

Yeah, I've been asked to help set up a unit in Kansas/Missouri, but I'm having a difficult time finding time...
Nathan Scalia

The post beneath this one is a lie.

DNall

Interesting. Are they pushing out from their traditional east/west coast concentrations into the fly-over? There's some real good elements over there, not my cup of tea, but best of luck to them.

Nathan

Quote from: DNall on December 13, 2006, 04:57:39 PM
Interesting. Are they pushing out from their traditional east/west coast concentrations into the fly-over? There's some real good elements over there, not my cup of tea, but best of luck to them.

From what I understand, they're trying to move out. I had never even heard of the ACA until CadetStuff, though, so they're having a hard time catching on here...
Nathan Scalia

The post beneath this one is a lie.

mikeylikey

Now the ACA is getting CAP members to start ACA units.  Between CAP and work and the rest of life, there are only so many hours in a day.
What's up monkeys?

Becks

Quote from: Nathan on December 13, 2006, 05:02:45 PM
Quote from: DNall on December 13, 2006, 04:57:39 PM
Interesting. Are they pushing out from their traditional east/west coast concentrations into the fly-over? There's some real good elements over there, not my cup of tea, but best of luck to them.

From what I understand, they're trying to move out. I had never even heard of the ACA until CadetStuff, though, so they're having a hard time catching on here...
Right, I was just curious if anyone had any opinions regarding the organization or any experience with them.

BBATW

COL Land

JOSEPH M. LAND, SR.
COL, AG, USAC       
Acting Commander              www.goarmycadets.com
Headquarters, U.S. Army Cadet Corps

"ADVENTURE BEGINS HERE!"

JohnKachenmeister

USACC?

United States Army Cadet...Something?

Another former CAP officer

COL Land

United States Army Cadet Corps.

R,
JOSEPH M. LAND, SR.
COL, AG, USAC       
Acting Commander              www.goarmycadets.com
Headquarters, U.S. Army Cadet Corps

"ADVENTURE BEGINS HERE!"

JAFO78

Quote from: CDRLand on October 14, 2007, 04:36:11 AM
Our new recruiting commercial:


Thank you for the information Sir. very nice to see what others are doing.
JAFO

BillB

The ACA seems like it fits real well with CAP I had lunch a couple of years ago with Commander Land and he explained the whole idea of ACA and it's operations. My only proiblem, no matter how far you have gone in CAP professional development or USAF courses you may have taken, you have to start all over with training to be an officer in ACA. I don't doubt that CAC could expand the number of units around the country if there was provision for accepting CAP grade structure for CAP members interested in joining.
ACA has the Navy, Marines and Army cadet corps and did not do anything for an Air Force cadet program since that was covered by CAP. If joint units could be formed of ACA and CAP cadets, it would be the best of both worlds. The cadets could get the better military training through ACA that CAP lacks now-a-days.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

Major Lord

I met with Commander (Now switched to Army Cadets) Land and General Markarian ( CA Military Reserve) in San Luis Obispo a few years ago, with an eye towards starting a California Brigade of the ACA. The ACA has a lot to offer in contrast to CAP, which in many ways is becoming more like Boy Scouts and suffers from severe hypogonadism. At the time, they had no problems accepting me in at my CAP rank ( at the time, Captain).

Although ACA is an older program, they were inactive for a very long time, and primarily focused on the Naval Cadet Program. The Army Cadets are the fastest and most dynamic branch of ACA. I came to understand that in many ways, ACA was still making things up as they go along, and I did not want to jump on that horse at the time. One of my friends, Chris Ross, did get involved and is now the CA commander of the ACA Marines.
There are no Cadet Officers in in ACA. Officers are almost exclusively former military. To become an ACA Cadet, you go through a selection process that runs over a weekend, and  hey decide if you are good enough and tough enough to join. This is very different from CAP. When a Cadet turns 18, he is out the door.

I chose not to get involved for a variety of reasons, but I do have great respect for ACA. We could learn a lot from them. Like all organizations, they can get political, and like CAP, it can be expensive to be a member in a lot of ways.

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: CaptLord on October 14, 2007, 02:11:18 PM
I met with Commander (Now switched to Army Cadets) Land and General Markarian ( CA Military Reserve) in San Luis Obispo a few years ago, with an eye towards starting a California Brigade of the ACA. The ACA has a lot to offer in contrast to CAP, which in many ways is becoming more like Boy Scouts and suffers from severe hypogonadism. At the time, they had no problems accepting me in at my CAP rank ( at the time, Captain).

Although ACA is an older program, they were inactive for a very long time, and primarily focused on the Naval Cadet Program. The Army Cadets are the fastest and most dynamic branch of ACA. I came to understand that in many ways, ACA was still making things up as they go along, and I did not want to jump on that horse at the time. One of my friends, Chris Ross, did get involved and is now the CA commander of the ACA Marines.
There are no Cadet Officers in in ACA. Officers are almost exclusively former military. To become an ACA Cadet, you go through a selection process that runs over a weekend, and  hey decide if you are good enough and tough enough to join. This is very different from CAP. When a Cadet turns 18, he is out the door.

I chose not to get involved for a variety of reasons, but I do have great respect for ACA. We could learn a lot from them. Like all organizations, they can get political, and like CAP, it can be expensive to be a member in a lot of ways.

Major Lord

I looked into it via the internet once, and if I recall correctly, even the former military officers have to start all over through OCS, and up through the officer grades from 2nd lieutenant,  again.  Also, their weight control regs are the same as 600-9 in the Army, and if I could comply with 600-9, I'd have stayed in the Army.

Its a good, professional program, in many ways superior to our own cadet program, but I'm not a candidate for it.

Also, I agree with Capt Lord's assessment of our cadet program, and I'm gonna steal that term, "Hypogonadism," so don't be surprised when you see me post it in reference to the cadet program or other facets of CAP!   
Another former CAP officer

Avery

"Hypogonadism?" I like that in a pilot. I bred one of those, I did!
Avery Loucks Maj, CAP
In transistion to Washington, DC area

COL Land

Let me clarify a bit of misinformation above:

   a.  It is true that ACA does not provide grade-for-grade transition for CAP and other programs.   However, it is incorrect to say that we give no credit for CAP service, as we do.   Frankly, we've had NSCC and CAP officers, oddly enough almost always O4s, who came to ACA at that rank.  To be honest, they simply couldn't provide the leadership, management and professionalism needed at that level within our program.  For some, they had no real officership training, for others we were a bit too "gung-ho" and serious for their level of dedication, and others were truly E4s dressed like O4s and still acted like junior troops.  Our culture is much different (not necessarily better), and our standards are extremely (in the eyes of some, excessively) high; therefore, we have stricter standards and now review each applicant on a case-by-case basis.   Unless an officer is coming to ACA National Headquarters to serve at the national level, or they are a doctor, lawyer, etc., there is no provision to come to ACA above O3.   

    b.  We have had some attempt to "CAPize" the ACA ("...you should have Cadet officers...." "...your 'encampment (we have a 14-day "Annual Training" should be seven days...." "...you need to have USAF Cadets...", etc.).   We are what we are, and have no plans of making major changes anytime soon, except through continued significant growth.  Approximately 40% of the ACA's Officers' Corps are former (or current) CAP officers, who bring a lot of valuable experience, and looked for a "different mousetrap."

    c.  Our Officer Candidate School is very closely patterned after the National Guard's OCS, ensuring that each ACA officer has a solid foundation in officership which allows them to serve with credibility along with active, guard and reserve soldiers.  Our OCS is well outlined in http://www.acacadets.org/PDF/ACAINST1120-2b.pdf , and it not required for former military officers, and can be abbreviated for some CAP officers.  We recently had two CAP Captains, a former Army SGT, a former USMC Cpl, three former Cadet officers, and three civilians complete Phase I or Phase III of OCS.   All did very well, and will eventually make fine officers.   Two "rang out" and left (CAP 1LT and NSCC ENS).   That's ok.   Better during OCS, than after accepting a leadership position that they are not qualified for.  We'd rather have slow growth based on quality, than to have expedited growth and lower our standards.

    d.   Former Cadets are not "out the door" at 18.  If E7 and above, they can remain a Cadet (we cap out at Cadet E9) until age 20, or they can become Officer Candidates.

    e.   I'm not sure if I agree with Major Lord's assessment that "...ACA was still making things up as they go along..."  Our regulations are solid, based on an accumulation of 200+ years of experience at the NHQ level.  We are still small, meaning that regulations and policies can be run through "stupid check" and modified based on the real-time needs of the field.  Granted, when expanding to a new area (such as California), there must be much greater flexibility and creativity in the decision-making process which can be seen as "winging it," I suppose. 

Although we have a Naval heritage which spans almost 100 years (April 10, 1909), our program today is primarily focused on the United States Army Cadets.   We recently had a strong presence at the Association of the United States Army Conference in DC, where ACA personnel met with the Secretary of the Army, the Chief of Staff of the Army, the Sergeant Major of the Army, etc.   We expect legislative language to go before Congress within 90 days which will put us in a very good position as a national organization.   We are primarily an Army program these days, which is difficult for some.   Rest assured, it was difficult for this Sailor of 32 years (starting as a Sea Cadet) to shift to the Army uniform, but it's in the best interests of the program and our Cadets.

In a recent letter, the Assistant Secretary of the Army (Manpower and Reserve Affairs), said "...a robust (Army Cadet Corps) would enhance the Army recruiting mission...the Army will implement regulations which support the (Army Cadet Corps), as authorized by statute."  To prepare for our growth, we have packaged the Army Cadet Corps as clearly being a "career exploration program."   As such, our mission is to give Cadets the most realistic view of service in the military as we can.   This exposure is a very close parallel of the Army's Basic Combat Training (BCT), except that "warrior" skills are not taught.   We're not recruiting, but we give a real-world experience for those young men and women who are looking at the military as a potential career choice.   As you can see, we are very different than the CAP's Cadet program, which is appreciated by some, and difficult to accept for others.   

If you would like any further information about the ACA, please feel free to visit our NHQ website at www.headquarters.militarycadets.org or email me at JMLand@militarycadets.org .   Also, feel free to visit the website to learn more about our National Headquarters and the 77,000 sq. ft. National Cadet Training Center in Dayton, PA.

I appreciate the opportunity to provide clarification about our program.  I also appreciate the work that is done by our brothers and sisters in blue.   Although there are some differences in our programs, our collective bottomline desire is to serve the needs of our country, our communities and our future leaders.   

Respectfully,

JOSEPH M. LAND, SR.
COL, AG, USAC       
Acting Commander              www.goarmycadets.com
Headquarters, U.S. Army Cadet Corps

"ADVENTURE BEGINS HERE!"

mikeylikey

^^ Thank you....that cleared a few questions I had.  I checked out the Dayton School website you have.  Good Job!  Are you expanding in PA at all?
What's up monkeys?

COL Land

Yes, Dayton, Pittsburgh, Willow Grove and potentially, Fort Indiantown Gap.

R,
JOSEPH M. LAND, SR.
COL, AG, USAC       
Acting Commander              www.goarmycadets.com
Headquarters, U.S. Army Cadet Corps

"ADVENTURE BEGINS HERE!"

stillamarine

How do I find if there is any unit in my area? (Florida Panhandle)
Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com

mikeylikey

Quote from: stillamarine on October 18, 2007, 09:56:07 PM
How do I find if there is any unit in my area? (Florida Panhandle)

See thats the thing.  There is no real database on line to find a local ACA unit.  We can fill out the request info form, but I like to do my own research sometimes!
What's up monkeys?

COL Land

Quote from: mikeylikey on October 18, 2007, 09:58:00 PM
See thats the thing.  There is no real database on line to find a local ACA unit.  We can fill out the request info form, but I like to do my own research sometimes!

That's true, no unit locater.   In part, because we are somewhat IT-challenged (or more accurately, IT-overloaded), and in part, because there are so many units in the formation process it's hard to keep up.   Any Web-Gods out there?   I'd be glad to chat! ;)

As for the Panhandle, I have a unit which started at Fort Walton Beach, but moved up to Fort Rucker due to our drill format (one weekend a month).   If you wand the CO's contact info, PM me.

R,
JOSEPH M. LAND, SR.
COL, AG, USAC       
Acting Commander              www.goarmycadets.com
Headquarters, U.S. Army Cadet Corps

"ADVENTURE BEGINS HERE!"

Larry Mangum

Are there units in Washington state?
Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
DCS, Operations
SWR-SWR-001

pixelwonk

Ninne... er, that IT guy better get his poop in a group soon and recruit you guys a web designer. :D

Major Lord

CDRLand,

Certainly no offense was intended in regards to the phrase: "making things up" , Perhaps a better way to phrase this is to say that we were all struggling with how we could transition the program to California, and that I personally could not make all the sacrifices required to start an ACA unit from Scratch. Chris Ross has done a fine job for you in this area. I have the utmost respect for ACA and would love to get involved in  your program when I have the time to give it the attention it deserves. I stand by my statement that the CAP Cadet program suffers from hypogonadisim and that we need the influence of ACA to keep us on the right track.

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

COL Land

Quote from: wawgcap on October 18, 2007, 11:50:29 PM
Are there units in Washington state?

Several young people, and even some adults, have shown interest...but, no adults from Washington who are willing to lead the formation of a unit.

R, 
JOSEPH M. LAND, SR.
COL, AG, USAC       
Acting Commander              www.goarmycadets.com
Headquarters, U.S. Army Cadet Corps

"ADVENTURE BEGINS HERE!"

COL Land

Quote from: Major Lord on October 19, 2007, 12:23:45 AM
Certainly no offense was intended in regards to the phrase: "making things up" (snip) ...I stand by my statement that the CAP Cadet program suffers from hypogonadisim and that we need the influence of ACA to keep us on the right track.

No problem, and no offense taken, at all.   We're glad to set the standard!   ;D

Hooah!

R,

JOSEPH M. LAND, SR.
COL, AG, USAC       
Acting Commander              www.goarmycadets.com
Headquarters, U.S. Army Cadet Corps

"ADVENTURE BEGINS HERE!"

PHall

Quote from: LTC Land on October 18, 2007, 11:47:03 PMAny Web-Gods out there?   I'd be glad to chat! ;)

You have two of them already. Captains Ninness and Stanford.
Just don't tell them who ratted them out! ;)

COL Land

Quote from: PHall on October 19, 2007, 01:50:12 AM
Quote from: LTC Land on October 18, 2007, 11:47:03 PMAny Web-Gods out there?   I'd be glad to chat! ;)

You have two of them already. Captains Ninness and Stanford.
Just don't tell them who ratted them out! ;)

The "Captains Duo" are both heavily involved in Program Development (we have some great training materials, especially our leadership programming), so they've dodged the "Web-God" bullet.   I have to fine someone with the time, talent, desire and passion (I know, asking a lot) to do the job right.   

For an example of our IT successes, feel free to take a look at http://www.cadtrak.acacadets.org/manual/  .   

R,
JOSEPH M. LAND, SR.
COL, AG, USAC       
Acting Commander              www.goarmycadets.com
Headquarters, U.S. Army Cadet Corps

"ADVENTURE BEGINS HERE!"

sandman

I'm impressed with the program overall. After having a bit of a PM chat with LTC Land and having a few details cleared up, I think I can say I'm about ready to hang up my CAP blues (ready to retire anyway) and switch over to the ACA.

An interesting note is that the Naval Cadet and Marine Cadet program is going into the history books soon as the US Army embraces the ACA Army Cadets as their own cadetting program.

The US Army will be an open field for a cadet program. Ground pounding will be an obvious part of the program and who's to say that a ground SAR program couldn't become a reality?

The US Army has a fantastic aviation component and O-rides could be interesting; who's to say that an ACA cadet couldn't ride in USAF equipment? That's what the USAF does is gives rides to the US Army to get them into battle!

The US Army also has a large maritime component. Who's to say that an Army Cadet couldn't earn a "surface warfare" qualification or take an "O-ride" on a US Army ship (or Navy, USCG, etc)?

The US Army Corps of Engineers has such a great presence throughout the U.S. with a large component of their employees as civilians, who's to say that MOU's couldn't be struck to allow ACA Army Cadets to participate in studying and saving "the environment"? What Birkenstock wearing parent wouldn't like that (especially noting that most of the employees are civilians and scientists)?

Could the Army Cadets outpace the CAP (or for that matter, the USNSCC or Young Marines)? Hard to tell. It would depend a great deal on the amount of funding received from the US Army and more importantly.....finding adult leadership willing to take on such a project.

Bling. Yes our favorite subject. I think the ACA has it good with metal rank, etc. I would like to see the development of an alternative uniform for "fuzzies" and those of us "out of standards" that is much more than a polo shirt/slacks combo. Hopefully a "BDU" type uniform for the aforementioned people could be developed soon.

Anyway, just had to chime in. I look forward to the further success of the ACA!

v/r
LT
(former US Army medical NCO)
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command

RiverAux

No, the limiting factor is the Army's interest in taking on liability for using them in an "operational" fashion.  CAP and the AF have a pretty large infrastructure associated with using cadets in that fashion that the Army would have to develop.  Could it be done?  Sure, but will it?  Keep in mind that some changes in federal laws would be necessary to do much of anything. 

Personally, I would be a bit hesitant to make any switch unless there were some concrete moves by the Army along these lines.  Until then they're just rumors. 

If I were the Army I would be very reluctant to set up another CAP-like situation wherein they did not have total control of the program.

sandman

Quote from: RiverAux on December 09, 2007, 10:12:44 PM
No, the limiting factor is the Army's interest in taking on liability for using them in an "operational" fashion.  CAP and the AF have a pretty large infrastructure associated with using cadets in that fashion that the Army would have to develop.  Could it be done?  Sure, but will it?  Keep in mind that some changes in federal laws would be necessary to do much of anything. 

Agreed. That is a component of funding.
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command

RiverAux

After a little scouting on the ACA web site, it does appear that they are moving the direction you're talking about http://www.acacadets.org/PDF/acanote0705.pdf but apparently more twoards a Young Marines-USMC, Naval Sea Cadets-USN relationship rather than a CAP-AF relationship. 

sandman

Quote from: RiverAux on December 09, 2007, 10:22:14 PM
After a little scouting on the ACA web site, it does appear that they are moving the direction you're talking about http://www.acacadets.org/PDF/acanote0705.pdf but apparently more twoards a Young Marines-USMC, Naval Sea Cadets-USN relationship rather than a CAP-AF relationship. 

Negative Sir,

The Navy and Marine components of the ACA are being disestablished and will only have one component...The US Army!
LTC Land could probably provide more info as to the time frame for the change to an Army only cadet structure but I understand it will happen sometime early in 2008.

v/r
LT
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command

RiverAux

I meant that what was left was going to have the same sort of relationship with the Army as those other organizations have with "their" services rather than the somewhat more direct control AF has over CAP.

mikeylikey

Interesting.  I have never heard of any of this before.  The Army (United Stated Army) has said anything about supporting a Cadet Program like this? 

They already have the Largest Cadet Program in the Country.....JROTC and ROTC.  They completely controll it.

On a side note USACC.....is an acronym already used by US Army Cadet Command, part of Accessions Command at Ft Knox.  If this does go through, I wonder if they will be the lead organization.  They already run the JROTC and ROTC programs.
What's up monkeys?

RiverAux

They've apparently only got about 30 units according to their web page so I'm not surprised that you haven't heard of them.  Of course, the Young Marines were about that small not long ago and they're exploded. 

You do wonder why the Army would want to do this since as you said, they've already got a huge program. 

mikeylikey

I searched their site and could find nothing about creating a new partnership with the Army.  Unless they are holding off on announcing it, I will wait and see.  UNLESS someone here has some insight.
What's up monkeys?

sandman

Quote from: RiverAux on December 09, 2007, 10:51:49 PM
They've apparently only got about 30 units according to their web page so I'm not surprised that you haven't heard of them.  Of course, the Young Marines were about that small not long ago and they're exploded. 

You do wonder why the Army would want to do this since as you said, they've already got a huge program. 

Well, I have been given some interesting information, and of course cannot pass it on at this time. Look for the ACA to start increasing in force and structure within the next few years not in competition with JROTC and ROTC, but as a seperate community based cadet program. Remember the limitations that JROTC and ROTC have such as kowtowing to the school board, limitations of training, and geographical limitations (many schools do not have such a program).
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command

mikeylikey

Quote from: sandman on December 09, 2007, 11:08:44 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on December 09, 2007, 10:51:49 PM
They've apparently only got about 30 units according to their web page so I'm not surprised that you haven't heard of them.  Of course, the Young Marines were about that small not long ago and they're exploded. 

You do wonder why the Army would want to do this since as you said, they've already got a huge program. 

Well, I have been given some interesting information, and of course cannot pass it on at this time. Look for the ACA to start increasing in force and structure within the next few years not in competition with JROTC and ROTC, but as a seperate community based cadet program. Remember the limitations that JROTC and ROTC have such as kowtowing to the school board, limitations of training, and geographical limitations (many schools do not have such a program).

Thanks!  This is like saying "I know something you don't know".  QUESTION......will we eventually have something to read in the near future.  I am very interested now. 
What's up monkeys?

JohnKachenmeister

The Army is struggling to meet its recruitment goals, so I think its a good move to create a long-term program to support the Army with motivated high-school age youth.

The Air Corps started the CAP cadet program for the same reasons in World War II, when the Air Corps was carrying the lion's share of the overseas combat, and suffering the lion's share of casualties as a result.
Another former CAP officer

RiverAux

Quote from: mikeylikey on December 09, 2007, 11:03:43 PM
I searched their site and could find nothing about creating a new partnership with the Army.  Unless they are holding off on announcing it, I will wait and see.  UNLESS someone here has some insight.
look at the document I posted.

BillB

The early CAP ID cards were with ARMY superimposed on the card. The CAP cadet program was an Army Air Corp program, so the Army has had the experience of a cadet program, broadly based geographically which JROTC isn't.
Expanding the ACA program appears to have been slow due to lack of adults interested in the program, and also their requirements for promotions to ACA officer status. No matter what you have accomplished in CAP even through Level 5, it doesn't count for ACA. You still have to go through their officer training program.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

RiverAux

JROTC isn't broadly geographically based?  They've got about 1600 units.

BillB

1600 out of how many high schools in th country??? There are large areas of Florida for example that have no army JROTC. I think there are more CAP Squadrons than Army JROTC nationally.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

RiverAux

#44
Nope, we've only got 1105 cadet or composite squadrons.  There are 273,000 Army JROTC cadets compared to about 24000 CAP cadets. 

Heck, in Florida alone there are 141 JROTC units compared to 78 CAP cadet or composite squadrons.

Data based on Army JROTC web site and recent CAPWATCH downloads. 

Major Carrales

I, too, had never heard of the ACA before I visited CADETSTUFF. 

I could imagine, based on what I know of them from teh web and testimony that in some alternate reality where they got to me before CAP, I would so be involved in that. 

I can, however, empathize with starting new units in areas where there has never been any exposure to the organization with little resources.  It is a challenge.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Stonewall

I was asked to help start a unit when I was in DC and then here in FL.  Knowing how much time and effort goes into running a successful CAP squadron, I can only imagine how much it would take to learn about a new program while creating a new unit.

Like others, if ACA would have gotten to me before CAP, I surely would have joined.  When I was in the Army I wore blue part-time in CAP.  Now that I'm in the Air Guard, it would be ironic if I wore green part-time in ACA.

All the respect in the world to ACA, but there's something about CAP, as aggravating as it can be, that I love.  Perhaps it's the "real world" missions.

Hats off to ACA.
Serving since 1987.

RiverAux

I think there is a little bit of allure associated with starting a new program from scratch without anywhere near the oversight and regulations associated with a mature program like CAP.  On the other hand, CAP gets a lot of stuff the others don't. 

JohnKachenmeister

I considered the ACA, but the Army hates people with a "Girth" problem even more than the Air Force does.  That includes the ACA.
Another former CAP officer

NIN

Quote from: sandman on December 09, 2007, 11:08:44 PM
Well, I have been given some interesting information, and of course cannot pass it on at this time. Look for the ACA to start increasing in force and structure within the next few years not in competition with JROTC and ROTC, but as a seperate community based cadet program. Remember the limitations that JROTC and ROTC have such as kowtowing to the school board, limitations of training, and geographical limitations (many schools do not have such a program).

Speaking as one of the "Captain-ic Duo" (hahah..I just made that up..<GRIN>), and without disclosing anything that's not already been said either on CadetStuff, to other members, or to the Army, let me chime in a little here.

For the last two years, I've gone with LTC Land and others to the Association of the United States Army's Annual Meeting in Washington DC.  Let me tell you, if you've never been, you should go.  Its like Disney meets Rambo x 100.  Wow.

But more importantly than just the wow factor of the convention hall floor, there is the opportunity to meet and greet with literally hundreds of senior Army leaders.  Last year I met Secretary of the Army Dr. Francis Harvey, Chief of Staff of the Army Gen Schoomaker, and SMA Kenneth Preston, as well as the Commanding General of TRADOC, the Commanding General of Cadet Command, the Commanding General of the Army Accession Command and a whole BUNCH of other general officers.  As I told a CAP comrade: "I talked to more darn generals in 2 1/2 days than I've ever even seen in 25 YEARS in a CAP uniform.." 

(Funny aside: In the receiving line for the President's Reception on Monday night, the Army IG was musing about his missing aide. He said "Hey, there, Captain, you want to be the Aide for the IG?" I said "Gosh, General, love the offer, but I really don't think I can.." He looked me up and down and said "Hmm, I see your point. Give me 10 minutes with the G-1 and we'll have that part sorted out.  Meanwhile, son, see if you can't snag me another beer, huh?"  We all laughed about that one and his aide showed up right then with the missing beer, so it was a moot point, but gosh, were we having a ball with it.)[/i]

One of the main talking points that always comes up is that the Army has ROTC and JROTC, so why would the Army need *another* cadet program?

"You know, General, that's a great question.  Did you know that JROTC is only available to about 4 1/2% of the entire high school population of the United States?  What about the other 95% of high school students who are not lucky enough to have JROTC in their school? How can we serve that population of students?  The ACA is a community-based cadet program, unlike JROTC, which is strictly school-based.  We're centered around entire geographic areas, not just one high school.  You familiar with Civil Air Patrol, General, the Air Force's community-based cadet program?  Well, just like CAP units, ACA units can be located in communities where there is support for the program, not just in a specific school."

Once you explain the concept of community-based versus high school-based cadet programs, the light generally goes on.

"You mean we don't have a cadet program like this already?"

"No, General, the Army does not have an officially sanctioned and supported cadet program like the ACA's. Yet."

I went on for 2 1/2 days with about 2 dozen general officers like that. 

This year, same thing.  Its amazing watching the light go on when general officers realize that JROTC, even if they doubled its funding and size, is not achieving the same kinds of market penetrations that the ACA, with appropriate funding and support, could.

I could go on, but I think you get the point.

And John, its not so much a "hate" thing, but its just your typical standards thing. Gotta draw the line someplace and unfortunately, some folks fall on the other side of the line.   Unlike CAP, however, the ACA's standards are only 5% higher than the parent service.  That makes it tough.


NIN
CPT, SC, USACC
(associated "Hooah" quotes here)







Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

NIN

Did I mention that the ACA lets us jump out of airplanes?  Sort of...

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

sandman

Quote from: NIN on December 10, 2007, 05:00:39 AM
Did I mention that the ACA lets us jump out of airplanes?  Sort of...



You did now!

But you didn't mention the scuba training.....

/r
LT
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command

capchiro

A couple of questions.  Does the ACA have a good cadet protection program like CAP??  Being a more aggressive program, how do their hazing-harassment regs compare to ours??  Are they allowed to scream at their cadets more, OCS style??  TIA.
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

NIN

Quote from: capchiro on December 10, 2007, 06:20:11 PM
A couple of questions.  Does the ACA have a good cadet protection program like CAP??  Being a more aggressive program, how do their hazing-harassment regs compare to ours??  Are they allowed to scream at their cadets more, OCS style??  TIA.

The ACA's cadet protection policy is similar to CAP's (2-deep leadership, reporting requirements, etc)

However, we have a slightly different take on discipline and the constructive use of on-the-spot corrections and IPT (incentive physical training). IPT is allowed to a point and not just by anybody who has a set of stripes on his or her sleeve.

(Mind you, the IPT policy is still in a draft form, so for me to refer to it would be counterproductive, but understand that our draft IPT policy effectively mirrors the TRADOC IPT policy for trainees, substituting "troop handlers" for "drill sergeants" found in the original TRADOC Regulation 350-6. That's essentially what was taught to the troop handlers during the blocks of instruction they received on the effective use of IPT.)

Not to derail this into a "Pushups = BAD!" kind of thing, remember that the purpose behind any kind of IPT should be to "obtain the individual's full & undivided attention by forcing them, for a few seconds at least, to pay attention to a brief task that YOU dictate.."

Its an attention-getter, really. Not much more.

If you're using it as more than just a simple "hey, pay attention" kind of thing, you're doing it wrong.

"Smoking" a guy isn't training, its cruelty.

(that having been said, have I doled out pushups to cadets? Sure have.  Fall asleep in my class?  Knock out five pushups, troop, and get back up. Lets hope that got the blood flowing a little, eh?   Not the whole class, not 100 pushups.  Just a brief attention getter.  It helps having been IPT'd by professionals for all the right reasons, and occasionally the wrong reasons, to better know the best time to use that particular tool or when its time to use another tool.  As I always say, you need to have more than one tool in your leadership toolbox.  Cadet leaders who solely revert to IPT as their only method of corrective training or discipline don't last long as cadet leaders.)

EDIT: I don't know so much if I would call it "screaming" versus "speaking at a loud volume."  I once heard a drill sergeant say "I don't yell.  I merely speak in a tone that ensures that I will not be misunderstood, misheard or ignored."  If I saw some c/SSG go berserk and start screaming at his cadets, spittle flying in all directions, etc, there would be a pretty quick "OK, time out Staff Sergeant, come over here with me for a minute" kind of thing. You can convey what you need to by using your diaphragm and projection, versus just going all nutty on someone and screaming at the top of your lungs.  There is a difference.





Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

NIN

Quote from: sandman on December 10, 2007, 05:54:04 PM
But you didn't mention the scuba training.....

That's cuz people tend to float.

:)

It ain't real serious unless you can die from massive internal trauma.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

COL Land

#55
Quote from: sandman on December 09, 2007, 11:08:44 PM
Well, I have been given some interesting information, and of course cannot pass it on at this time. Look for the ACA to start increasing in force and structure within the next few years not in competition with JROTC and ROTC, but as a separate community based cadet program. Remember the limitations that JROTC and ROTC have such as kowtowing to the school board, limitations of training, and geographical limitations (many schools do not have such a program).

Let me share a bit of the information that LT C. above is making reference to:

  a.  ACA NHQ Staff, with the assistance of the ACA Board of Advisors, has worked tirelessly towards the nationwide implementation of the U.S. Army Cadet Corps, with a constant focus on "doing the job right."  Most of us have served for decades with other programs, and have learned the various strengths and shortcomings of the other programs.   We're intentionally remained small, until we are able to fully "pull the trigger," so to speak.  As a result, our standards are high and our program is challenging, yet well protected by a solid Cadet Protection Policy and continuous focus on Risk Management.

  b.  Watch out for the U.S. Army Cadet Corps Authorization Act to be introduced to Congress during the 2nd qtr of this FY.   That Act will include appropriate changes to Federal Law, including Titles 10, 32 and 36, as well as an amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008.   These changes will provide full support of the Army Cadet Corps.  The language has been in development and continued revision since August of this year and is expected to be in final form next week.   In fact, a meeting is being held tomorrow morning in DC to work out the final details.

  c.  Upon completion of the above, ACA NHQ will draft the applicable Army Regulation, in conjunction with the office of the Assistant Secretary of the Army (Manpower and Reserve Affairs).  This ensures that we have highest-level oversight and support, bringing in the collective support of the "three Armies"  ("big Army," Guard and Reserves).

   d.  Remember, we are intentionally packaged as a Army-oriented "career-exploration" program, setting us apart from JROTC (in fact, our programming is more aligned with the college-level ROTC, rather than the citizenship programming of JROTC).  This is very appealing to those who are faced with the challenges of attracting young people to the Army.  Be clear, we do not actively recruit for the Army, nor will we permit direct recruitment of our Cadets; however, much like the Naval Sea Cadets, we offer an extremely realistic and challenging program for young people so that they can make their own educated decisions.   With this in mind, the Assistant Secretary of the Army (Manpower and Reserve Affairs) recently wrote to a member of Congress, "...a robust (Army Cadet Corps) would enhance the Army recruiting mission...accordingly I have no objection with legislation which permits the Army to support the (Army Cadet Corps).  Should Congress enact statutory authority and provide funding allowing support to the Army Cadet Corps, the Army will implement regulations to support the (Army Cadet Corps), as authorized by statute."  It has taken dozens of meetings and several years to secure this level of commitment for support once the laws have been passed.

   e.  We have recruited an impressive gathering of military leaders to serve as the ACA Board of Advisors.   With MG(CA) Ron Markarian as the chairman, the other members include:

        FREDERICK C. WEYAND
        General (Retired)
        United States Army
        Former Chief of Staff, United States Army

        JAMES W. COMSTOCK
        Major General (Retired)
        United States Army Reserve

        PETER J. GRAVETT
        Major General (Retired)
        United States Army

        RONALD O. HARRISON
        Major General (Retired)
        Florida Army National Guard

        HAROLD TIMBOE, MD
        Major General (Retired)
        United States Army
        Former Commanding General, Walter Reed Army Hospital

        WILLIAM H. WADE, II
        Major General
        California Army National Guard
        Adjutant General, State of California

        ELI WISHART
        Major General (Retired)
        South Carolina State Guard

        JAY VARGAS
        Colonel (Retired)
        United States Marine Corps
        Medal of Honor Recipient

        ANDRE N. COULOMBE
        Colonel, Special Forces
        United States Army Reserve

        LARRY HOLLAND
        Command Sergeant Major (Retired)
        United States Army
        Former Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Reserve Affairs
   
    f.  There are a number of initiatives which will be implemented which - based on experiences with other programs, as well as our own business ventures - are intended to make commanding and operating an Army Cadet Corps unit less difficult, and better supported.   Of course, all this is based on funding, which is dependent on Congress.  Further, we are mindful of the value of having a "mission" which permits use of the skills which are learned as a Cadet.   We are working with the State Guard Association, and have authorized the award and wear of the MEMS badge.   Our most recent example of having ACA in a Disaster Relief situation can be found at:  http://www.redcross.org/article/0,1072,0_312_6980,00.html .

    g.  As mentioned by CPT Ninness, we have had face-to-face meeting with all levels of the Army, including formal Office Calls with leaders within Accessions Command, U.S. Army Recruiting Command, the National Guard Bureau, the Chief of the Army Reserve (including a meeting this afternoon with the Deputy Chief of the Army Reserve), Association of the United States Army, members of Congress and many others.   Remember, there are NO full-time employees in ACA, so all of this has been done by my team of "non-paid professionals" (we do not use the word "volunteer"...it's a cultural thing).   

Just this past weekend, we sent out press releases and formation information to ten Army Forts across the southeast (our area of focus for 2nd Qtr, FY-08).   I will be meeting with the leadership of the Texas State Guard next month and had a meeting today with the PAO of Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio.   Fortunately, as a DoD consultant, I travel throughout the country in my paying job, giving me some flexibility to carry out the ACA message.  Our growth will continue to be slow, as we must maintain the quality standards of our program.   We have an Officer Candidate class convening later this month at Fort Indiantown Gap, PA.   While it is true that no one steps into ACA without training - contrary to the above - we do recognize past military and Cadetting experience in our commissioning process.

The above should make it clear that we have been heading towards an all-Army focus for quite awhile.   Rest assured, entering the world of "Hooah!" is no small change for this ol' Sailor.  But, Cadetting is not about the adults, it's about the Cadets.   Our country has long needed an Army-oriented Community-based Cadet Corps, similar to programs offered for young people interested in the Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force.  I will especially mourn the loss of the Naval Cadets, as we pre-date the Naval Sea Cadets by nearly 50 years.   But, this is a business decision, and one that is based on serving the needs of young people, rather than personal needs and egos.   Our program will be 100 years old on 10 Apr 09, which will be the beginning of a brand new chapter in ACA's history.   On 12 Apr 08, COL C. R. Tornow, our National Commander, will be promoted to Brigidair General, U.S. Army Cadet Corps, as approved by the Board of Advisors.   I will pin on COL on that date as well.   The ceremony will be in Pittsburgh, PA, and any member of the Cadetting community is invited to join us.

These are exciting days for our program.   There is much more than the above; however, I have to keep some information in-house, until we have firm answers on some issues, including a desire for formal cooperation between the ACA and CAP.   More as we know it!

Respectfully,
JOSEPH M. LAND, SR.
COL, AG, USAC       
Acting Commander              www.goarmycadets.com
Headquarters, U.S. Army Cadet Corps

"ADVENTURE BEGINS HERE!"

COL Land

Quote from: capchiro on December 10, 2007, 06:20:11 PM
A couple of questions.  Does the ACA have a good cadet protection program like CAP??  Being a more aggressive program, how do their hazing-harassment regs compare to ours??  Are they allowed to scream at their cadets more, OCS style??

Colonel Siegrist:

Our Cadet Protection policies can be found at:   http://www.acacadets.org/PDF/ACAINST5370-4A.pdf

Respectfully,

JOSEPH M. LAND, SR.
COL, AG, USAC       
Acting Commander              www.goarmycadets.com
Headquarters, U.S. Army Cadet Corps

"ADVENTURE BEGINS HERE!"

mikeylikey

LTC Land.  When the Legislation is formalized and goes to session, will you post a link for all of us to read.  I am very interested now.  Also, I will be at "the Gap" later this month for Cadet Command, if you could PM, I would like the opportunity to speak with someone there about the program.
What's up monkeys?

COL Land

#58
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 11, 2007, 07:48:28 AM
LTC Land.  When the Legislation is formalized and goes to session, will you post a link for all of us to read.  I am very interested now.  Also, I will be at "the Gap" later this month for Cadet Command, if you could PM, I would like the opportunity to speak with someone there about the program.

Certainly.   We have a bit of "tweeking" to do, but it's just about ready for introduction to Congress.   Once that occurs, we will post the language online, as well as reach out to the "friends of ACA" and ask that a template letter be sent to lawmakers.   

I will be at FIG beginning 27 or 28 Dec and will be there until 4 Jan.   Please feel free to contact me at 866-G0-CADETS, Ext 807 and we'll schedule an appointment to meet.

Regards,

JOSEPH M. LAND, SR.
COL, AG, USAC       
Acting Commander              www.goarmycadets.com
Headquarters, U.S. Army Cadet Corps

"ADVENTURE BEGINS HERE!"

RiverAux

Anyone counting on the State Guard Association for any real assistance is grabbing for a mighty thin reed. 

COL Land

I will be unexpectedly in Sacramento this weekend, with a meeting with the California TAG on Monday morning.  I also plan to meet with some JROTC folks on Monday afternoon in the San Francisco area regarding their situation.   

If there are any adults who would like to meet to chat about ACA while I'm in the area, feel free to contact me by PM at JMLand@militarycadets.org or at 866-GO CADETS, Ext 807.   

Respectfully,
JOSEPH M. LAND, SR.
COL, AG, USAC       
Acting Commander              www.goarmycadets.com
Headquarters, U.S. Army Cadet Corps

"ADVENTURE BEGINS HERE!"

COL Land

We just posted several updates to our "Blog" at www.headquarters.militarycadets.org .

Respectfully,
JOSEPH M. LAND, SR.
COL, AG, USAC       
Acting Commander              www.goarmycadets.com
Headquarters, U.S. Army Cadet Corps

"ADVENTURE BEGINS HERE!"

Major Carrales

Quote from: LTC Land on December 16, 2007, 07:50:48 PM
We just posted several updates to our "Blog" at www.headquarters.militarycadets.org .

Respectfully,

LTC Land, if I may be so bold, I must admit that your organization peaks my interests.  While I am somewhat greatly busy with CAP at the moment and would likely not have the time to join or participate actively in ACA, I should like to support its efforts if it ever comes to South Texas.

But please, could you post your best points for joining such an organization.  In other words, your best speil for ACA.  I admit I need education on the subject and I think you are the best to provide it.

I have read the information on line, however, I want a member's perspective.  If you would like, I could take said post and place it in my weekly newsletter.

"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

JAFO78

LTC Land congrats on your accomplishments of your new HQ building.
JAFO

DrJbdm

I had the chance to meet with LTC Land here in Austin a couple of days ago, we took a short tour thru Camp Mabry which is the home of the Texas National Guard Headquarters. We also sat down and talked for a few hours about the ACA. I found LTC Land to be a gentleman and a sharp officer.  he offered several bits of insight into why the ACA is really flourishing while CAP has really become pretty stagnant. I have to admit I really like what they are doing and how closely they have aligned with the Army. Their uniforms are meeting the minimum standards of USC title 10 that governs distinctiveness, however they do not go to the extreme like CAP does, that actually helps them fit in better with the AD, Res & NG troops. they also have an ID that is very close to a regular Army CAC card.

The ACA does alot of things that I wish CAP had the guts to do. it would make for a much better program for us in my opinion. He's coming back to Camp Mabry in Jan to meet with the leadership of the Texas State Guard, He and I both agreed that Camp Mabry is an ideal place for the ACA to grow in Texas. He and I have also made plans to get together when he arrives back in Austin.

It's my opinion that CAP needs to take a good hard look at how the ACA is set up as far as Officers are concerned. not everyone in the ACA is an officer, only those who have been selected to attend OCS and have graduated from the three phase program are commissioned as an officer. While there is a provision in their regulations where they could waive phase 1 & 2 in OCS for certain qualified people there is no provision to waive the 8 day in-resident phase 3 for anyone, including those selected for a direct commission. (Doctors, Nurses, chaplains ,ect)  

RiverAux

Flourishing is not a word I'd use to describe the ACA.  They've only got about 30 units according to their web site.  Barely hanging on would probably be a more accurate description. 

NIN

Quote from: RiverAux on December 17, 2007, 12:29:59 AM
Flourishing is not a word I'd use to describe the ACA.  They've only got about 30 units according to their web site.  Barely hanging on would probably be a more accurate description. 

That depends on where you position yourself to see the movement..

The ACA is *growing* (albeit slowly, at the present). Is CAP? Hardly.  The ACA did have a "contraction" back in the 1970s that it barely recovered from.  Considering that for the majority of its 98 year existence the organization was primarily based in the Northeast, 30 units spread around the country is actually pretty good.

We'd prefer it was more, and that will come in due time.





Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Major Carrales

Careful there, Lt Col, Sir.

I detect here the possibility of "tension" between "US" and "THEM" as pointed out by your comment "The ACA is *growing* (albeit slowly, at the present). Is CAP? Hardly" and the thread that prompted that comment.

When I first started doing CAP cadets in Kingsville, people saw me as a threat to the Army JROTC program.  The Lt Col in charge there is a friend of mine, and it was assumed that there would be conflict.  There was not.  Simply because CAP offcers things that  Army JROTC does not and Army JROTC offers things CAP does not.

As it turned out, CAP cadets also enrolled in Army JROTC seem to get the best of both worlds.

CAP and ACA must do the same thing.  Pity everyone seems "defensive" of their programs to even consider that possibility of cooperation, OFFICIAL COOPERATON (call that yelling if you wish, but I capitalize to stress concepts.)

Now, are we going to help these people or not?

"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

RiverAux

Like it or not, CAP IS in competition with JROTC, Young Marines, Naval Sea Cadets, and the ACA for those youths interested in the military, or some aspects of the military.  This isn't any different than the Armed Forces competing over potential recruits.

Are there still places out there not served by any military cadet program?  Sure, but I'd bet that a high percentage of cities over 10,000 has at least one of these programs active and I'm sure every major metropolitan area does. 

Competition for recruits, publicity, etc. doesn't have to be nasty.  In any case you can't assume that a youth who joins ACA would have joined CAP if JROTC wasn't there, so it is not a zero-sum game. 

So, to answer you question, no we should not be helping ACA.  We don't need to try to destroy them, but it isn't our job to aid them. 


jb512

I was snooping around the ACA website and found their application/commissioning process.  I really like the way they set their standards and have people apply: http://www.acacadets.org/resinst.htm

Doesn't look like a whole lot of rubber stamping goes on, and they have a strong emphasis on prior military.

ddelaney103

What we should be concerned about is if potential Cadets are getting to the right organization.

We're better off telling them, "we might not be the best fit based on your interests - have you considered talking to X?" where X=some other org, then ending up with Cadets who attrit 2 months down the road.

jb512

Quote from: RiverAux on December 17, 2007, 01:07:32 AM
Like it or not, CAP IS in competition with JROTC, Young Marines, Naval Sea Cadets, and the ACA for those youths interested in the military, or some aspects of the military.  This isn't any different than the Armed Forces competing over potential recruits.

Very true.  When I was a kid I was very involved in CAP until we moved.  I found a different unit, but the AFJROTC program at my new high school had much more to offer at the time and I lost interest in CAP.

Major Lord

In many ways, ACA offers a Cadet Program that is superior to CAP. We are constantly arguing for our limitations, while ACA is looking for growth and dynamism. Being an advocate of free market forces, I think that ACA may shame CAP into becoming a better program!

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

mikeylikey

I have a funny feeling that we are going to see ACA expand exponentially the next few years. 

This is a program the Army would most likely pick up in an instant.  They have (J)ROTC already, but investing in another youth program would be hugely beneficial for them. 

What's up monkeys?

RiverAux

If they actually start getting a lot of strong Army support in the form of money, they do have a large potential to expand.  We saw the same thing with the Young Marines in recent times.  I'm not denying that there is a "market" out there for an Army-based program. 

But, the advantage CAP has over the other ones and most likely the ACA is our capability to use cadets as part of ES missions.  Unless they start doing that, we still have a major potential edge over all the others.  Granted, not all units use their cadets in ES, but where they do, and where there are a lot of ES missions for them, we will continue to remain in a strong position. 

COL Land

#75
In response to the above:

ACA'S SHORCOMINGS:


Note:  Most of these items are well known within our program and are being addressed.

     *  Size.   Contrary to the above, we are not "barely hanging on."  In fact, we've been very conservative about our growth, in preparation for a full-scale roll-out.   We want to be sure that we're ready for the growth that will occur upon dissemination of the AR which outlines support.  In 1993, the Young Marines received Marine Corps Order 5000.20 which provided formal Marine Corps recognition and support to the program which had been in operation for 35+ years. The Young Marines have experienced a significant growth since that point in their history.  Of note, however, is that the initial growth in the first two years subsequent to the release of MCO 5000.20 only showed a net increase of less than 20 units. This was reportedly due to a constant gain and loss of units due to the program's inability to accommodate rapid growth. In response, ACA National Headquarters has spent the past five years developing the proper infrastructure to accommodate a steady growth of the program. 

     *  Lack of Full-time Staff.   This is both a "Pro" and a "Con."  Everyone at ACA NHQ is certainly working with the program because of a personal belief in what we do, and a desire to have a positive impact on young people.  No one is in this for the money!  We anticipate full-time staff online within 24 months.

     *  Rigid Standards.   For us, this is a Pro; however, others find that we are too focused on standardization and quality.   Further, our regulations are in place to regulate, not serve as a "guideline" as I've heard so many times.   

     *  Limited Training Sites.   We conduct one Annual Training program, with all personnel coming "to the mountain" (wherever that may be from year to year).   This is challenging and will be eventually resolved as we have sufficient manpower across the country to justify additional AT locations.       

     *  No Operational Mission.   For some, this is a major con.   For others, it prevents us from getting into "mission creep."  Our mission is:

"To instill in young Americans, through a multi-faceted Cadet program which is physically and mentally challenging and rewarding, the importance of national pride, service to others, and maintaining a drug-free and gang-free lifestyle."

     *  No "insta-Lts".  We see this is a major Pro.   Our OCS program is well received within the Army, and sends a strong message that we won't have ACA officers serving in the program who are untrained or unqualified.   As a result, we have been very well received by Army leadership at all levels.  Contrary to what I've read here a couple of times, we do give credit for military, Cadetting and other professional experience.

     *  Not everyone will become an officer.   Again, we see this is a pro.  Not to be elitist, but to ensure that there is consistency in the qualifications of all applicants.   Do some "nut jobs" get in?   Sure, only so much can be accomplished during interviews.   However, the requirement for OCS - frankly - screens out alot of the folks who just want to play dress up.   BTW - much of our program is very closely patterned after the officer requirements for the UK and Canada.   

     *  No formal U.S. Army regulations supporting the program.  Obviously, that is well in the works; however, the U. S. Army Cadet Corps Authorization Act must be passed before this occurs.   In the meantime, we get most of the training support that we need as a Community-based Organization.

ACA'S STRENGTHS:


   *  Clear focus on "career exploration" training for Cadets, meaning a realistic, challenging and exciting program which gives young people a first-hand view of military life.   This is what Cadets want when they come to our program.   They want to know "what's it like to be in the Army?"  We show them, without crossing the line into combat skills, both the good and the bad of military life.  Also, for clarification, if a young person clearly plans to join the Air Force, we point them towards the CAP.

   *  High standards for the ACA Officers' Corps.   We have patterned our OCS after the Army National Guard's, even awarding college credit upon completion.

   *  Standardization through the Corps.   One Corps, one standard....nationwide.   National Headquarters is driven to provide the tools to take the "pain" off the local unit.   We are creating standardized lesson plans, PowerPoint slides, etc., so that the units don't have to recreate the wheel.  We are ensuring that the tools are fully in place to support the units, but it's difficult doing so without full-time support.   There is relief on the horizon, though, based on some meetings held this past week.

   *  Experienced NHQ leadership.   All of my NHQ staffers, from my boss to the newest member, has a strong background in Cadetting, along with solid professional, academic and military experience.   We've formed and/or commanded very successful units, either within ACA or one of the other programs.

   *  Positioning for great things in the world of Cadetting.   We have gained the interest of a great deal of senior-level Army leadership.  For a small program, we have become very well known in the past three years.   Because we have strategically planned almost every interaction, our reputation is solid.  We are mindful of the value and importance of JROTC within the Army community, while communicating the differences between the two programs.

    *  Everyone has value.   As small as we are, we must tap into the collective talents and motivators of all of our officers and Civilian Instructors.  As a result, regardless of your rank, you can have a positive impact on the future of the program.  For many of our younger officers, this is refreshing, as they feel that their "voice is heard." 

    *  We're willing to try new things and change those policies which don't pass "stupid-check."   The chain of command is short, and we're open to new ideas.   With that said, like any other youth development program, we're constantly mindful of Risk Management.   

    *  We've learned from the past experiences of other organizations.   I have about 350 years of experience within the ACA NHQ ranks.   We're doing everything possible to "do the job right."

    *   Everyone has a place...but, not all as uniformed officers.   I've been told that there are two DoD civilians for every uniformed military member.  Today, civilians serve in a multitude of positions which have historically been filled by uniformed warfighters.   We've adopted the practice of making positive use of Civilian Instructors whenever we can, except in command positions.   We don't force "mom" into becoming a Lieutenant, especially if she's best suited to fill the job as a civilian.   Our Civilian Instructors are valued and serve in many key positions in the organization.

    *  There are no "volunteers" in ACA.   We use the term "non-paid professionals."   Our attitude is that we should be as professional at our mission as our active duty, reserve and guard colleagues are at their missions.  We are not warriors; however, we must be professionals in the area of career development.   

    *  "When senior, you are in charge."  Officer rank is a clear representation of responsibility and authority.   Again, for some outside of ACA, this is disturbing, for others it's refreshing. 

    *  "Hard Core or Out the Door!"   Our people are all "gung-ho."   If they aren't, they really won't fit in.   During AT especially, I literally have to "order" folks to get some sleep...otherwise, they'd work 24/7!   That "fire in the gut" is conveyed to the Cadets and is seen throughout the program. 

    *  It's fun!  The greatest thing about this program is that we still have fun, yet work like dogs.  Our high standards have resulted in a bond among the officers' corps which is unlike anything I've seen in my 30+ years Cadetting.   

That's my pitch.   With that said, I want to make it clear that I post on these various sites in response to inquiries, not to attract others away from CAP to us.   I think you'll find that we do our best to "work and play well together" with just about any organization, and are actually somewhat protective of the other organizations.   In fact, when a CAP officer asks about coming into ACA, one of our first questions is "How would this affect your current command?"  If it looks like their departure would be harmful to their current unit, we won't accept them into our program until they have found a qualified relief.  We don't want to be accused of building our program at the expense of others.   It's not that we're a better mousetrap, just a different one...for some, that's good, for others, it's bad.  YMMV.
JOSEPH M. LAND, SR.
COL, AG, USAC       
Acting Commander              www.goarmycadets.com
Headquarters, U.S. Army Cadet Corps

"ADVENTURE BEGINS HERE!"

flyguy06

Quote from: RiverAux on December 17, 2007, 01:07:32 AM
Like it or not, CAP IS in competition with JROTC, Young Marines, Naval Sea Cadets, and the ACA for those youths interested in the military, or some aspects of the military.  This isn't any different than the Armed Forces competing over potential recruits.

When I was a teenager, I was in JROTC, CAP, and the Boy Scouts all at the same time

NIN

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 17, 2007, 12:55:21 AM
Careful there, Lt Col, Sir.

I detect here the possibility of "tension" between "US" and "THEM" as pointed out by your comment "The ACA is *growing* (albeit slowly, at the present). Is CAP? Hardly" and the thread that prompted that comment.

When I first started doing CAP cadets in Kingsville, people saw me as a threat to the Army JROTC program.  The Lt Col in charge there is a friend of mine, and it was assumed that there would be conflict.  There was not.  Simply because CAP offcers things that  Army JROTC does not and Army JROTC offers things CAP does not.

As it turned out, CAP cadets also enrolled in Army JROTC seem to get the best of both worlds.

CAP and ACA must do the same thing.  Pity everyone seems "defensive" of their programs to even consider that possibility of cooperation, OFFICIAL COOPERATON (call that yelling if you wish, but I capitalize to stress concepts.)

Now, are we going to help these people or not?

Well, there, Major, that sounds a might bit defensive, even.

Surely, there are things the ACA does that CAP does not.  I'm here to tell you that is the case.  And vice-versa.

However, and I was not trying to say that the ACA would "outstrip" or "surpass" or "steal people" from CAP, but rather I stated a pair of facts: the ACA is (slowly) growing. CAP has not been.  Anybody who has been around CAP for awhile will likely concur: while CAP's numbers may be holding steady at the moment, we're down considerably from where we were 10 years ago, still.

I'm not suggesting that the ACA is a replacement for CAP.

But remember: a little competition is a good thing. It puts EVERYBODY on top of their game.  And that's not something to sneeze at.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Cecil DP

I find it strange that the ACA is proselytizing on the CAP Talk. Is LTC Land a member of CAP??
Michael P. McEleney
LtCol CAP
MSG  USA Retired
GRW#436 Feb 85

Major Carrales

Quote from: NIN on December 17, 2007, 05:38:47 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 17, 2007, 12:55:21 AM
Careful there, Lt Col, Sir.

I detect here the possibility of "tension" between "US" and "THEM" as pointed out by your comment "The ACA is *growing* (albeit slowly, at the present). Is CAP? Hardly" and the thread that prompted that comment.

When I first started doing CAP cadets in Kingsville, people saw me as a threat to the Army JROTC program.  The Lt Col in charge there is a friend of mine, and it was assumed that there would be conflict.  There was not.  Simply because CAP offcers things that  Army JROTC does not and Army JROTC offers things CAP does not.

As it turned out, CAP cadets also enrolled in Army JROTC seem to get the best of both worlds.

CAP and ACA must do the same thing.  Pity everyone seems "defensive" of their programs to even consider that possibility of cooperation, OFFICIAL COOPERATON (call that yelling if you wish, but I capitalize to stress concepts.)

Now, are we going to help these people or not?

Well, there, Major, that sounds a might bit defensive, even.

Surely, there are things the ACA does that CAP does not.  I'm here to tell you that is the case.  And vice-versa.

However, and I was not trying to say that the ACA would "outstrip" or "surpass" or "steal people" from CAP, but rather I stated a pair of facts: the ACA is (slowly) growing. CAP has not been.  Anybody who has been around CAP for awhile will likely concur: while CAP's numbers may be holding steady at the moment, we're down considerably from where we were 10 years ago, still.

I'm not suggesting that the ACA is a replacement for CAP.

But remember: a little competition is a good thing. It puts EVERYBODY on top of their game.  And that's not something to sneeze at.



My Dear Lt Col, I have no dog in this fight.  All I have seen in this post is a person from ACA coming here for help or to spread information on the success in a program he finds worthy.  The resulting commentary has been one of general "uneasy feeling."  I have read in this post people predicting, basically, the FALL of CAP juxaposed against the growth of the ACA.  Now, that makes me UNEASY.

Look, I'm a squadron commander in a part of the Nation that most people never fail to forget.  We have worked to produce a CAP program in our area, a WHOLE CAP program, despite the odds.

I believe in CAP.  I also tend to believe that the ACA is of value to the people of my area.

I asked if we were going to help these people, Riveraux told me we should not.

Now, am I being defensive?  No, I would say I was merely reacting to the worst sorts of discussions that these forums tend to promote.

Now, you have my attention...convince me of what you think I should believe.  
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

COL Land

Quote from: Cecil DP on December 17, 2007, 05:54:19 AMI find it strange that the ACA is proselytizing on the CAP Talk. Is LTC Land a member of CAP??

"With that said, I want to make it clear that I post on these various sites in response to inquiries..."
   

You've got questions...I've got answers. 

No, I'm not a member of the Civil Air Patrol; however, many of my officers are.
JOSEPH M. LAND, SR.
COL, AG, USAC       
Acting Commander              www.goarmycadets.com
Headquarters, U.S. Army Cadet Corps

"ADVENTURE BEGINS HERE!"

Pylon

Quote from: Cecil DP on December 17, 2007, 05:54:19 AM
I find it strange that the ACA is proselytizing on the CAP Talk. Is LTC Land a member of CAP??

I don't think they're proselytizing at all.  CAPTalk members opened the inquiry, and ACA members (some who are also members of CAP, though not LTC Land) responded to questions and inquiries from CAPTalk members.  Seems pretty cool they'd be willing to come here and answer our questions.

I don't see ACA as a direct threat to the CAP Cadet Program, either.   They offer something entirely different and I could see some of my cadets as potentials to participate in both programs would it be available to them.  Perhaps down the road when ACA has developed in this area, I'd be interested.  Right now, CAP is my interest and my passion for my volunteering.

Some of you take a defensive standpoint here.  I don't know why.  Nobody is in your backyard, stealing your cadets.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

JAFO78

I see this as not ACA taking people away from CAP, but ACA letting CAP know what it working for them.

We all know that CAP is in rebuilding mod. At lest that is my option.
With all the changes that has happened with CAP National Commanders, and some dirty laundry being aired, CAP is trying to get back on the good side of Big Daddy Blue.

ACA is telling us, what works for them, maybe we should listen. A lot of good changes are coming about with CAP, (Iowa) but we must not use cookie cutter, but find out what works for each squadron, group, wing, & etc.

Again this is just one option.
JAFO

ColonelJack

I may have missed it, but I'd like to ask LTC Land --

Do I understand that the ACA is phasing out the Naval and Marine Cadet programs to concentrate solely on the Army?  If so, why?  The Naval Cadet program was the original program; why would you phase out your origins?

Or did I misunderstand?

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

DrJbdm

I believe the ACA is phasing out the other programs because there is a larger need for the Army. currently there is no program outside of JROTC for the Army. This is a way to grow and to receive major support.

The Navy has the Sea Cadets the Marines have the Young Marines and the Air Force has CAP, currently the Army has nothing. you simply go where your greatest need is. I wish the ACA was doing the Air Force thing, but hey the Army deserves a good cadet program too i guess.

COL Land

Quote from: ColonelJack on December 17, 2007, 04:51:45 PM
The Naval Cadet program was the original program; why would you phase out your origins?

Colonel:

You are correct, we are standing down the Naval Cadet Corps and Marine Cadet Corps, in favor of our future with the Army.   Rest assured, this is a difficult move for the ol' Sailor!   However, it's the right and necessary thing to do.   More can be found in ACA Notice 0705, which can be found at:   http://www.acacadets.org/PDF/acanote0705.pdf

V/R,

LTC Land
JOSEPH M. LAND, SR.
COL, AG, USAC       
Acting Commander              www.goarmycadets.com
Headquarters, U.S. Army Cadet Corps

"ADVENTURE BEGINS HERE!"

COL Land

THIS POSTING IS FOR ADULTS WHO HAVE SHOWN AN INTEREST IN THE ARMY CADET CORPS ONLY:

I would like to invite you to attend an Information Tele-Conference regarding the U.S. Army Cadet Corps on Tuesday evening, January 15th at 8:30 pm Eastern Time. The purpose of the tele-conference is to provide overview information on the U.S. Army Cadet Corps, and how adults can become involved. Since there has been such a great interest across the country, we must conduct a Tele-Conference once each month to answer basic questions, rather than to make separate calls to potential applicants.

To attend, please send an email to JMLand@militarycadets.org with the subject line: USACC Tele-Conference. In the email, please include the following:

Full Name
Home City and State
Telephone Number
Past or Present Military Rank (if applicable)

Also, please provide a few sentences which outline your professional and/or military background, as well as what you might be interested in should you become a member of the U.S. Army Cadet Corps. Upon receipt, you will receive a verification email, with the call-in number for the tele-conference and the PIN. We can only accommodate 12 people on the tele-conference, so please respond ASAP.

Detailed information regarding our program is below. I look forward to answering any further questions you might have on Tuesday night at 8:30 pm eastern.

Respectfully,
JOSEPH M. LAND, SR.
COL, AG, USAC       
Acting Commander              www.goarmycadets.com
Headquarters, U.S. Army Cadet Corps

"ADVENTURE BEGINS HERE!"