New NCO Promotion Regulations

[lordmonar]

And this changes or enhances your CAP experience, abilities, or value how, exactly?

When I get done with the white paper you can read all about it.

[Private Investigator]

^ exactly.

... and somebody still needs to make the coffee. 

[Eclipse]

And this changes or enhances your CAP experience, abilities, or value how, exactly?

When I get done with the white paper you can read all about it.

Right.

Because all successful initiatives of large organizations work like that.

The leadership makes a big-splash announcement of a new plan, including "approval" by its parent organization,
updates insignia, adds hoops for advancement, adds a bunch of extraneous staff postings to an org chart that already
looks like a tree in January, and indicates the new vistas of recruiting it will open.

Then.

6 months to a year (or more) later...

Someone writes a "white paper" about >why< the already announced and partially implemented plan is necessary and a "good idea".

Got it.

[lordmonar]

Yep...in my experience yes.   When the USAF took away the Sgt rank.....no one asked me.  They got their experts together who wrote a white paper...that was submitted to the boss.  He liked it, signed off on it....and then bam!  It was implemented.

You asked for how I think it is going to make CAP better and I told you, you have to wait until i'm finished.  This does not have anything to do with justifying the NCO corps initiative.   It was inspired by it....but that's it.

[Storm Chaser]

You asked for how I think it is going to make CAP better and I told you, you have to wait until i'm finished.

To be fair, he didn't asked you; he asked Garibaldi. 

[ProdigalJim]

At the risk of thread-drift, I'd love to see a second white paper to accompany it, talking about how the officer side of the house would change in response to whatever Pat comes up with (which I'm sure will be good).

Personally, I'd like to see steps to professionalize the officer "corps," to reduce the Goober Factor. This is not another bash CAP moment, either. In many cases, I think the AF has put up real roadblocks to CAP officers developing the kind of professionalism that AF folks say they want to see in us.

It becomes circular, and not in a good way. I spoke to a BOG member once who told me, point-blank, that the AF is going to keep its distance from CAP "officers" until they have better appearance, bearing, discipline and officership skills. Well that's kind of self-defeating if you ask me; if the AF wants to improve those areas of performance and behavior, perhaps they ought to engage more and get more involved in creating structures that look and behave the way the AF wants?

I think, for example, that it would be a worthwhile investment if competitively selected, high-quality CAP officers (and, in the new scheme, NCOs) got trained and certified to conduct CAP-only versions of Airman Leadership School, NCO School and the Commissioned Officer Training (COT) course. They could do it at locations around the country, like NCSAs are done now, and the COT course is short enough that you could do it in an NCSA-like setting. Not everyone would have to go; but those who DID go might get preferred looks for certain kinds of roles. If you did it in enough places around the country, you wouldn't be penalizing those who live far away from a site...heck, maybe each Wing could do one. It would (or could) go along with the Command specialty track. If you aspire to those kinds of roles, you have to get the higher-level training, so that when we interact with AF officers they would feel more comfortable that we're really talking the same language and in similar places in our progression and understanding.

My talk with this BOG person veered, interestingly, into uniform territory. (For the record, HE made it a uniform "thread," not me!) He observed that CAP would "never get ABUs so long as you've got 72-year-old second lieutenants." It struck me as kind of an obnoxious thing to say, but if it's at all reflective of ideas floating around the AF, then it probably tells us something.

When this person went on to complain about many senior members' inability to wear the AF uniform "properly," I pointed out the roadblocks the AF has put up to members trying to obtain reasonable uniform items, noting specifically the nonsensical hoops we're made to jump through to buy from AAFES if we aren't near a military installation. A price list without pictures? No web access? Ordering with only one or two special customer-service representatives who can take the order? No wonder people go to Salvation Army or eBay to get basic uniform items...if you can get on base, you can buy a blue uniform shirt for $15; if you can't, Vanguard sells you one for $45! How does THAT help the average member obtain new and like-new quality items for appearances?

Back to the issue at hand. I think the NCO thing is a good idea once we have a large segment of membership to be led and guided by an NCO corps. Yes I know, we don't have that yet. But I still think it would be a good idea.

[lordmonar]

You asked for how I think it is going to make CAP better and I told you, you have to wait until i'm finished.

To be fair, he didn't asked you; he asked Garibaldi. 

You are right.....Never Mind. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Back to the issue at hand. I think the NCO thing is a good idea once we have a large segment of membership to be led and guided by an NCO corps. Yes I know, we don't have that yet. But I still think it would be a good idea.

We don't have airmen, so it would be NCOs guiding NCOs.


Kinda like right now we have Officers guiding Officers, except for the 80 or so NCOs who are there "because they can".

[Eclipse]

Once a cake is in the oven, you can't change it or fix it from the inside, nor can you add ingredients to it if you forgot something.

All you can do is put icing on it and hope no one actually tastes it, or start over.

[ProdigalJim]

I know why you're saying it, but I'm not sure I agree. Change has to start someplace. In an organization like ours, as frustrating as it is I think we have to accept incremental change rather than revolution. Was the NCO program, as outlined, cart before the horse? Yep, it sure was (is). I suspect it moved to the top of the heap because our former Nat/CC was an AF NCO. But so what? We have it now, and it's time to start evolving it to serve a better purpose, just as its time to start looking at the rest of our Professional Development and progressions.

I can think of lots of SMs who probably ought not be forced to be "officers," because in the CAP sense they're never going to be called upon to fill that sort of role. Why not give them a place to be fulfilled, and a corps of supervisors to help them along? Why not start making adjustments? Even if it takes a few years, we may as well start.

[JeffDG]

Then.

6 months to a year (or more) later...

Someone writes a "white paper" about >why< the already announced and partially implemented plan is necessary and a "good idea".

Got it.

Solution in search of a problem.  Perhaps the problem has been found.

[Eclipse]

Or focus the attention and effort on mission and purpose.

[rustyjeeper]

I envision a program where folks like me, in an operational field, trade in the bottlecaps for stripes. I'll be happy with SSGT stripes, where I left off in the cadet side.

Are you returning to CAP?

[lordmonar]

Once a cake is in the oven, you can't change it or fix it from the inside, nor can you add ingredients to it if you forgot something.

All you can do is put icing on it and hope no one actually tastes it, or start over.

True. But CAP is not a cake. It is s living breathing organization that is always changing.   So I reject your analogy.

[Garibaldi]

And this changes or enhances your CAP experience, abilities, or value how, exactly?

Well, if we are really revamping the program, I can see officers as pilots or in command positions, and NCOs in specialties like ground team leader, comm, scanner, admin, all the non-officer fields. I've said that pilots and other fields should be officers, NCOs in support positions.

No, I am not back. Yet.

[ZigZag911]

It constantly amazes me how the Air Force does not understand CAP's history & heritage AT ALL.

We started off in 1941 as, essentially, those too young, too old, or otherwise unsuitable (in terms of physical fitness and/or health) for regular active service...but who still wanted to make a contribution to the nation.

That is what our ancestors in the organization did, and what we still try to do today.

Most adult members will not remotely resemble active duty, reserve or Air National Guard personnel, because most of us are middle aged or older.

USAF doesn't want the 72 year old second lieutenants??? Why not??

Seems to me they need to read a passage from Heinlein's "Starship Troopers", discussing the administrative and training role assumed by re-activated retired volunteers, as well as injured personnel no longer fit for field service., during war time; the speaker remarks that these individuals ought to count twice because they freed others for more active responsibilities.

If the Air Force doesn't want an Auxiliary, they ought to just come out and say so...I've heard in recent years that a number of other federal agencies would love to have us!

[Eclipse]

True. But CAP is not a cake. It is s living breathing organization that is always changing.   So I reject your analogy.

It's a "fully-baked" organization, and like a cake, wishing it was devil's food when you mixed it as red velvet doesn't
change the taste.  Sure you can pile other flavors on top, the resulting just being a pile of mess.

Your request for analogy rejection is therefore denied and the matter may not be reopened.

Regardless, it won't be living or breathing much longer if it doesn't concentrate on the real issues and not this kind of time-wasting, feel-good nonsense.

Anyone who wants an NCO program needs to staple their recruiting and retention plan which increases the
>active< membership by 30-50% or more, otherwise it's all just rhetoric, not to mention, that as we've
indicated about eleventy-12-teen times, unless you actually tie grade to authority, the entire conversation is
ceremonial and meaningless, with the exception of creating an unnecessary and unworkable caset system in an organization
which is already struggling with leadership and viability issues.

[PHall]

(Corporal - (Army and Marine Corps) - NCO.  However, I could not tell you the last time I actually saw an Army Corporal.)

Back in the day the only way to make Corporal was to get busted down from SGT E-5!

In the Air Force an E-4 is pretty much considered a technician with limited leadership responsibilities.

Interesting. Until not long ago, Air Force Senior Airmen (E-4) could be Military Training Instructors, Technical School Instructors, Military Training Leaders, Recruiters and Supervisors (after attending Airman Leadership School), to name a few. I would argue that E-4s in the Air Force can hold greater responsibilities than in other services such as the Army.

E-4's as MTI's was one of the reasons given for the breakdown of diciplene among MTI's at Lackland. 
Which is one of the reasons why there are no more SrA (E-4) MTI's in AETC anymore.

[NCRblues]

The AF does not want 72 year old 2nd LTs? So I am sure they are going to LOVE a 72 year old SSGT... Not. That entire line of thinking is amazingly dumb.

This orginization already skips over enforcing our own policies and avoids "hard conversations" like the plague , why is having people in stripes instead of bars any different.

We all know, and we have all said it on here a trillion times, this is a volunteer orginization. We all know and we have all talked about the people who already struggle with "orders" or "commands". The "I don't have to and you can't make me attitude" is already rampant, throw in some half cocked "NCO corps" and watch out! Can anyone say "us v. Them"?

No offense MSGT, but why are you suddenly issuing a "white paper"? Are you now the point man for NHQ on the NCO idea? I thought  a white paper was already published on this.

This is another one of the many reasons I have hung up my uniform after 15 years of service to CAP.  We have multiple personality disorder as an orginization, can't figure out who we are.

[Luis R. Ramos]

NCR,

I do not think he is issuing a white paper, he is asking a second one be issued instead...