New NCO Promotion Regulations

[Shuman 14]

"Serve quietly", yah that's never going to happen.

I don't recall "serving CAP" as something you've done at all.

You cash my check every year, that's as quiet as you're gonna get.

BTW, why do you reject fresh ideas out of turn?

To think outside the box, you kinda have to be out of the box.

You seem intent on putting me in a box... why is that?

[Майор Хаткевич]

"Serve quietly", yah that's never going to happen.

I don't recall "serving CAP" as something you've done at all.

But hey, if he does, he can instantly "outrank" most CAP members with 5+ years in!

[Майор Хаткевич]

"Serve quietly", yah that's never going to happen.

I don't recall "serving CAP" as something you've done at all.

You cash my check every year, that's as quiet as you're gonna get.

BTW, why do you reject fresh ideas out of turn?

To think outside the box, you kinda have to be out of the box.

You seem intent on putting me in a box... why is that?

As has been said many times, thanks for the donation. But the most you'd get from me at a first meeting is a polite "that's nice".

[Eclipse]

You seem intent on putting me in a box... why is that?

For pretty much the same reason you'd give me if I started offering "advice" and "comment"
about the Army's uniforms and professional development.

Ned, Lordmonor, NIN, and any number of others can go 10 rounds because we, have relevent experience
dealing with the situation. You don't, and your experience doesn't apply.

That's the risk in bringing in people at too high a level day one - those people think CAP is "just like
those other things I did...". It's not for 10 reasons CAP is unique from any other organization in
the know multiverse which is why people who think they understand it, without being >in< it,
generally have no idea what they are talking about.

[ZigZag911]

^ That was likely in the era of manning tables where grade was tied to staff levels and appointments.

True, and while I'm not advocating a return to that model, which does not work well for CAP, I still feel a longer period of training/experience between joining and becoming a CAP officer is worth considering.

[Panache]

Oddly enough, I put forth a 4 tier system that incorporated Airmen into the program, and a progression structure here a few months back. Shot down. But I still say it's valid. I spent hours on it during downtime at work. I think it would work.

I made a similar proposal, and, like you, was shot down as something "that wasn't needed."

[THRAWN]

Oddly enough, I put forth a 4 tier system that incorporated Airmen into the program, and a progression structure here a few months back. Shot down. But I still say it's valid. I spent hours on it during downtime at work. I think it would work.

I made a similar proposal, and, like you, was shot down as something "that wasn't needed."

Seems to me that none of this is really "needed". If you need something to show who is in charge, give that guy a special pin or a silly hat or a wand. No need for the rest of the membership to be wearing bars and leaves and such. The problem with it is that by wearing it, to the rest of the uniformed world, it implies competence and/or authority, which is lacking in many cases. I've said it before, and I'll advocate for it as much as I can: drop the rank system as it is now. Adopt a system similar to the Coastie Aux. Focus on real issues.

[flyboy53]

The problem is that we are a volunteer organization and promotions/awards and decorations are the only tangible means of recognizing the membership.

I do believe, however, that the promotion system needs to be really tightened up and I do believe in manning tables where if you want advanced rank, you really need to be prepared for more responsibility at higher levels of command (which also means more experience). It doesn't really hurt our organization if a standard closer to the Air Force were put in place because then that rank would actually mean something to the individual -- and then that rank would reflect the individual's experience level.

The people that really drive me nuts in CAP are ones who have so much time on their hands that they take all of the on-line courses, somehow amass multiple specialties and yet they are useless in the field. A little slowing of the rank progression and stiffer requirements in specialties and promotions would make those people more useful.

[JeffDG]

Oddly enough, I put forth a 4 tier system that incorporated Airmen into the program, and a progression structure here a few months back. Shot down. But I still say it's valid. I spent hours on it during downtime at work. I think it would work.

I made a similar proposal, and, like you, was shot down as something "that wasn't needed."

True enough.  Another solution in search of a problem.

[FlyTiger77]

To think outside the box, you kinda have to be out of the box.

Actually, no. You need to have pertinent experience and an in-depth knowledge of the parts in the box in the first place to change the status quo in a positive manner.

Imagine briefly what your thoughts would be if you were to describe on an internet forum the issues going on around your security post and someone with no true understanding of those issues beyond what (s)he read were to tell you how to fix all of your problems. Would you accept the proposed solution or would you attempt to politely explain to that person the (s)he has no idea what (s)he is talking about?

Based on my understanding that you are patron member with perhaps one renewal and have never attended a CAP meeting or function, I would think you should be able to understand why you get push-back on ideas where you are not well-versed in the issues you are trying to solve.

[Panache]

Oddly enough, I put forth a 4 tier system that incorporated Airmen into the program, and a progression structure here a few months back. Shot down. But I still say it's valid. I spent hours on it during downtime at work. I think it would work.

I made a similar proposal, and, like you, was shot down as something "that wasn't needed."

True enough.  Another solution in search of a problem.

Considering the number of pages of text written on CAPTalk on this very topic, apparently it is a problem.

[JeffDG]

Oddly enough, I put forth a 4 tier system that incorporated Airmen into the program, and a progression structure here a few months back. Shot down. But I still say it's valid. I spent hours on it during downtime at work. I think it would work.

I made a similar proposal, and, like you, was shot down as something "that wasn't needed."

True enough.  Another solution in search of a problem.

Considering the number of pages of text written on CAPTalk on this very topic, apparently it is a problem.

If this is such an apparent problem, then, please clearly and succinctly define:
1.  What the problem is
2.  What impact upon any or all of the mission areas the problem impacts
3.  The extent of the impact
4.  How the proposed solution will have a significant positive impact on 2

[Garibaldi]

1. Eleventy officers, some who hold positions that an NCO should/could have.
2. 21 year old captains without real world experience commanding 45 year old majors and Lt Cols.
3. A more diverse base of SM to draw from. Personally, I'd drop the oak leaves for TSGT in a heartbeat to do my job.
4. NCOs leading ground teams. NCOs holding support positions that officers in the Real Military don't. Gives us more options

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

3. A more diverse base of SM to draw from. Personally, I'd drop the oak leaves for TSGT in a heartbeat to do my job.

As would I, except I would be dropping railway tracks.  I am a support person with no aspiration to command.

[Eclipse]

1. Eleventy-Twelveteen officers, some who hold positions that an NCO should/could have.

FTFY. Also, since authority is not connected to grade. Where do the replacements come from?

2. 21 year old captains without real world experience commanding 45 year old majors and Lt Cols.

This does not fix or address the issue in any way.

3. A more diverse base of SM to draw from.

From where? Please link to the studies, polls, or other relevent public data that NHQ has published which shows the
significant new-member pool that is waiting in the wings for nothing more then "stripes vs. shiny" to join.

I would personally hazard that today there are more current and former military NCOs already serving as CAP
members wearing CAP officer grade, and who could not care less about this conversation, then there are non-member
NCOs waiting to join but holding off because they would have to wear metal.

By a long shot

4. NCOs leading ground teams. NCOs holding support positions that officers in the Real Military don't. Gives us more options

"Options"?  Please clarify.

Does this mean Wing CCs can't be GTLs or on a UDF team?  NCOs can't serve on air crew?  What about ICS staff?
Is GBD a Chief?  How about Admin Officer? Many have suggested that the steretypical "not my job I work for a living"
nonsense would apply to CAP NCOs. So we actually give license to people to specialize and disavow the only actual "work" of a CAP unit or HQ?

The result of that logic is even more empty lines on the org charts and ICS staff rosters then we already have.

Again, this reasoning pre-supposes a full reboot of CAP's entire structure, end-to-end, including all functional roles being
re-scoped to "match" the supposed "proper" grade.

Except that will never work in a volunteer paradigm, because for starters, CAP is undermanned by 30-50% to even consider
this type of restructure.

Start here:

Look at the typical Unit, Group, wing or Region org chart and count the fully empty spaces.

Then filter out all the people who are multi-booked at either their assigned echelon, or worse, at multiple echelons.

Then multiply by two, because each position needs a deputy or assistant.

Say for arguments sake there are 1100 charters, each with 5 slots open - that's 5500 NEW members needed
today, simply to fill the org chart properly, and doesn't account for the far too many units with 2-3 times
that many open slots.  I personally know of wings with 25-30 open slots, many in critical positions, so 5500
isn't likely even close.  I'd WAG its more like 15000 members we are short just to fill slots - that's not mission focus, that O&A
which is, by far, what the majority of members are involved in.

That makes no assertion of filtering jobs based on grade or status in 99% of the cases, even wing and National command,
if you want the job you can have it.

Show me the plan that grows 15-20,000 new members within the same time frame as the implementation of the
reboot and we can talk.  Reboot, not just "NCOs are the backbone of CAP" rhetoric with no plan to how that translates to the real world.

Make sure it encompasses the attrition when you start telling aircrews who don't qualify as officers they can't fly anymore
and people in it just for Ground SAR that they have to assume REMF jobs.

[Shuman 14]

You seem intent on putting me in a box... why is that?

For pretty much the same reason you'd give me if I started offering "advice" and "comment"
about the Army's uniforms and professional development.

Ned, Lordmonor, NIN, and any number of others can go 10 rounds because we, have relevent experience dealing with the situation. You don't, and your experience doesn't apply.

That's the risk in bringing in people at too high a level day one - those people think CAP is "just like
those other things I did...". It's not for 10 reasons CAP is unique from any other organization in
the know multiverse which is why people who think they understand it, without being >in< it,
generally have no idea what they are talking about.

Actually I'd welcome comments from outside the Army about how our uniforms look because the comments will most likely be about how we actually look and not how we think we look.

The same for professional development, we (the Army) don't hold the patent on the only way to develope Soldiers and/or Leaders... outside ideas can be good for overall growth.

And I'm sorry CAP is not as unique as you think it is, that's tunnel vision from inside the tunnel.

[Shuman 14]

To think outside the box, you kinda have to be out of the box.

Actually, no. You need to have pertinent experience and an in-depth knowledge of the parts in the box in the first place to change the status quo in a positive manner.

Imagine briefly what your thoughts would be if you were to describe on an internet forum the issues going on around your security post and someone with no true understanding of those issues beyond what (s)he read were to tell you how to fix all of your problems. Would you accept the proposed solution or would you attempt to politely explain to that person the (s)he has no idea what (s)he is talking about?

Based on my understanding that you are patron member with perhaps one renewal and have never attended a CAP meeting or function, I would think you should be able to understand why you get push-back on ideas where you are not well-versed in the issues you are trying to solve.

Sir,

I've been to several CAP functions as a guest of members who were trying to recruit me.

Many years ago when I was still a Cadet in ROTC, I had several brother Cadets that were in CAP and we attended some training events for Ground Teams which we believed would help us in our orienteering skills development.

More recently I've attended several holiday parties and award ceremonies over last couple of years and had some interaction with CAP Cadets who were referred to me by friends in CAP because the CAP Cadets were interested in joining the Army and wanted them to talk to someone who was not a recruiter.

Also I donated three footlockers full of BDUs to a local squadron because I no longer have a use for them.

Not a lot of experience but I'm not completely ignorant.

Now I've made suggestions, based on my 24+ years experience in Armed Forces and 10+ years experience in Law Enforcement and 15+ years of private security experience and a Masters degree in Organizational Leadership and Supervision, suggestions I believe whould help make CAP better.

If you choose to reject them, I would not be butt-hurt. If you find any value in them based on your greater experience, please feel free to use them.

[Eclipse]

Now I've made suggestions, based on my 24+ years experience in Armed Forces and 10+ years experience in Law Enforcement and 15+ years of private security experience and a Masters degree in Organizational Leadership and Supervision, suggestions I believe whould help make CAP better.

And interestingly, with all that irrelevant experience, your suggestions are inappropriate.

The kid who lives next door to me was a Marine, guess I need to give General Dunford a call before he loses his way!

[Bobble]

To think outside the box, you kinda have to be out of the box.

Actually, no. You need to have pertinent experience and an in-depth knowledge of the parts in the box in the first place to change the status quo in a positive manner.

Imagine briefly what your thoughts would be if you were to describe on an internet forum the issues going on around your security post and someone with no true understanding of those issues beyond what (s)he read were to tell you how to fix all of your problems. Would you accept the proposed solution or would you attempt to politely explain to that person the (s)he has no idea what (s)he is talking about?

Based on my understanding that you are patron member with perhaps one renewal and have never attended a CAP meeting or function, I would think you should be able to understand why you get push-back on ideas where you are not well-versed in the issues you are trying to solve.

Sir,

I've been to several CAP functions as a guest of members who were trying to recruit me.

Many years ago when I was still a Cadet in ROTC, I had several brother Cadets that were in CAP and we attended some training events for Ground Teams which we believed would help us in our orienteering skills development.

More recently I've attended several holiday parties and award ceremonies over last couple of years and had some interaction with CAP Cadets who were referred to me by friends in CAP because the CAP Cadets were interested in joining the Army and wanted them to talk to someone who was not a recruiter.

Also I donated three footlockers full of BDUs to a local squadron because I no longer have a use for them.

Not a lot of experience but I'm not completely ignorant.

Now I've made suggestions, based on my 24+ years experience in Armed Forces and 10+ years experience in Law Enforcement and 15+ years of private security experience and a Masters degree in Organizational Leadership and Supervision, suggestions I believe whould help make CAP better.

If you choose to reject them, I would not be butt-hurt. If you find any value in them based on your greater experience, please feel free to use them.

If only you would step into the existing CAP organization on an active basis and seek a leadership role where you could possibly affect CAP programs (Cadet or otherwise), even if simply at the local level.  Think of all that you could accomplish with your MS in OL&S and "... 24+ years in Armed Forces and 10+ years in Law Enforcement and 15+ years of private security experience ...".

But instead, you've chosen to go to occasional CAP parties and awards functions, donate BDU's that you have no further use for and cut your annual Patron Membership check (a little over half of what a Full Membership typically costs, by the way), and then spend your time posting here on CAP Talk discussing Senior Member advancement issues you are not a part of or the colors/shades of the pantaloons of a CAP uniform you are not permitted to wear - http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19359.20.  Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Oscar?

Even as 'just' a Patron Member, you could be spending whatever free time you might have writing up leadership lesson plans and exercises, based upon your voluminous education and tremendous experience in things mil as shown above, and passing them off to a local Cadet squadron.  The Senior Members there would doubtless be very appreciative as they are likely way too busy doing their 'part-time' best fulfilling National's/Wing's/Group's admin requirements in successfully running a Squadron to be worried about what shade of grey slacks their comrades happen to be wearing.

Feel free to step up to the plate (see first paragraph) any time at all, and let us all know when you've actually got some skin in this game.  I for one would be interested in seeing how that might work out for you.

[Shuman 14]

Now I've made suggestions, based on my 24+ years experience in Armed Forces and 10+ years experience in Law Enforcement and 15+ years of private security experience and a Masters degree in Organizational Leadership and Supervision, suggestions I believe whould help make CAP better.

And interestingly, with all that irrelevant experience, your suggestions are inappropriate.

The kid who lives next door to me was a Marine, guess I need to give General Dunford a call before he loses his way!

Inappropriate... how? 

And if you are friends with the General and you think he could help, then by all means Sir, contact him.