New NCO Promotion Regulations

[Shuman 14]

You may be surprised by the number of real military NCO's who also hold reserve commissions.  For example, when I went to MEPS, I was processed by an Army E-6 who administered my enlistment oath as an Reserve Army O-3.

I understand that this is because  when officers in the lower grades are R.I.F.'d they are (sometimes) given the opportunity to enlist at an advanced pay-grade, but simultaneously hold a reserve commission and will receive their retirement at the highest pay-grade attained.   

If the "real military" doesn't have a problem with simultaneously holding both officer and enlisted grade, why should we?

Not really "simultaneously". You will always retire at your highest rank, but with your highest pay.

IN your example a Captain was RIF-ed and allowed to enlist to complete his twenty years of service at E-5. He continues in Service and promotes all the way up to Sergeant Major.

When he retires he will be discharged as a Captain (highest rank) but receive the Sergeant Major's retirement benefit (highest pay).

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The military doesn't have 65 year old Captains, or for that matter 75 year old SrAs.

I know of one instance during the callups after 9/11 of a retired Army Chief Warrant Officer (4 or 5, not sure which).

He was rather aged and had put in a LOT of time in the Army.

However, the Army decided he needed to complete Basic Training again, or at least parts of it!

One of the Drill Sergeants who was supposed to train him was interviewed and said "I really don't know what to do with this.  He is too old for this kind of physical stress, and I cannot really treat him as a recruit because he is an officer and I have to salute him."

I don't know how it eventually played out...but the Army had to be pretty short of people in this CWO's MOS to have called him up.

[Shuman 14]

That said, CAP is different and should not be held to the same standard as the military. Should we require CAP officers to hold degrees? Probably not. Do we need all members to be officers? Definitely not. In fact, I don't know of any other organization in which 90% of members are officers.

Which is why I'm starting to agree with some on this board that Warrant Officer rank is the way to go.

Five levels of CAP education = five Warrant Officer grades. (Yes you'd have to "create" an USAF CW-5 grade insignia)

Flight Officer for 18-21 year olds stays the same but the 21 promotion would be WO-1, CW-2, and CW-3 respectively.

Officer rank would be temporary for those that hold "command" positions and once you are out of command you revert back to your Warrant rank.

If you want to be an NCO, because you were/are one in the Military, then continue the current policy of awarding NCO rank, but there is no need for a promotion system.

The only "butt-hurt" people would be prior Service Officers (like myself) who would no longer be able to receive direct appointments to our Military rank in CAP.

That way almost all of CAP would be "equal" to each outher, but outranked by almost all of the USAF we are supposed to be supporting.

[Shuman 14]

How about this one.

For the general guy off the street, no special qualifications, no prior military, no nothing....just a 18 year old wishing to serve.

Joins up as an Airman Basic, six moths gets Amn, 10 months later A1C, after three years he gets SrA.

At that point he can (if he qualifies) go to a CAP OTS (sort of like RCS but different) and at the four year mark puts on 2d Lt.

If he can't go officer, he gos to a CAP NCO School and at the four year mark puts on SSgt.

For those non-prior military types with special qualifications CAP is looking for (Pilots, Lawyers, Chaplains, etc)....they join at the six month mark they put on FO, at the sixteen month mark they put on TFO, and at three years they put on SFO....they then go to the OTS and put on 2d Lt.

Prior military personnel can AFTER SIX MONTHS apply for and be appointed to appropriate CAP grade.

Just to point out.....this is my own little ideal, I have no idea if the NCO corps team is working on something like this.

I like your ideal.   :clap:

Not bad, I like it too.  :clap:

[Storm Chaser]

That said, CAP is different and should not be held to the same standard as the military. Should we require CAP officers to hold degrees? Probably not. Do we need all members to be officers? Definitely not. In fact, I don't know of any other organization in which 90% of members are officers.

Which is why I'm starting to agree with some on this board that Warrant Officer rank is the way to go.

Five levels of CAP education = five Warrant Officer grades. (Yes you'd have to "create" an USAF CW-5 grade insignia)

Flight Officer for 18-21 year olds stays the same but the 21 promotion would be WO-1, CW-2, and CW-3 respectively.

Officer rank would be temporary for those that hold "command" positions and once you are out of command you revert back to your Warrant rank.

If you want to be an NCO, because you were/are one in the Military, then continue the current policy of awarding NCO rank, but there is no need for a promotion system.

The only "butt-hurt" people would be prior Service Officers (like myself) who would no longer be able to receive direct appointments to our Military rank in CAP.

That way almost all of CAP would be "equal" to each outher, but outranked by almost all of the USAF we are supposed to be supporting.

I could live with that.

[Eclipse]

That way almost all of CAP would be "equal" to each outher, but outranked by almost all of the USAF we are supposed to be supporting.

And why is this important?

[RiverAux]

That way almost all of CAP would be "equal" to each outher, but outranked by almost all of the USAF we are supposed to be supporting.

So, there should be some hierarchy of service?  So, when the Air Force is supporting the Army by flying some troops around, the AF pilots should revert to a lower rank than the highest ranking Army officer? 

Thats just as ludicrous as the idea that there should be some relationship between CAP rank and AF rank.  After all, if you want to use that sort of logic we might as well get rid of all the ranks since even an Airman would outrank a CAP Major General. 

CAP rank is CAP rank.  Stop trying to relate it to other services. 

Fire Department Captains are different from Police Captains that are different from Air Force Captains that are different from Navy Captains (who could actually be an Ensign) that are different from Captain Kangaroo.

[Shuman 14]

That said, CAP is different and should not be held to the same standard as the military. Should we require CAP officers to hold degrees? Probably not. Do we need all members to be officers? Definitely not. In fact, I don't know of any other organization in which 90% of members are officers.

Which is why I'm starting to agree with some on this board that Warrant Officer rank is the way to go.

Five levels of CAP education = five Warrant Officer grades. (Yes you'd have to "create" an USAF CW-5 grade insignia)

Flight Officer for 18-21 year olds stays the same but the 21 promotion would be WO-1, CW-2, and CW-3 respectively.

Officer rank would be temporary for those that hold "command" positions and once you are out of command you revert back to your Warrant rank.

If you want to be an NCO, because you were/are one in the Military, then continue the current policy of awarding NCO rank, but there is no need for a promotion system.

The only "butt-hurt" people would be prior Service Officers (like myself) who would no longer be able to receive direct appointments to our Military rank in CAP.

That way almost all of CAP would be "equal" to each outher, but outranked by almost all of the USAF we are supposed to be supporting.

I could live with that.

Did we just agree on something? Cold day in Hades indeed! 

[Shuman 14]

That way almost all of CAP would be "equal" to each outher, but outranked by almost all of the USAF we are supposed to be supporting.

And why is this important?

Were you not just complaining that with this new NCO system we would have CAP Captains ordering CAP SSGTs to take out the garbage!!?!! 

Talk about eating and having your cake too!

[Eclipse]

That way almost all of CAP would be "equal" to each outher, but outranked by almost all of the USAF we are supposed to be supporting.

And why is this important?

Were you not just complaining that with this new NCO system we would have CAP Captains ordering CAP SSGTs to take out the garbage!!?!! 

Talk about eating and having your cake too!

How is this related to that?

[Shuman 14]

That way almost all of CAP would be "equal" to each outher, but outranked by almost all of the USAF we are supposed to be supporting.

So, there should be some hierarchy of service?  So, when the Air Force is supporting the Army by flying some troops around, the AF pilots should revert to a lower rank than the highest ranking Army officer? 

Thats just as ludicrous as the idea that there should be some relationship between CAP rank and AF rank.  After all, if you want to use that sort of logic we might as well get rid of all the ranks since even an Airman would outrank a CAP Major General. 

CAP rank is CAP rank.  Stop trying to relate it to other services. 

Fire Department Captains are different from Police Captains that are different from Air Force Captains that are different from Navy Captains (who could actually be an Ensign) that are different from Captain Kangaroo.

As one who was (is?) a member of the USCGAux you should understand the model of no rank/office when supporting the real military.

Warrant Officer rank would be a great compromise for CAP where "rank" seems to matter, but doesn't really.

There would still be a hierarchy in place, Flight Officers are subordinate to Warrant Officers, Warrant Officers have rank over each other and commanders at all levels have temporary command/authority rank over the Warrants and each other by chain of command.

You still show progression but would no longer have six out of work LTCs making coffee for a meeting run by a CPT, you'd have a room full of Warrant Officers that currently work for that CPT.

And yes, an Air Force Airman should out rank a CAP General, much the same as a Seaman recruit in the USCG out ranks a USCGAux Commodore.   

[Shuman 14]

That way almost all of CAP would be "equal" to each outher, but outranked by almost all of the USAF we are supposed to be supporting.

And why is this important?

Were you not just complaining that with this new NCO system we would have CAP Captains ordering CAP SSGTs to take out the garbage!!?!! 

Talk about eating and having your cake too!

How is this related to that?

Are you being obtuse Sir, or is that a serious question?

[Eclipse]

There would still be a hierarchy in place, Flight Officers are subordinate to Warrant Officers, Warrant Officers have rank over each other and commanders at all levels have temporary command/authority rank over the Warrants and each other by chain of command.

Statements like this are where your lack of participation shows.

There is no hierarchy of grade in CAP, period.  Until that changes, any restructure is just moving the furniture.

You're commenting, again, on things you have no clue about, nor relevent experience to bring to the conversation.

[Eclipse]

That way almost all of CAP would be "equal" to each outher, but outranked by almost all of the USAF we are supposed to be supporting.

And why is this important?

Were you not just complaining that with this new NCO system we would have CAP Captains ordering CAP SSGTs to take out the garbage!!?!! 

Talk about eating and having your cake too!

How is this related to that?

Are you being obtuse Sir, or is that a serious question?

It's a serious question - CAP is not a "subordinate service" to the USAF or anyone else, therefore, whether CAP grades
are, on the mean, lower higher, or equal to the USAF is irrelevant, see River's point above.

Your best best is to join a unit, serve quietly for 3-5 years, then come back to this conversation.

[RiverAux]

And yes, an Air Force Airman should out rank a CAP General, much the same as a Seaman recruit in the USCG out ranks a USCGAux Commodore.   

And thats where you show that you don't understand how CAP works.  No one outranks a CAP General.  He/She is a CAP General.  HeShe is not subordinate to any Air Force officer or airman.  He reports to the CAP BoG. 

Unless a CAP person happens to be on an Air Force Base, that CAP person can ignore an order given by an AF General. 

And that is why it doesn't matter how CAP ranks look to other services. 

As one who was (is?) a member of the USCGAux you should understand the model of no rank/office when supporting the real military.

I do, but CAP has shown that it is certainly possible to do it an entirely different way as we have done since 1941. 

Theres a lot of things CAP could learn from CG Aux, but few of them relate directly to CAP rank.

[Shuman 14]

That way almost all of CAP would be "equal" to each outher, but outranked by almost all of the USAF we are supposed to be supporting.

And why is this important?

Were you not just complaining that with this new NCO system we would have CAP Captains ordering CAP SSGTs to take out the garbage!!?!! 

Talk about eating and having your cake too!

How is this related to that?

Are you being obtuse Sir, or is that a serious question?

It's a serious question - CAP is not a "subordinate service" to the USAF or anyone else, therefore, whether CAP grades
are, on the mean, lower higher, or equal to the USAF is irrelevant, see River's point above.

Your best best is to join a unit, serve quietly for 3-5 years, then come back to this conversation.

"Serve quietly", yah that's never going to happen.

But thanks for the advise Sir, BTW based on your predictions of doom and gloom for CAP, will it still be around for me to serve in 5 years from now? 

[Shuman 14]

And yes, an Air Force Airman should out rank a CAP General, much the same as a Seaman recruit in the USCG out ranks a USCGAux Commodore.   

And thats where you show that you don't understand how CAP works.  No one outranks a CAP General.  He/She is a CAP General.  HeShe is not subordinate to any Air Force officer or airman.  He reports to the CAP BoG. 

Unless a CAP person happens to be on an Air Force Base, that CAP person can ignore an order given by an AF General. 

And that is why it doesn't matter how CAP ranks look to other services. 

As one who was (is?) a member of the USCGAux you should understand the model of no rank/office when supporting the real military.

I do, but CAP has shown that it is certainly possible to do it an entirely different way as we have done since 1941. 

Theres a lot of things CAP could learn from CG Aux, but few of them relate directly to CAP rank.

So which do you think is the better approach?

I strongly believe CAP would get less blow back and more USAF Auxiliary missions if rank wasn't envolved and there was just service to the mission.

[RiverAux]

The primary reason that CG Aux has such a close relationship with the USCG is that the CG is a tiny service that has a bajillion missions that have to be performed right here in the United States and they need the help to get the job done (at least certain jobs). 

I've been a big proponent of trying to develop a program where CAP members could augment the AF and that certainly could be done the same way that the CG Aux does it -- take off the rank while serving with the CG.  CAP could institute such a rule today and it would resolve any issues arising from that. 

[Tim Medeiros]

And yes, an Air Force Airman should out rank a CAP General, much the same as a Seaman recruit in the USCG out ranks a USCGAux Commodore.   

And thats where you show that you don't understand how CAP works.  No one outranks a CAP General.  He/She is a CAP General.  HeShe is not subordinate to any Air Force officer or airman.  He reports to the CAP BoG. 

Unless a CAP person happens to be on an Air Force Base, that CAP person can ignore an order given by an AF General. 

And that is why it doesn't matter how CAP ranks look to other services. 

As one who was (is?) a member of the USCGAux you should understand the model of no rank/office when supporting the real military.

I do, but CAP has shown that it is certainly possible to do it an entirely different way as we have done since 1941. 

Theres a lot of things CAP could learn from CG Aux, but few of them relate directly to CAP rank.

So which do you think is the better approach?

I strongly believe CAP would get less blow back and more USAF Auxiliary missions if rank wasn't envolved and there was just service to the mission.

You're showing your ignorance of CAP operations again, how about becoming an active member and actually learning this stuff?


Rank/grade is not involved in the issuance of missions by the AF or federal agencies (the types that trigger our Aux status).  Our SOW and MOUs have more of a factor than anything.

[Eclipse]

"Serve quietly", yah that's never going to happen.

I don't recall "serving CAP" as something you've done at all.