New NCO Promotion Regulations

Started by pierson777, September 20, 2014, 03:19:35 AM

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pierson777

Quote from: lordmonar on October 12, 2014, 02:30:15 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 12, 2014, 02:09:01 AM
Pat, the one thing I have a problem with is that a military commissioned officer can be promoted in CAP when they get promoted in the military.
Just produce that new CAC card and bingo, you're promoted up to O-5.
This new system for the NCO's does not allow that.  Why are we discriminating against NCO's?  If it's good for the O's it should be good for the E's.
My thinking is....and again this is speculation or maybe reading too much into the white paper....but in the future that option for the O's may go away.

And yes....we are discriminating against NCOs...we want to make getting to the top rank in CAP NCO corps as hard as we can...so that the top ranks mean something.

From what your saying (perhaps speculating), it is inferred that they created more restrictions making it harder to promote in the hopes that someday later the officer promotion standards would also become more restrictive and difficult?  Why couldn't they just create promotion system that mirrored the current PD level and time-in-grade requirements for duty performance promotions for officers.  Then perhaps someday later, both NCO and officer duty performance promotions could change at the same time...if they ever do.  If they don't change, then the NCO promotion system will forever be more difficult than the officer's.  This is how I would like to see it :


Level I:   2d Lt   or   SSgt    NCO appointment as soon as Level I is complete
Level II:  1st Lt  or   TSgt    same time-in-grade for officer and NCO
Level III: Capt   or   MSgt    same time-in-grade for officer and NCO
Level IV:  Maj    or   SMSgt  same time-in-grade for officer and NCO
Level V:   Lt Col or   CMSgt  same time-in-grade for officer and NCO

lordmonar

If we did it that way, shy bother to do it all?  It is more than just a hope that the officer system would change.  Revamping the NCO program is just the first step in changing the officer ranks.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

pierson777

Quote from: lordmonar on October 12, 2014, 03:26:39 AM
If we did it that way, shy bother to do it all?  It is more than just a hope that the officer system would change.  Revamping the NCO program is just the first step in changing the officer ranks.

So that NCO's can promote.  I thought that was the whole point of creating the NCO promotions system?  What other reason could there possibly be?  We already had a promotion system in place.  Why not just get on board with that system?  When it changes, we all change.  Simple as that.

If you give people something to strive for, set goals, accomplish, etc.,  then they might do more professional development and specialty track advancement.   Then CAP would have higher number of knowledgeable and hopefully more capable members that would stick around longer than one or two years.

As far as change in the officer promotion system, I had a conversation in person with someone from membership services about this.   I was told that there was a strong consideration to change the whole PD and promotion system, and it was expected within two years.  That conversation happened nine years ago, and we just saw the first change two months ago.  Are you expecting more changes, and what specific, first hand knowledge do you have to support it?

lordmonar

Creating a promotion system is only one step in creating an enlisted corps.....and you have to have that if you are going to change the requirements for becoming an officer.

This is all spelled out in the the white paper that started this all off last year.

Yes it is going to take a long time.

You are right that having goals for people to strive for is something that would encourage them to do more PD and take on the hard jobs.   We got that in the NCO promotion system.....but not in the officer system.

You can get your level 5 with out having to do much of anything outside of the squadron.
You can get your Master Level in most specialty tracks with our ever doing anything outside of the squadron.

Wanting to focus on just the squadron is fine.....no not just fine, but admirable, but should you be a Lt Col or a CMSgt? 
Personally I don't think so.   Getting to the top ranks should not be something you get for just hanging around.

We have already seen some changes on the officer side with the requirement to get NSC and Level V to be eligible for Lt Col.  I think this is a wonderful idea.   
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Майор Хаткевич

Most wings make Major the hard stop on "squadron only" promotions.

lordmonar

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on October 12, 2014, 04:32:10 AM
Most wings make Major the hard stop on "squadron only" promotions.
Not by regulation.....nor across all of CAP.   I agree in principle to that policy....I would like to see it in a regulation.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

PHall

Quote from: lordmonar on October 12, 2014, 05:06:02 AM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on October 12, 2014, 04:32:10 AM
Most wings make Major the hard stop on "squadron only" promotions.
Not by regulation.....nor across all of CAP.   I agree in principle to that policy....I would like to see it in a regulation.

It was way back in the 50's and 60's. The grade quotas went away in the 70's.

pierson777

Quote from: lordmonar on October 12, 2014, 04:30:08 AM
This is all spelled out in the the white paper that started this all off last year.
I never heard of the white paper to which you refer, so I never read it.  I'd like to.  Where is it published?  How is the general membership suppose to know about a white paper.  Honestly I never heard of a white paper till just now.  I had to look it up.  The USAF has something called a talking paper that seems to be the same thing.  I wonder why CAP doesn't call it a talking paper instead of a white paper.

lordmonar

Here is the white paper.

And for the record....a White Paper is usually an a report to help the reader make a decision, understand an issue, or solve a problem.

Talking paper is sort of a condensed white paper.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

RiverAux

Quote from: PHall on October 12, 2014, 02:09:01 AM
the one thing I have a problem with is that a military commissioned officer can be promoted in CAP when they get promoted in the military.
Just produce that new CAC card and bingo, you're promoted up to O-5.

You COULD be promoted, but no one is required to promote you. 

Eclipse

Quote from: lordmonar on October 12, 2014, 06:28:35 AM
Here is the white paper.

And for the record....a White Paper is usually an a report to help the reader make a decision, understand an issue, or solve a problem.

Talking paper is sort of a condensed white paper.

The majority of the assumptions and assertions on the summary page are incorrect, or improperly characterized.

The rest of it builds on these assumptions, to incorrect conclusions.

But you knew that.

"That Others May Zoom"

pierson777

Quote from: lordmonar on October 12, 2014, 06:28:35 AM
Here is the white paper.

And for the record....a White Paper is usually an a report to help the reader make a decision, understand an issue, or solve a problem.

Talking paper is sort of a condensed white paper.

I'd like to learn more about this.  Does USAF have anything to describe the white paper?  They never taught me anything about it, and didn't see it in the Tongue and Quill.

lordmonar

Not usually something done in the Air Force. Thanking papers are usually as deep as they go. The white paper is usually all the support that you would use to write the talking paper.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

JeffDG

Quote from: pierson777 on October 12, 2014, 04:00:45 AM

So that NCO's can promote.  I thought that was the whole point of creating the NCO promotions system? 
that's kinda the point.  The NCO Program is a solution in desperate search of a problem.

Al Sayre

Quote from: pierson777 on October 12, 2014, 01:03:57 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 11, 2014, 10:48:09 PM
Quote from: Lord of the North on October 11, 2014, 10:34:07 PM
6-3. Subsequent Promotions. Subsequent promotions must meet the minimum skill level and time-in-grade requirements and be considered by the appropriate Promotion Board. Time-in grade requirements are based on the member's grade in CAP and is not affected by a currently serving member's time in military grade. Once a member enters the NCO program, promotion is based entirely on the above criteria and is not affected by a currently serving member's military promotion. Members eligible for promotion may only be promoted if selected for the identified in Figure 8. Where "any position" is listed, there are no limits to the number of members promotable to the respective grade. Promotion limits exist only for key NCO leadership positions. Promotions to the grade of CAP SSgt or TSgt are permanent. Promotions to the rank of CAP MSgt, SMSgt and CMSgt are temporary. Minimum tenure must be met before the grade becomes permanent. Professional Development levels and time-in-grade requirements are non-waiverable. Request for waivers based on duty performance may be requested. The request should include a CAP Form 2 as well as letter of justification. All waivers to duty position requirements for the grades of senior NCOs (MSgt, SMSgt, CMSgt) must be submitted along with supporting documentation through the region commander to the National Commander.

Wow. Seriously, wow.

That was one of my issues with the new NCO program as well.  CAP officers may advance their CAP grade as they advance their military grade. So, why can't NCO's advance their CAP grade as they advance their military grade?  This combined with the six month time-in-grade as a SM before appointment plus the limited numbers of promotable positions per unit, makes it seem like a two tiered system.  Was that the intent? 

I can only speculate that this could be a bit de-motivational for NCO's.  They created more limitations for NCO promotions, and they created more complexities in the administrative process.  Ultimately, this detracts from the most important functions and activities of CAP which is our three missions; including mission training and mission readiness.

For every problem there is a solution - Expire for 90 days, rejoin and get appointed to the new grade... >:D
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

catrulz

Based on Phase II and III of the white paper under the implementation plan, I would guess there is going to be a degree requirement for CAP officers at some point.

"Redefine the standards for entry into the CAP Officer program"

I know this has been a discussion point in the past.

Under Phase I - Recruitment would have been smoother if there had been a conversion matrix based on the former NCO's prior military service + their training and advancement to date in CAP.  Especially in light of the fact, that you won't allow them to wear their former grade until after 6 months, because they need experience in CAP.   Many former NCOs that might have been interested, may not be without credit for what they have already achieved in CAP.

abdsp51

Quote from: catrulz on October 13, 2014, 05:36:54 PM
Based on Phase II and III of the white paper under the implementation plan, I would guess there is going to be a degree requirement for CAP officers at some point.

"Redefine the standards for entry into the CAP Officer program"

I know this has been a discussion point in the past.

They want us to have a degree the org can pay for it.

RiverAux

No, they may just want officers with degrees.  If you want to be an officer.... if you don't....

abdsp51

Quote from: RiverAux on October 13, 2014, 05:59:12 PM
No, they may just want officers with degrees.  If you want to be an officer.... if you don't....

If they want officers to hold degrees the org can pay for it.  Having a degree does not make someone a better leader or officer.

stillamarine

Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com