New NCO Promotion Regulations

[RiverAux]

Like they pay for people to earn their pilot's licenses because we want pilots?

I don't particularly support this idea, but it isn't crazy.

[Eclipse]

Why doesn't CAP ever reach for the affectation of the parts of the military that would actually benefit it
or the membership?

Raise the bar on who can serve as staff and commanders?  I'm there with you, let's do it today, by
holding people to expectations of performance and training them INTERNALLY >BEFORE< they
get the prime job.

Anything CAP expects of the membership in terms of training or education, it should be providing to
its members, otherwise you break the entirety of the ROI, not to mention shrink your membership
pool  even further.

[abdsp51]

Why doesn't CAP ever reach for the affectation of the parts of the military that would actually benefit it
or the membership?

Raise the bar on who can serve as staff and commanders?  I'm there with you, let's do it today, by
holding people to expectations of performance and training them INTERNALLY >BEFORE< they
get the prime job.

Anything CAP expects of the membership in terms of training or education, it should be providing to
its members, otherwise you break the entirety of the ROI, not to mention shrink your membership
pool  even further.

Bingo.  If my employer requires me to have something to do my job they provide it no ifs, ands, or butts.  Got told I was required to have steel toe boots imply because every now and then I would go out on the flight line, told them you're buying them I'm not coming out of pocket.  I've seen alot of silly nonsense in this org especially on the ES side of things and when I pose the question to those folks of are you buying it for me or them they turn around and run. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

This is a really bad, Godwin's-Law evoking comparison, but I think it shows the two-tiered disconnect between CAP rank and serving military rank.

An AF SSgt accepts the grade of CAP SSgt.  However, SSgt Stripes is promoted to TSgt, and subsequently MSgt, in the Air Force (or ANG, or AFRES).  However,  SSgt Stripes may still be an SSgt in CAP, because s/he may not have met CAP requirements for promotion.  MSgt Stripes, USAF/AFRES/ANG, scratches his/her head over "what's wrong with this picture?"

Those of you who are history buffs know that in WWII, Hitler's personal band of merry thugs, the SS, had several different divisions, though nearly identical uniforms and ranks.

There was such a disconnect between the Allgemeine-SS ("general" SS, who mostly manned the death/concentration camps) and Waffen-SS ("armed" SS, the "battlefield" SS) that it was possible to hold wildly disparate ranks between the two.

If you were a member of both the Wf-SS and Alg-SS, you could hold such differing ranks as SS-Hauptsturmführer (captain) in the Wf-SS and Scharführer (approximately Sergeant) in the Alg-SS...thereby outranking yourself!

Then, of course, if you were also in the Gestapo or Ordnungspolizei, also controlled by the SS, you could have so many different ranks you wouldn't know which on-base club you could go in to trink ein Bier.

Of course, CAP is by no means the SS and I don't intend to infer that at all...my point is the confusion between what rank who holds where.

And then if you are also in the CGAUX (which has "offices," but with quasi-rank insignia), your SDF, etc., the confusion can be even worse.

[CAPAPRN]

I think one needs to only look at the college hour requirements (not even degree) and what it has done to the CDI program (at least in my area- I am sure some will offer glowing reviews of thriving programs) to see what that type of requirement would do. I really don't think NHQ wants their membership dues to dry up that fast. As to everyone switching to NCO- just the opposite happened here. All but one NCO- in the entire wing- went officer.

[RiverAux]

There is zero confusion between CAP ranks and other military ranks.  CAP rank only matters to CAP members.  The rank of members of the federal military while in uniform does matter to CAP members for C&C purposes only. 

I find that I have no trouble distinguishing the different ranks that I hold in different organizations and if anyone actually has trouble with it, I'd probably prefer that they leave CAP as they obviously have some problems.  It ain't that hard. 

Though as I am one that believes that CAP shouldn't give preferential treatment to members of any organization in terms of their CAP rank, I'm obviously biased.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Captain Whelan, I am probably unpromotable past my current rank of Captain.  My health issues preclude my meeting a lot of the requirements.

If I could switch to NCO and be promotable, with different requirements, I would do so in the blink of an eye.

However, I cannot because the cutoff is E-5...lower it to E-4 (SrA) and I'd be quite pleased to turn in my railway tracks and silver-braided flight cap.

[CAPAPRN]

Cyborg- the problem isn't that my NCO's didn't want to be NCO's- like you they wanted to- the problem was the design. I also have an E9 who is a Major and he is very critical of the new regulations. FYI, I was enlisted Navy before all else.

[JeffDG]

This is a really bad, Godwin's-Law evoking comparison, but I think it shows the two-tiered disconnect between CAP rank and serving military rank.

An AF SSgt accepts the grade of CAP SSgt.  However, SSgt Stripes is promoted to TSgt, and subsequently MSgt, in the Air Force (or ANG, or AFRES).  However,  SSgt Stripes may still be an SSgt in CAP, because s/he may not have met CAP requirements for promotion.  MSgt Stripes, USAF/AFRES/ANG, scratches his/her head over "what's wrong with this picture?"

Those of you who are history buffs know that in WWII, Hitler's personal band of merry thugs, the SS, had several different divisions, though nearly identical uniforms and ranks.

There was such a disconnect between the Allgemeine-SS ("general" SS, who mostly manned the death/concentration camps) and Waffen-SS ("armed" SS, the "battlefield" SS) that it was possible to hold wildly disparate ranks between the two.

If you were a member of both the Wf-SS and Alg-SS, you could hold such differing ranks as SS-Hauptsturmführer (captain) in the Wf-SS and Scharführer (approximately Sergeant) in the Alg-SS...thereby outranking yourself!

Then, of course, if you were also in the Gestapo or Ordnungspolizei, also controlled by the SS, you could have so many different ranks you wouldn't know which on-base club you could go in to trink ein Bier.

Of course, CAP is by no means the SS and I don't intend to infer that at all...my point is the confusion between what rank who holds where.

And then if you are also in the CGAUX (which has "offices," but with quasi-rank insignia), your SDF, etc., the confusion can be even worse.

This was by no means unique to Germany or the SS.

The US had a very similar arrangement.  The "Army of the United States" (AUS) was established during World War II (not to be confused with the US Army).  It was the "expeditionary force" that was in theater.  This led to many officers holding a permanent rank in the US Army, and a Theater rank in the AUS.  Eisenhower for example held a permanent rank of Colonel in the US Army, but as we all know, ended up as a General of the Army in the AUS.  At the end of the war, the AUS was disestablished and officers reverted to their permanent rank unless they were granted promotions within the regular army.

[catrulz]

Under Phase I - Recruitment would have been smoother if there had been a conversion matrix based on the former NCO's prior military service + their training and advancement to date in CAP.  Especially in light of the fact, that you won't allow them to wear their former grade until after 6 months, because they need experience in CAP.   Many former NCOs that might have been interested, may not be without credit for what they have already achieved in CAP.

Cyborg, that is exactly what I was talking about in my last paragraph.  You were an E-4 in the military, but you've achieved the rank of captain plus umpteen years of CAP service.  There should be a conversion matrix that 's based on CAP service + Military service for current members that want to convert to CAP NCO.

As a Captain that is Level 3 complete I would assume, I don't see why NHQ couldn't have generated a set of screening criteria for which to determine an NCO grade commensurate with both your military and CAP service together. 

[Eclipse]

Cyborg, that is exactly what I was talking about in my last paragraph.  You were an E-4 in the military, but you've achieved the rank of captain plus umpteen years of CAP service.  There should be a conversion matrix that 's based on CAP service + Military service for current members that want to convert to CAP NCO.

What, exact purpose would that solve in a CAP context?

How many officers in the active services would willingly convert to an NCO or enlisted grade unless
they were threatened with separation, or to take a very specific and coveted job?

[catrulz]

Cyborg, that is exactly what I was talking about in my last paragraph.  You were an E-4 in the military, but you've achieved the rank of captain plus umpteen years of CAP service.  There should be a conversion matrix that 's based on CAP service + Military service for current members that want to convert to CAP NCO.

What, exact purpose would that solve in a CAP context?

How many officers in the active services would willingly convert to an NCO or enlisted grade unless
they were threatened with separation, or to take a very specific and coveted job?

This is comment straight off the white paper.  I'm not saying it accomplishes anything.  However, the white paper does clearly state a set of objectives.  And his desire to swap meets one of those objectives.

Many say this is a solution without a problem.  Maybe.  But, why does a problem have to exist for the program to evolve.  Many units push cadets, too quickly into the cadet officer ranks, or simply don't allow cadet NCO's any opportunity to demonstrate leadership potential.  Having quality senior NCOs in every unit could teach cadets the value of the American military NCO.  I would say that is value added.

[Eclipse]

Cyborg, that is exactly what I was talking about in my last paragraph.  You were an E-4 in the military, but you've achieved the rank of captain plus umpteen years of CAP service.  There should be a conversion matrix that 's based on CAP service + Military service for current members that want to convert to CAP NCO.

What, exact purpose would that solve in a CAP context?

How many officers in the active services would willingly convert to an NCO or enlisted grade unless
they were threatened with separation, or to take a very specific and coveted job?

This is comment straight off the white paper.  I'm not saying it accomplishes anything.  However, the white paper does clearly state a set of objectives.  And his desire to swap meets one of those objectives.

Yes, the paper has objectives, however the majority of them are either based on a flawed premise, or are circular (i.e. we must have NCOs, because if we don't,
we won't have NCOs).

Beyond the same kind of meaningless rhetoric that the CAC pamphlet provides in regards to duty and purpose,
no one, literally none, has been able to articulate a single duty that members can perform only when wearing stripes,
even the program's most ardent supporters.

As part of a total reboot of the entirety of the grade and authority structure, there may be some value here,
but implemented piecemeal, this will only serve to waste a lot of time, and/or alienate a lot of members, reduce
the potential recruiting pool, and further divide the membership into a caste structure with ZERO BENEFIT.

Many say this is a solution without a problem.  Maybe.  But, why does a problem have to exist for the program to evolve.  Many units push cadets, too quickly into the cadet officer ranks, or simply don't allow cadet NCO's any opportunity to demonstrate leadership potential.  Having quality senior NCOs in every unit could teach cadets the value of the American military NCO.  I would say that is value added.

Please do not start the "NCO Experience" rhetoric.  Grade is primarily a time marker for cadets.  Few units have the
numbers to offer the legitimate follower and leader models for cadets in a grade-appropriate way, and most cadets
don't linger in a grade long enough to experience it, any way, especially in Phase 1 & 2.

[Al Sayre]

You may be surprised by the number of real military NCO's who also hold reserve commissions.  For example, when I went to MEPS, I was processed by an Army E-6 who administered my enlistment oath as an Reserve Army O-3.

I understand that this is because  when officers in the lower grades are R.I.F.'d they are (sometimes) given the opportunity to enlist at an advanced pay-grade, but simultaneously hold a reserve commission and will receive their retirement at the highest pay-grade attained.   

If the "real military" doesn't have a problem with simultaneously holding both officer and enlisted grade, why should we?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

As a Captain that is Level 3 complete I would assume, I don't see why NHQ couldn't have generated a set of screening criteria for which to determine an NCO grade commensurate with both your military and CAP service together.

Level 3, much of Level 4, and approximately the following years of service in CAP:

1993-2001
(1997-1999 unit Deputy Commander)

2004-2006

2007-Present

Others know of my issues with why I cannot/probably will not be promoted (mostly health-related), so I will not reiterate them here, though I can PM you if you like.

I would like warrant officer grades to be reinstated (the Air Force does not have them, so there would be no confusion) for those (like me) who are job-specific and have no desire/ability to run the show.  However, that will not happen.

[ZigZag911]

Here is the white paper.

And for the record....a White Paper is usually an a report to help the reader make a decision, understand an issue, or solve a problem.

Talking paper is sort of a condensed white paper.

The length of implementation makes a great deal of sense.

If I read this correctly, non-prior military NCO eligibility is at least 3 to 4 years away.

[lordmonar]

Here is the white paper.

And for the record....a White Paper is usually an a report to help the reader make a decision, understand an issue, or solve a problem.

Talking paper is sort of a condensed white paper.

The length of implementation makes a great deal of sense.

If I read this correctly, non-prior military NCO eligibility is at least 3 to 4 years away.

At least.   
We are still in phase I at this time.

[Eclipse]

We are still in phase I at this time.

So is Mars One.

[lordmonar]

Under Phase I - Recruitment would have been smoother if there had been a conversion matrix based on the former NCO's prior military service + their training and advancement to date in CAP.  Especially in light of the fact, that you won't allow them to wear their former grade until after 6 months, because they need experience in CAP.   Many former NCOs that might have been interested, may not be without credit for what they have already achieved in CAP.

You bring up a good point.  Do you have any ideas of what that matrix would look like?

[NCRblues]

I have said it before and I shall say it again...

With the change in command at NHQ, this pet project of the former CC will not progress much further.

We have seen a few items already be toned down, this will be no different.

CAP has so so many other issues on the table than worry about an "NCO corps" with very little (or none at all) purpose.

Missions, a real strategic direction, retention and recruiting, mainstream funding outside the line budget...