Letters of Admonishment or Reprimand?

[PHall]

You know RM, it has been "suggested" by a number of people now that CAP may not be for you. Yet you hang around and do nothing but complain.
Did you wear your welcome out everywhere else and we're the only place that will take you?

[RADIOMAN015]

RM, how does anyone put up with you around your area?

"The volunteers I know (and respect) aren't going out to do anything willful against CAP".... I'm pretty sure the people who knew pineda and respected him thought the same thing...till the day OSI and SF served the search warrents on him because he was cheating on AF controlled tests and lied on record about covering it up....

I think maybe its time you left the organization. I see nothing good EVER coming from you. I might have my arguments and disagreements with people on this forum, but i never question their dedication to CAP. I question yours all the time....

You agree to follow the orders of those placed above you in the chain of command. If your commander wants to discipline you, guess what, he can do so. You are free to walk away from the organization, and maybe that's what you SHOULD do.

[Ned]

Please cite any other organization that gives it's unpaid volunteers letters of admonishment or letters of reprimand and keeps an adverse action file.

Well, if it helps, I served as an unpaid reserve police officer for a lot of years in a large California city, and they most assuredly did use formal letters of reprimand and counseling which went into personnel files for varying lengths of time.

Indeed, they had quite an elaborate progressive discipline system that started with informal verbal counseling, formal verbal counseling (a brief log entry was kept), and various letters of counseling and reprimand.  In retrospect, it makes CAP's "system" look flexible and easy to administer.

And in many ways, the reserve police gig was like CAP.  Volunteer service, having to buy my own uniforms and equipment, and attending a lot of training at night and on the weekends.

And, now that I think of it, one or two people whining about how we were only "RESERVE police officers" and that many of us were "wanna bees" in the LE community, and how we shouldn't be compared to the full-time officers.  (Even though we had full police powers, rode alone in police cars answering radio calls, making arrests, etc., in an effort to help our community.)

Must be just a coincidence.

[RADIOMAN015]

That's just about looks like the military evaluation forms that are used.  So now on top of all the other administrative "mumbo jumbo" that units have to do, you are proposing that a form 40 be filled out on every person    

This coming from the same troll that proposed we track every single in-kind donation for zero net benefit.

I'm not trolling at all, I'm offering my personal opinion.  Apparently you aren't opened minded

Well the "donation inkind" was a separate topic area already addressed.  I disagree with the CPA firm.  We do need to know the 'true' cost of our program support at the unit level.  I know of a situation right now brewing where this "donated in kind " support is going to disappear in the future, so the volunteer providing this is going to have to be asked how much was spent on that support over a 1 year period because we will now have to fund it with squadron funds, likely somewhere around $200 to 300 more per year or put it this way 3 to 5 senior members total yearly dues to now provide this support.   

As to the above form, I firmly believe it's too much of an added administrative burden to do for every adult member in the unit.  HOWEVER, there's a separate topic on this so perhaps it should be addressed in that topic area.
RM           

[RADIOMAN015]

Please cite any other organization that gives it's unpaid volunteers letters of admonishment or letters of reprimand and keeps an adverse action file.

Well, if it helps, I served as an unpaid reserve police officer for a lot of years in a large California city, and they most assuredly did use formal letters of reprimand and counseling which went into personnel files for varying lengths of time.

Indeed, they had quite an elaborate progressive discipline system that started with informal verbal counseling, formal verbal counseling (a brief log entry was kept), and various letters of counseling and reprimand.  In retrospect, it makes CAP's "system" look flexible and easy to administer.

And in many ways, the reserve police gig was like CAP.  Volunteer service, having to buy my own uniforms and equipment, and attending a lot of training at night and on the weekends.

And, now that I think of it, one or two people whining about how we were only "RESERVE police officers" and that many of us were "wanna bees" in the LE community, and how we shouldn't be compared to the full-time officers.  (Even though we had full police powers, rode alone in police cars answering radio calls, making arrests, etc., in an effort to help our community.)

Must be just a coincidence.

Fair enough Ned -- BUT didn't those reserve police officers also have the opportunity for getting onto the regular police force   I know in my state they initially go to a part time academy and may be brought on as reserve "per diem" type officers.   Many towns/cities pretty much did away with the reserve unpaid roles due to some liability issues, involving carrying firearms (and the associated costs of recurring training for carrying firearms).   Surely IF someone is running around playing cop with a firearm strapped to his/her side I'm sure there's going to be some pretty strict regulations, and the cowboys(girls) will have to get weeded out pretty quickly.
RM   

[RiverAux]

I think to be fair to the member as well as the leadership, if you're going to have a process for kicking people out of an organization, you need to document the reasons leading up to it and something like this is necessary in many cases.  We don't have to worry about being sued over such things, but since members do have appeal rights it only makes sense to build your case using these.  Though, of course, it could be possible to get kicked out for a single incident that came out of the blue if it was bad enough. 

[davidsinn]

That's just about looks like the military evaluation forms that are used.  So now on top of all the other administrative "mumbo jumbo" that units have to do, you are proposing that a form 40 be filled out on every person    

This coming from the same troll that proposed we track every single in-kind donation for zero net benefit.

I'm not trolling at all, I'm offering my personal opinion.  Apparently you aren't opened minded

Well the "donation inkind" was a separate topic area already addressed.  I disagree with the CPA firm.  We do need to know the 'true' cost of our program support at the unit level.  I know of a situation right now brewing where this "donated in kind " support is going to disappear in the future, so the volunteer providing this is going to have to be asked how much was spent on that support over a 1 year period because we will now have to fund it with squadron funds, likely somewhere around $200 to 300 more per year or put it this way 3 to 5 senior members total yearly dues to now provide this support.   

As to the above form, I firmly believe it's too much of an added administrative burden to do for every adult member in the unit.  HOWEVER, there's a separate topic on this so perhaps it should be addressed in that topic area.
RM         

I'm open minded but I don't deal well with dumb stupid ideas. You complained about useless paperwork in this thread yet weeks ago you wanted to add countless hours and sheets of paper for zero benefit to the units. You are nothing but a troll. You always complain and denigrate this organization and it's members and it's getting real old.

[DakRadz]

Please cite any other organization that gives it's unpaid volunteers letters of admonishment or letters of reprimand and keeps an adverse action file.

Well, if it helps, I served as an unpaid reserve police officer for a lot of years in a large California city, and they most assuredly did use formal letters of reprimand and counseling which went into personnel files for varying lengths of time.

Indeed, they had quite an elaborate progressive discipline system that started with informal verbal counseling, formal verbal counseling (a brief log entry was kept), and various letters of counseling and reprimand.  In retrospect, it makes CAP's "system" look flexible and easy to administer.

And in many ways, the reserve police gig was like CAP.  Volunteer service, having to buy my own uniforms and equipment, and attending a lot of training at night and on the weekends.

And, now that I think of it, one or two people whining about how we were only "RESERVE police officers" and that many of us were "wanna bees" in the LE community, and how we shouldn't be compared to the full-time officers.  (Even though we had full police powers, rode alone in police cars answering radio calls, making arrests, etc., in an effort to help our community.)

Must be just a coincidence.

Fair enough Ned -- BUT didn't those reserve police officers also have the opportunity for getting onto the regular police force   I know in my state they initially go to a part time academy and may be brought on as reserve "per diem" type officers.   Many towns/cities pretty much did away with the reserve unpaid roles due to some liability issues, involving carrying firearms (and the associated costs of recurring training for carrying firearms).   Surely IF someone is running around playing cop with a firearm strapped to his/her side I'm sure there's going to be some pretty strict regulations, and the cowboys(girls) will have to get weeded out pretty quickly.
RM

My experience in CAP means that the USAF recruiter I went to talk with offered me advanced rank and pay and was eager to get me into the Air Force because the Mitchell is generally a good sign in a potential recruit as far as not backing out, knowing what their getting into, and being mature enough to at least join. I have a route into the USAF.  (Though I did decide USCG)

So.

[Ned]

Fair enough Ned -- BUT didn't those reserve police officers also have the opportunity for getting onto the regular police force   I know in my state they initially go to a part time academy and may be brought on as reserve "per diem" type officers.   Many towns/cities pretty much did away with the reserve unpaid roles due to some liability issues, involving carrying firearms (and the associated costs of recurring training for carrying firearms).   Surely IF someone is running around playing cop with a firearm strapped to his/her side I'm sure there's going to be some pretty strict regulations, and the cowboys(girls) will have to get weeded out pretty quickly.
RM

I agree that this kind of documentation is sometimes tied to liability-type issues.  After all, there is always going to be some adminstrative cost to establishing and maintaining these kinds of records, and that has to be balanced against some sort of value to the organization.

But isn't that kind of the point for CAP as well?  Aren't most - if not all  - seniors put in positions of significant responsibility over cadets, vehicles, aircraft, radios and other property, etc?

Most claims paid out by police departments aren't for dramatic things like people getting shot - the great majority are for things like vehicle accidents or property broken by officers doing their jobs.

Sound familiar?

[Hardshell Clam]

Surely IF someone is running around playing cop and military want to be's...

I am new here but this sort of talk sure tells you a lot about the person saying it.

Little respect and some other issues that I will not get into, but you have gone out of your way to offend others and I have to wonder why you are here? Are you that miserable or feel the the need to dump on others be validated?

The CAP is the AUX of the USAF and a quasi-military group. The CAP needs a way to remove or discipline
those who may need to be reinded in as it were, for the good order and moral of the unit. The USAF sets the rules and we must follow them. I think we should have an easier way to remove those who do nothing and complain.

If one can't accept this moving on might be a good move.

[EMT-83]

I think to be fair to the member as well as the leadership, if you're going to have a process for kicking people out of an organization, you need to document the reasons leading up to it and something like this is necessary in many cases.  We don't have to worry about being sued over such things, but since members do have appeal rights it only makes sense to build your case using these.  Though, of course, it could be possible to get kicked out for a single incident that came out of the blue if it was bad enough.

You can be sued by anyone, at any time, for anything.

I know of volunteer firefighters who have sued (and won) because they were improperly kicked out of a volunteer fire department.

I'm also aware of complaints being dismissed because proper procedures were followed and documentation kept. Perhaps one of the resident attorneys will chime in on the importance of treating members consistently, and maintaining documentation.

Personally, I'd like some guidance from NHQ on topics such as progressive discipline and record retention.

[caphornbuckle]

I really like CAP, and try to do my very best in radio communications, emergency services support, and public affairs.    I have no illusions that I am just a volunteer in the CIVIL AIR PATROL , and it is my SELF MOTIVATION that gets things done.  Not only do I help my squadron but also help my wing, and have also helped my region (cause no one else stepped forward to help), and I have been appropriately awarded for my efforts.   

CIVIL Air Patrol?  Can we get a new record?  This one seems to be broken.

Anyways, I feel that LOA's and LOR's can benefit CAP greatly.

1 - It reminds the member that their continued performance isn't appropriate for a professional organization.
2 - It keeps documentation on offences that are not quite a "slap on the wrist" but not quite a 2b either.
3 - That same documentation can be used to keep a track record in the event a 2b and/or an MARB review becomes necessary.
4 - The more written information you have about the member, the better evidence you have to show you have taken every opportunity you have to try to make that member a benefit to CAP.

Sometime a "kick in the rear" is all that's needed to get the person's attention.

[RADIOMAN015]

Fair enough Ned -- BUT didn't those reserve police officers also have the opportunity for getting onto the regular police force   I know in my state they initially go to a part time academy and may be brought on as reserve "per diem" type officers.   Many towns/cities pretty much did away with the reserve unpaid roles due to some liability issues, involving carrying firearms (and the associated costs of recurring training for carrying firearms).   Surely IF someone is running around playing cop with a firearm strapped to his/her side I'm sure there's going to be some pretty strict regulations, and the cowboys(girls) will have to get weeded out pretty quickly.
RM

I agree that this kind of documentation is sometimes tied to liability-type issues.  After all, there is always going to be some adminstrative cost to establishing and maintaining these kinds of records, and that has to be balanced against some sort of value to the organization.

But isn't that kind of the point for CAP as well?  Aren't most - if not all  - seniors put in positions of significant responsibility over cadets, vehicles, aircraft, radios and other property, etc?

Most claims paid out by police departments aren't for dramatic things like people getting shot - the great majority are for things like vehicle accidents or property broken by officers doing their jobs.

Sound familiar?

Ned, I am not totally against formally "counseling" of adult members or even for that matter placing them on a "temporary suspension" from coming to meetings or any activities, because sometimes people do things that they think are ok, but aren't and they are warned repeatedly (sometimes by other members first who become aware of what is happening) and finally action does have to be taken.  So this gives them a chance to think about it and decide IF CAP is for them.  I've even heard of one unit that had a member appear before the unit membership board, before being allowed to renew/retain membership, and some very specific stipulations were given to the individual.   

As far as vehicles go, I'm very surprised the corporation doesn't put GPS tracking devices in all corporate vehicles and also aircraft, with an appropriate alerting system when a standard/rule is violated.   (e.g. vehicle goes over posted speed limit (greater than 5-10 mph), vehicle crosses state border, vehicle is parked at an inappropriate location, vehicle is operate at an inappropriate time, not due to a mission, etc.).   Aircraft flight destination does not match what is on flight release.  (I use vehicle GPS tracking at work, and it's a great way to supervise the safe and economical operation of a fleet of vehicles).   Another way to do this is for CAP to get a subscription to one of those "How's My Driving" evaluation firms, that places a sticker with a distinct ID number on the back of the van with a toll free number.   With our vehicle & aircraft fleet size we really should have good control measures in place to ensure the assets are protected and we identify problems BEFORE they become a liability issue.  That LOA/LOR or even making a member pay doesn't do much if there's injuries that could have been prevented or the vehicle is destroyed, IF an appropriate control mechanism was in place before hand.       

HOWEVER, that being said, the American Red Cross will never require their volunteers to pay for any damage to a corporate vehicle, even if the operator is cited/responsible.  I think this shows the RESPECT that they have for their volunteers, and realize that accidents can happen and appropriate insurance coverage is obtained. 

Regarding property (e.g. radios) getting broken.  Accidents do happen, and the radios will go in for repair.  Again volunteers are not purposely breaking our radios.  On lost radio equipment, Not very may people at the squadron level in my wing are willing to accept the new EF Johnson portables, because they are just too expensive and no one wants the hassle if something happens.  So members have bought old motorola compliant portable FM portable equipment or we have some state funded  VHF-FM portables that are fully depreciated.  We still maintain strong asset control BUT again the perception is the volunteer always gets the short end of the stick with CAP, if something goes astray.   

Again, IF the NB wants to do the AF like unfavorable information file type system, at the very least the member master data file will need to have perhaps 1 or 2 alpha character fields in the master record (indicating the type of UIF file document(s), and a custodian will need to be appointed for keeping a copy of the original documentation.  Here's the AF regulation on it:  http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI36-2907.pdf   I just don't think the system is as easy to implement as envisioned by some members.   

Personally, I'm not sure this is worth the administrative effort at the unit level.  Perhaps there's a need for this at a higher level.  I personally feel at the unit level that first there should be a verbal warning, than a formal counseling session with a witness (and the member signs the counseling), and IF the violation(s) continue, than a mandatory suspension, with the member returning only when they are willing to sign a "cure letter".  If it doesn't work out, than it would be 2B.  I think in many instances, we really are talking about just putting the member to patron status, because they aren't showing up to the meeting/contributing any time, and it's likely that something else has overtaken their lives.  The unit commander also needs some flexibility on how long a member can stay away from any active meeting/activity before this decision is made, especially if the member is forthcoming with a valid reason why.
RM

             

[PHall]

RM, you might want to recheck your sources about the Red Cross.
They will make a volunteer pay for damages to vehicles if they are held "at fault" for causing the accident.
They will also make you pay if the damage is intentional.
Just because you're a "volunteer" does not relieve you of the responsibility to care for the equipment you are using.

[RADIOMAN015]

RM, you might want to recheck your sources about the Red Cross.
They will make a volunteer pay for damages to vehicles if they are held "at fault" for causing the accident.
They will also make you pay if the damage is intentional.
Just because you're a "volunteer" does not relieve you of the responsibility to care for the equipment you are using.

Might be something chapter specific, but the gentleman (who is also an amateur radio operator) has been a volunteer with them for years, and did check with them recently and it was reaffirmed that they are responsible for paying for everything, and he has no liability, regardless of who is at fault in a vehicle accident.   
It's crazy to think that ANY adult volunteer is going to intentional damage equipment or not care for equipment, whether it's with the Red Cross or CAP.  It's a straw man argument to somehow justify CAP lack of respect for it's dedicated volunteers, by making them shoulder the expense of vehicle repairs on even questionable accidents.  You won't see me driving a CAP vehicle anytime soon, I'm unwilling to take a chance with CAP's inconsistent BS, and again lack of respect for the volunteer, who is giving freely of his/her time in an authorized activity being controlled by CAP, and therefore, is kind of like an employee, not a user of a leased vehicle -- CAP can't have it both ways.  Willing to bet if a CAP National HQ paid employee wrecks a vehicle, I bet CAP Inc is paying for it, regardless of who's fault it is.
RM       

[caphornbuckle]

RM, you might want to recheck your sources about the Red Cross.
They will make a volunteer pay for damages to vehicles if they are held "at fault" for causing the accident.
They will also make you pay if the damage is intentional.
Just because you're a "volunteer" does not relieve you of the responsibility to care for the equipment you are using.

Might be something chapter specific, but the gentleman (who is also an amateur radio operator) has been a volunteer with them for years, and did check with them recently and it was reaffirmed that they are responsible for paying for everything, and he has no liability, regardless of who is at fault in a vehicle accident.   
It's crazy to think that ANY adult volunteer is going to intentional damage equipment or not care for equipment, whether it's with the Red Cross or CAP.  It's a straw man argument to somehow justify CAP lack of respect for it's dedicated volunteers, by making them shoulder the expense of vehicle repairs on even questionable accidents.  You won't see me driving a CAP vehicle anytime soon, I'm unwilling to take a chance with CAP's inconsistent BS, and again lack of respect for the volunteer, who is giving freely of his/her time in an authorized activity being controlled by CAP, and therefore, is kind of like an employee, not a user of a leased vehicle -- CAP can't have it both ways.  Willing to bet if a CAP National HQ paid employee wrecks a vehicle, I bet CAP Inc is paying for it, regardless of who's fault it is.
RM       

emphasis mine

RM - CAP can have it any way they want.  If you don't like it...quit.  This badmouthing CAP is really getting on my nerves.

[Eclipse]

It's crazy to think that ANY adult volunteer is going to intentional damage equipment or not care for equipment, whether it's with the Red Cross or CAP.

There is no way you are that naive. 

Willing to bet if a CAP National HQ paid employee wrecks a vehicle, I bet CAP Inc is paying for it, regardless of who's fault it is.

I'll take that bet any day.  CAP, Inc., is liable for the actions of their employees, and the lawyers would certainly go after an employee for damages resulting in from an accident where negligence, violation of the law, or similar are the cause.

[RADIOMAN015]

RM, you might want to recheck your sources about the Red Cross.
They will make a volunteer pay for damages to vehicles if they are held "at fault" for causing the accident.
They will also make you pay if the damage is intentional.
Just because you're a "volunteer" does not relieve you of the responsibility to care for the equipment you are using.

I'm unwilling to take a chance with CAP's inconsistent BS, and again lack of respect for the volunteer, who is giving freely of his/her time in an authorized activity being controlled by CAP, and therefore, is kind of like an employee, not a user of a leased vehicle -- CAP can't have it both ways.  Willing to bet if a CAP National HQ paid employee wrecks a vehicle, I bet CAP Inc is paying for it, regardless of who's fault it is.
RM       

emphasis mine

RM - CAP can have it any way they want.  If you don't like it...quit.  This badmouthing CAP is really getting on my nerves.

I've elected as a "volunteer" not to drive a CAP vehicle.  Sometimes there's not enough drivers available for wing wide exercises to drive the vans.  Oh well, that's what happens with poor policy decisions at the national level :angel:  I'm not going to quit, BUT will perform duties that I have an appropriate comfort level with.  That's what being a volunteer is about, in it's purist form.  I firmly believe IF some policy changes come about there would be more CAP drivers available.   You shouldn't let someone's opinion get on your nerves.  Remember this is CAPTALK, and we are all in the Civil Air Patrol :angel:
RM       

[AirDX]

Please cite any other organization that gives it's unpaid volunteers letters of admonishment or letters of reprimand and keeps an adverse action file.

My volunteer fire department in Virginia.  I was on the Driver Review Board, charged with reviewing and recommending action on any incidents involving drivers of our equipment.  We kept meticulous records, and the officers kept meticulous records of any disciplinary or retraining actions they took based on our recommendations.  Why?  Our insurance company looked very carefully at our driver training and standards - any shortcomings or laxness and the rates would go straight through the roof.

[NCRblues]

RM, you might want to recheck your sources about the Red Cross.
They will make a volunteer pay for damages to vehicles if they are held "at fault" for causing the accident.
They will also make you pay if the damage is intentional.
Just because you're a "volunteer" does not relieve you of the responsibility to care for the equipment you are using.

I'm unwilling to take a chance with CAP's inconsistent BS, and again lack of respect for the volunteer, who is giving freely of his/her time in an authorized activity being controlled by CAP, and therefore, is kind of like an employee, not a user of a leased vehicle -- CAP can't have it both ways.  Willing to bet if a CAP National HQ paid employee wrecks a vehicle, I bet CAP Inc is paying for it, regardless of who's fault it is.
RM       

emphasis mine

RM - CAP can have it any way they want.  If you don't like it...quit.  This badmouthing CAP is really getting on my nerves.

I've elected as a "volunteer" not to drive a CAP vehicle.  Sometimes there's not enough drivers available for wing wide exercises to drive the vans.  Oh well, that's what happens with poor policy decisions at the national level :angel:  I'm not going to quit, BUT will perform duties that I have an appropriate comfort level with.  That's what being a volunteer is about, in it's purist form.  I firmly believe IF some policy changes come about there would be more CAP drivers available.   You shouldn't let someone's opinion get on your nerves.  Remember this is CAPTALK, and we are all in the Civil Air Patrol :angel:
RM       

HOLY CRAP RM..... you are sooooooo just trolling now... come on. No one says " we are the CIVIL air patrol" that many times.

PLEASE EVERYONE, FOR YOUR OWN SAFTEY, DO NOT FEED THE TROLL ANYMORE. THAT IS ALL