Letters of Admonishment or Reprimand?

[RADIOMAN015]

Interestingly I noticed that the "Adverse Actions Committee" was talking about the retention of these documents in someones file.

Is this type of documentation of letters of A or R issued that often in CAP   I've never heard of anyone getting one of these and likely most volunteers subjected to this would just find something else to spend their time volunteering in.

I would think that if CAP is going to this length, they really need a regulation/policy that talks about progressive discipline e.g. verbal warning/counseling, written warning/counseling,  adverse action (e.g. formal letter of admonishment, reprimand, membership review board prior to renewal, etc).
RM   

[Flying Pig]

Or you could just do what I did as a CC.  "I dont think CAP is for you.  At least not here."

[RADIOMAN015]

Or you could just do what I did as a CC.  "I don't think CAP is for you.  At least not here."

Realistically, even what you do/did, really doesn't happen that often with senior members anyways  

Most senior members that have personality clashes with others or just don't like the unit organizational climate with usually just transfer or stop coming.   I would guess that the LOA's or LOR's are primarily issued to long term high ranking members, that may decide to stay around longer.   Also IF I remember correctly the AF has specific time limits that LOA's or LOR's remain in the airman/officer's unfavorable information file, so perhaps CAP needs to look at those retention periods.
RM 

[MICT1362]

LOR's/LOA's are great to accompany CAPF50's in cadets files.  I would say however that these should only be used following major incidents at activities such as encampments or NCSA's.  But there are occasions where they could be issued at the squadron level.  Not everybody needs one, but some do, and CAPF50's don't always do the job.

Medic-

[Flying Pig]

Or you could just do what I did as a CC.  "I don't think CAP is for you.  At least not here."

Realistically, even what you do/did, really doesn't happen that often with senior members anyways  

Most senior members that have personality clashes with others or just don't like the unit organizational climate with usually just transfer or stop coming.   I would guess that the LOA's or LOR's are primarily issued to long term high ranking members, that may decide to stay around longer.   Also IF I remember correctly the AF has specific time limits that LOA's or LOR's remain in the airman/officer's unfavorable information file, so perhaps CAP needs to look at those retention periods.
RM

Your absolutely right.  Only did it once. Most people are here for solid reasons and if someone would need to be approached I have to think the overwhelming majority of that very small minority would probably do whatever they needed to do to get back in the good graces.

[lordmonar]

Interestingly I noticed that the "Adverse Actions Committee" was talking about the retention of these documents in someones file.

Is this type of documentation of letters of A or R issued that often in CAP   I've never heard of anyone getting one of these and likely most volunteers subjected to this would just find something else to spend their time volunteering in.

I would think that if CAP is going to this length, they really need a regulation/policy that talks about progressive discipline e.g. verbal warning/counseling, written warning/counseling,  adverse action (e.g. formal letter of admonishment, reprimand, membership review board prior to renewal, etc).
RM   

Currently we have nothing to the bad or quesitonable behavior of our cadets or senior members.
I think we do need a systematic way of being able to admonish and reprimand our members, a way of keeping track of those actions, a way to challenge those actions and a way to clean the record if the situaiton warrents it.

If someone who gets an LOA and decides to quit over it......then maybe it is a good thing.  The whole point of an LOA/LOR system is to document substandard behavior.  Assumeing a perfect world where they are not abuses (see the need for a way of challenging them) any one who got an LOA or and LOR is substandard and would not be missed if he walked.

As it is now....we only have two real tools in our personnel managment tool bag...suspention and termination.   A formal LOA/LOR system would give us more tools to adjust substandard behavior and get on with the mission at hand.

[FW]

An "Adverse Action Guide" would go along way in formalizing the"progressive discipline" process.  It is important to realize the goal is to bring a member in line with the culture of Civil Air Patrol and not, steps to termination of membership.  IMHO, terminating a member is a failure in the program.  LOR's would be one of the last steps in the process; before suspension and membership termination. 

[flyboy53]

I've done LORs three times and copied higher headquarters each time. I had to use a military model, but it was the best way to either head off a 2b or document the actions leading to one.

[RADIOMAN015]

I've done LORs three times and copied higher headquarters each time. I had to use a military model, but it was the best way to either head off a 2b or document the actions leading to one.

Yep more "military wanna bee" stuff, hugh   Personally I would think a letter of correction would be something or even a memo for the record in which the adult leadership, e.g. commander and appropriate deputy commander (for seniors), discusses with the member the issues that are of concern and the member signs that memo and is also given a copy of it.   CAP doesn't have very much guidance on disciplinary type activities, as FW stated above.  When you start putting things in writing there needs to be guidance on retention periods for this, and it has to be "reasonable" in relation to what the actual offense was.

BTW did the 3 members who got the LOR's stay in, or did they tell you what you could do with those letters
RM   

[DakRadz]

I've done LORs three times and copied higher headquarters each time. I had to use a military model, but it was the best way to either head off a 2b or document the actions leading to one.

Yep more "military wanna bee" stuff, hugh   Personally I would think a letter of correction would be something or even a memo for the record in which the adult leadership, e.g. commander and appropriate deputy commander (for seniors), discusses with the member the issues that are of concern and the member signs that memo and is also given a copy of it.   CAP doesn't have very much guidance on disciplinary type activities, as FW stated above.  When you start putting things in writing there needs to be guidance on retention periods for this, and it has to be "reasonable" in relation to what the actual offense was.

BTW did the 3 members who got the LOR's stay in, or did they tell you what you could do with those letters
RM

HEY RM- Ooops, CAPS lock is annoying, huh?

No really though- you do realize that flyboy is retired from AFR, right? He's a BTDT guy. Not a wannabe.

What's a wanna bee, anyway? Are people allergic to that type?

[MSG Mac]

CAP just issued the CAPF 40 which is a great couseling tool. and should be used for all Senior Members to let them know how they're doing and what they need to do to progress within the unit, and CAP as a whole.

[RADIOMAN015]

CAP just issued the CAPF 40 which is a great couseling tool. and should be used for all Senior Members to let them know how they're doing and what they need to do to progress within the unit, and CAP as a whole.

That's just about looks like the military evaluation forms that are used.  So now on top of all the other administrative "mumbo jumbo" that units have to do, you are proposing that a form 40 be filled out on every person   OR just the ones that are the 'bad boys" get this filled out   Surely if someone is GETTING PAID one would expect some sort of an evaluation.   

I think this shows how much wasted volunteer time there is in CAP, formulating more military wanna bee BS rather than concentrating on formulating & implementing short, medium, and long range goals for the organization and effectively communicating them to the membership, so the organization goes somewhere. 

Lets say you get an evaluation that is bad, do you get to appeal that evaluation somewhere or is it is what it is   There's always going to be personality clashes in organizations, and when the current commander leaves and a new one comes in, how long does this bad evaluation stay in your file, forever    It seems to me that this form was made for those that are interested in participating in the quest for the highest corporate offices, such as wing, regional, CAP vice, or CAP national commander, and not the rank & file who have NO interest in such things but do want to contribute at the local level.   

I don't know about you, but volunteer management is about getting volunteers motivated to do more by stressing the positive things they are doing, NOT the negative things/or their short comings.  A squadron is staffed by who we get that walks though the door to "volunteer" and we have to use whatever their best abilities are to our advantage .  Granted I have done some selective recruiting for senior members in certain areas, in the past with very good results.

RM

[Eclipse]

^ Yep - we're all just one big, happy, HAM Club on a field day.

No expectations, no ramifications for failed performance, no disciplinary actions when people are negligent or willful.

Just do what you want, show up when you feel like it, and wear whatever you want.

[NCRblues]

RM, really?

Ok, it is time for the rule. You posted something bad about cap, now you must post 2 good things.... make it so

[MSG Mac]

CAP just issued the CAPF 40 which is a great counseling tool. and should be used for all Senior Members to let them know how they're doing and what they need to do to progress within the unit, and CAP as a whole.

That's just about looks like the military evaluation forms that are used.  So now on top of all the other administrative "mumbo jumbo" that units have to do, you are proposing that a form 40 be filled out on every person   OR just the ones that are the 'bad boys" get this filled out   Surely if someone is GETTING PAID one would expect some sort of an evaluation.   

I think this shows how much wasted volunteer time there is in CAP, formulating more military wanna bee BS rather than concentrating on formulating & implementing short, medium, and long range goals for the organization and effectively communicating them to the membership, so the organization goes somewhere. 

Lets say you get an evaluation that is bad, do you get to appeal that evaluation somewhere or is it is what it is   There's always going to be personality clashes in organizations, and when the current commander leaves and a new one comes in, how long does this bad evaluation stay in your file, forever    It seems to me that this form was made for those that are interested in participating in the quest for the highest corporate offices, such as wing, regional, CAP vice, or CAP national commander, and not the rank & file who have NO interest in such things but do want to contribute at the local level.   

I don't know about you, but volunteer management is about getting volunteers motivated to do more by stressing the positive things they are doing, NOT the negative things/or their short comings.  A squadron is staffed by who we get that walks though the door to "volunteer" and we have to use whatever their best abilities are to our advantage .  Granted I have done some selective recruiting for senior members in certain areas, in the past with very good results.

RM

To me, it means we can have an effective management tool that let's us sit down with a member and see how we're doing in our assigned duties, where we can improve, where we're meeting or exceeding the requirements, and where we can go from there. As far as it being a military form, this type of counseling is standard fare in almost every industry. When it comes down to initiating promotions or awards, it makes a good tool to document achievements and what was said or not said, when coming to these decisions.   

[RADIOMAN015]

^ Yep - we're all just one big, happy, HAM Club on a field day.

No expectations, no ramifications for failed performance, no disciplinary actions when people are negligent or willful.

Just do what you want, show up when you feel like it, and wear whatever you want.

Get real, this is a volunteer organization    Go join the military if you want give out all this disciplinary BS.    Frankly what you think is negligent just might not be seen the same by others that can be more objective. The volunteers I know (and respect) aren't going out to do anything willful against CAP.  Surely we have all that administrative mumbo jumbo that we have to spend our valuable limited volunteer time complying with.  Maybe everything won't be exactly correct, when the IG "checklist charlies" come in and inspect us; BUT most will give a strong effort to meet the intent of every program requirements.   

Although, I would think that for a very limited number in leadership positions, due to their demeanor and treatment of their volunteers, likely set themselves up for their members 'screwing with them", BUT likely it is more of a volunteer passive resistance by pulling back or limiting active participation or transferring somewhere else.  So those units faced with staffing issues and mission personnel available, likely have leadership problems that are contributing to the short falls.   Simply treat others the way you want to be treated goes a long way in any organization.             

As far as amateur "ham" radio is concerned, there's some volunteers that are very dedicated to disaster type support, including the NWS "sky warn" program, and have been doing that for many, many years on a local, regional, national, and even international basis  -- and are deserving of respect.   There's even military reservists/air reserve technicians and state police support personnel, that are involved in these programs in at least 4 of the counties in my state area that I'm aware of.  For the most part there really isn't any uniforms being worn by them except IF they are a CERT team member their may be a colored bright vest.   There's is some limited classroom type training involved (that can readily be put into use), (as well as weekly practical emergency communications practice nets both VHF repeater &  VHF simplex, and HF/SSB, so participants have a good understanding of what works, where) but other than getting licensed, it ain't like CAP's "train for the sake of training" programs, with little chance of use.     

BTW I've never heard of a CAP mission failing because someone decided to wear a golf shirt rather than one of our military type uniforms.  Personally, on fast emergency response requirements, I think a simple ANSI vest that says Civil Air Patrol on it is sufficient as a CAP uniform.     

Some of you actually believe that somehow someone that is going to be disciplined (with all this written documentation, LOA, LOR -- please cite the regulation that allows you to even do this and the format required, and the individuals response/rights, especially as it applies to CAP's compliance with all those discrimination laws) is actually going to stick around and take more of it.  Of course their not, and likely they will give you the "salute" you may be deserving of as they leave.  You can also bet they are going to talk down the program to everyone they meet
RM   

[NCRblues]

RM, how does anyone put up with you around your area?

"The volunteers I know (and respect) aren't going out to do anything willful against CAP".... I'm pretty sure the people who knew pineda and respected him thought the same thing...till the day OSI and SF served the search warrents on him because he was cheating on AF controlled tests and lied on record about covering it up....

I think maybe its time you left the organization. I see nothing good EVER coming from you. I might have my arguments and disagreements with people on this forum, but i never question their dedication to CAP. I question yours all the time....

You agree to follow the orders of those placed above you in the chain of command. If your commander wants to discipline you, guess what, he can do so. You are free to walk away from the organization, and maybe that's what you SHOULD do.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Surely we have all that administrative mumbo jumbo that we have to spend our valuable limited volunteer time complying with.  Maybe everything won't be exactly correct, when the IG "checklist charlies" come in and inspect us; BUT most will give a strong effort to meet the intent of every program requirements.   

And how is your wing IG supposed to find the the ones that don't "give a strong effort to meet the intent of every program requirements. "? Magic?

All of the checklists you seem to dislike are available to the squadrons / groups well ahead of an SUI.

[davidsinn]

That's just about looks like the military evaluation forms that are used.  So now on top of all the other administrative "mumbo jumbo" that units have to do, you are proposing that a form 40 be filled out on every person    

This coming from the same troll that proposed we track every single in-kind donation for zero net benefit.

[RADIOMAN015]

RM, how does anyone put up with you around your area?

I think maybe its time you left the organization. I see nothing good EVER coming from you. I might have my arguments and disagreements with people on this forum, but i never question their dedication to CAP. I question yours all the time....

You agree to follow the orders of those placed above you in the chain of command. If your commander wants to discipline you, guess what, he can do so. You are free to walk away from the organization, and maybe that's what you SHOULD do.

I really like CAP, and try to do my very best in radio communications, emergency services support, and public affairs.    I have no illusions that I am just a volunteer in the CIVIL AIR PATROL , and it is my SELF MOTIVATION that gets things done.  Not only do I help my squadron but also help my wing, and have also helped my region (cause no one else stepped forward to help), and I have been appropriately awarded for my efforts.   

One needs to be VERY careful in an unpaid all volunteer organization on using the "stick" approach versus the 'carrot' approach.   I think most "Commanders" (those mature adults placed in a leadership role) in CAP are very much attuned that treating all with respect and having an adult conversation with a member that has gone astray is the best approach rather than an LOA/LOR, adverse action file establishment.  Most leaders ask the member to do something, they don't tell (order) them and will likely also find out if there's any issues with getting done what they've asked to get done  (Why get surprised later ).   Please cite any other organization that gives it's unpaid volunteers letters of admonishment or letters of reprimand and keeps an adverse action file.  Again more "wanna bee BS" that the NB will spend lots of time on, that is likely unnecessary.   HOWEVER, I don't necessarily disagree with a written counseling signed by the member, especially IF the next step is to 2B the individual.  Also if someone is spoken to about a serious CAP regulation/policy infraction, there's nothing to prevent one from writing up a Memo for The Record on the verbal discussion and filing it.   

I will say it again -- I think some of you really live in a fantasy world of military make believe.  The organization will move forward only by properly recruiting, training, placing (in appropriate positions), and motivating the unpaid adult "civilian" volunteer force. 
RM           

[PHall]

You know RM, it has been "suggested" by a number of people now that CAP may not be for you. Yet you hang around and do nothing but complain.
Did you wear your welcome out everywhere else and we're the only place that will take you?

[RADIOMAN015]

RM, how does anyone put up with you around your area?

"The volunteers I know (and respect) aren't going out to do anything willful against CAP".... I'm pretty sure the people who knew pineda and respected him thought the same thing...till the day OSI and SF served the search warrents on him because he was cheating on AF controlled tests and lied on record about covering it up....

I think maybe its time you left the organization. I see nothing good EVER coming from you. I might have my arguments and disagreements with people on this forum, but i never question their dedication to CAP. I question yours all the time....

You agree to follow the orders of those placed above you in the chain of command. If your commander wants to discipline you, guess what, he can do so. You are free to walk away from the organization, and maybe that's what you SHOULD do.

[Ned]

Please cite any other organization that gives it's unpaid volunteers letters of admonishment or letters of reprimand and keeps an adverse action file.

Well, if it helps, I served as an unpaid reserve police officer for a lot of years in a large California city, and they most assuredly did use formal letters of reprimand and counseling which went into personnel files for varying lengths of time.

Indeed, they had quite an elaborate progressive discipline system that started with informal verbal counseling, formal verbal counseling (a brief log entry was kept), and various letters of counseling and reprimand.  In retrospect, it makes CAP's "system" look flexible and easy to administer.

And in many ways, the reserve police gig was like CAP.  Volunteer service, having to buy my own uniforms and equipment, and attending a lot of training at night and on the weekends.

And, now that I think of it, one or two people whining about how we were only "RESERVE police officers" and that many of us were "wanna bees" in the LE community, and how we shouldn't be compared to the full-time officers.  (Even though we had full police powers, rode alone in police cars answering radio calls, making arrests, etc., in an effort to help our community.)

Must be just a coincidence.

[RADIOMAN015]

That's just about looks like the military evaluation forms that are used.  So now on top of all the other administrative "mumbo jumbo" that units have to do, you are proposing that a form 40 be filled out on every person    

This coming from the same troll that proposed we track every single in-kind donation for zero net benefit.

I'm not trolling at all, I'm offering my personal opinion.  Apparently you aren't opened minded

Well the "donation inkind" was a separate topic area already addressed.  I disagree with the CPA firm.  We do need to know the 'true' cost of our program support at the unit level.  I know of a situation right now brewing where this "donated in kind " support is going to disappear in the future, so the volunteer providing this is going to have to be asked how much was spent on that support over a 1 year period because we will now have to fund it with squadron funds, likely somewhere around $200 to 300 more per year or put it this way 3 to 5 senior members total yearly dues to now provide this support.   

As to the above form, I firmly believe it's too much of an added administrative burden to do for every adult member in the unit.  HOWEVER, there's a separate topic on this so perhaps it should be addressed in that topic area.
RM           

[RADIOMAN015]

Please cite any other organization that gives it's unpaid volunteers letters of admonishment or letters of reprimand and keeps an adverse action file.

Well, if it helps, I served as an unpaid reserve police officer for a lot of years in a large California city, and they most assuredly did use formal letters of reprimand and counseling which went into personnel files for varying lengths of time.

Indeed, they had quite an elaborate progressive discipline system that started with informal verbal counseling, formal verbal counseling (a brief log entry was kept), and various letters of counseling and reprimand.  In retrospect, it makes CAP's "system" look flexible and easy to administer.

And in many ways, the reserve police gig was like CAP.  Volunteer service, having to buy my own uniforms and equipment, and attending a lot of training at night and on the weekends.

And, now that I think of it, one or two people whining about how we were only "RESERVE police officers" and that many of us were "wanna bees" in the LE community, and how we shouldn't be compared to the full-time officers.  (Even though we had full police powers, rode alone in police cars answering radio calls, making arrests, etc., in an effort to help our community.)

Must be just a coincidence.

Fair enough Ned -- BUT didn't those reserve police officers also have the opportunity for getting onto the regular police force   I know in my state they initially go to a part time academy and may be brought on as reserve "per diem" type officers.   Many towns/cities pretty much did away with the reserve unpaid roles due to some liability issues, involving carrying firearms (and the associated costs of recurring training for carrying firearms).   Surely IF someone is running around playing cop with a firearm strapped to his/her side I'm sure there's going to be some pretty strict regulations, and the cowboys(girls) will have to get weeded out pretty quickly.
RM   

[RiverAux]

I think to be fair to the member as well as the leadership, if you're going to have a process for kicking people out of an organization, you need to document the reasons leading up to it and something like this is necessary in many cases.  We don't have to worry about being sued over such things, but since members do have appeal rights it only makes sense to build your case using these.  Though, of course, it could be possible to get kicked out for a single incident that came out of the blue if it was bad enough. 

[davidsinn]

That's just about looks like the military evaluation forms that are used.  So now on top of all the other administrative "mumbo jumbo" that units have to do, you are proposing that a form 40 be filled out on every person    

This coming from the same troll that proposed we track every single in-kind donation for zero net benefit.

I'm not trolling at all, I'm offering my personal opinion.  Apparently you aren't opened minded

Well the "donation inkind" was a separate topic area already addressed.  I disagree with the CPA firm.  We do need to know the 'true' cost of our program support at the unit level.  I know of a situation right now brewing where this "donated in kind " support is going to disappear in the future, so the volunteer providing this is going to have to be asked how much was spent on that support over a 1 year period because we will now have to fund it with squadron funds, likely somewhere around $200 to 300 more per year or put it this way 3 to 5 senior members total yearly dues to now provide this support.   

As to the above form, I firmly believe it's too much of an added administrative burden to do for every adult member in the unit.  HOWEVER, there's a separate topic on this so perhaps it should be addressed in that topic area.
RM         

I'm open minded but I don't deal well with dumb stupid ideas. You complained about useless paperwork in this thread yet weeks ago you wanted to add countless hours and sheets of paper for zero benefit to the units. You are nothing but a troll. You always complain and denigrate this organization and it's members and it's getting real old.

[DakRadz]

Please cite any other organization that gives it's unpaid volunteers letters of admonishment or letters of reprimand and keeps an adverse action file.

Well, if it helps, I served as an unpaid reserve police officer for a lot of years in a large California city, and they most assuredly did use formal letters of reprimand and counseling which went into personnel files for varying lengths of time.

Indeed, they had quite an elaborate progressive discipline system that started with informal verbal counseling, formal verbal counseling (a brief log entry was kept), and various letters of counseling and reprimand.  In retrospect, it makes CAP's "system" look flexible and easy to administer.

And in many ways, the reserve police gig was like CAP.  Volunteer service, having to buy my own uniforms and equipment, and attending a lot of training at night and on the weekends.

And, now that I think of it, one or two people whining about how we were only "RESERVE police officers" and that many of us were "wanna bees" in the LE community, and how we shouldn't be compared to the full-time officers.  (Even though we had full police powers, rode alone in police cars answering radio calls, making arrests, etc., in an effort to help our community.)

Must be just a coincidence.

Fair enough Ned -- BUT didn't those reserve police officers also have the opportunity for getting onto the regular police force   I know in my state they initially go to a part time academy and may be brought on as reserve "per diem" type officers.   Many towns/cities pretty much did away with the reserve unpaid roles due to some liability issues, involving carrying firearms (and the associated costs of recurring training for carrying firearms).   Surely IF someone is running around playing cop with a firearm strapped to his/her side I'm sure there's going to be some pretty strict regulations, and the cowboys(girls) will have to get weeded out pretty quickly.
RM

My experience in CAP means that the USAF recruiter I went to talk with offered me advanced rank and pay and was eager to get me into the Air Force because the Mitchell is generally a good sign in a potential recruit as far as not backing out, knowing what their getting into, and being mature enough to at least join. I have a route into the USAF.  (Though I did decide USCG)

So.

[Ned]

Fair enough Ned -- BUT didn't those reserve police officers also have the opportunity for getting onto the regular police force   I know in my state they initially go to a part time academy and may be brought on as reserve "per diem" type officers.   Many towns/cities pretty much did away with the reserve unpaid roles due to some liability issues, involving carrying firearms (and the associated costs of recurring training for carrying firearms).   Surely IF someone is running around playing cop with a firearm strapped to his/her side I'm sure there's going to be some pretty strict regulations, and the cowboys(girls) will have to get weeded out pretty quickly.
RM

I agree that this kind of documentation is sometimes tied to liability-type issues.  After all, there is always going to be some adminstrative cost to establishing and maintaining these kinds of records, and that has to be balanced against some sort of value to the organization.

But isn't that kind of the point for CAP as well?  Aren't most - if not all  - seniors put in positions of significant responsibility over cadets, vehicles, aircraft, radios and other property, etc?

Most claims paid out by police departments aren't for dramatic things like people getting shot - the great majority are for things like vehicle accidents or property broken by officers doing their jobs.

Sound familiar?

[Hardshell Clam]

Surely IF someone is running around playing cop and military want to be's...

I am new here but this sort of talk sure tells you a lot about the person saying it.

Little respect and some other issues that I will not get into, but you have gone out of your way to offend others and I have to wonder why you are here? Are you that miserable or feel the the need to dump on others be validated?

The CAP is the AUX of the USAF and a quasi-military group. The CAP needs a way to remove or discipline
those who may need to be reinded in as it were, for the good order and moral of the unit. The USAF sets the rules and we must follow them. I think we should have an easier way to remove those who do nothing and complain.

If one can't accept this moving on might be a good move.

[EMT-83]

I think to be fair to the member as well as the leadership, if you're going to have a process for kicking people out of an organization, you need to document the reasons leading up to it and something like this is necessary in many cases.  We don't have to worry about being sued over such things, but since members do have appeal rights it only makes sense to build your case using these.  Though, of course, it could be possible to get kicked out for a single incident that came out of the blue if it was bad enough.

You can be sued by anyone, at any time, for anything.

I know of volunteer firefighters who have sued (and won) because they were improperly kicked out of a volunteer fire department.

I'm also aware of complaints being dismissed because proper procedures were followed and documentation kept. Perhaps one of the resident attorneys will chime in on the importance of treating members consistently, and maintaining documentation.

Personally, I'd like some guidance from NHQ on topics such as progressive discipline and record retention.

[caphornbuckle]

I really like CAP, and try to do my very best in radio communications, emergency services support, and public affairs.    I have no illusions that I am just a volunteer in the CIVIL AIR PATROL , and it is my SELF MOTIVATION that gets things done.  Not only do I help my squadron but also help my wing, and have also helped my region (cause no one else stepped forward to help), and I have been appropriately awarded for my efforts.   

CIVIL Air Patrol?  Can we get a new record?  This one seems to be broken.

Anyways, I feel that LOA's and LOR's can benefit CAP greatly.

1 - It reminds the member that their continued performance isn't appropriate for a professional organization.
2 - It keeps documentation on offences that are not quite a "slap on the wrist" but not quite a 2b either.
3 - That same documentation can be used to keep a track record in the event a 2b and/or an MARB review becomes necessary.
4 - The more written information you have about the member, the better evidence you have to show you have taken every opportunity you have to try to make that member a benefit to CAP.

Sometime a "kick in the rear" is all that's needed to get the person's attention.

[RADIOMAN015]

Fair enough Ned -- BUT didn't those reserve police officers also have the opportunity for getting onto the regular police force   I know in my state they initially go to a part time academy and may be brought on as reserve "per diem" type officers.   Many towns/cities pretty much did away with the reserve unpaid roles due to some liability issues, involving carrying firearms (and the associated costs of recurring training for carrying firearms).   Surely IF someone is running around playing cop with a firearm strapped to his/her side I'm sure there's going to be some pretty strict regulations, and the cowboys(girls) will have to get weeded out pretty quickly.
RM

I agree that this kind of documentation is sometimes tied to liability-type issues.  After all, there is always going to be some adminstrative cost to establishing and maintaining these kinds of records, and that has to be balanced against some sort of value to the organization.

But isn't that kind of the point for CAP as well?  Aren't most - if not all  - seniors put in positions of significant responsibility over cadets, vehicles, aircraft, radios and other property, etc?

Most claims paid out by police departments aren't for dramatic things like people getting shot - the great majority are for things like vehicle accidents or property broken by officers doing their jobs.

Sound familiar?

Ned, I am not totally against formally "counseling" of adult members or even for that matter placing them on a "temporary suspension" from coming to meetings or any activities, because sometimes people do things that they think are ok, but aren't and they are warned repeatedly (sometimes by other members first who become aware of what is happening) and finally action does have to be taken.  So this gives them a chance to think about it and decide IF CAP is for them.  I've even heard of one unit that had a member appear before the unit membership board, before being allowed to renew/retain membership, and some very specific stipulations were given to the individual.   

As far as vehicles go, I'm very surprised the corporation doesn't put GPS tracking devices in all corporate vehicles and also aircraft, with an appropriate alerting system when a standard/rule is violated.   (e.g. vehicle goes over posted speed limit (greater than 5-10 mph), vehicle crosses state border, vehicle is parked at an inappropriate location, vehicle is operate at an inappropriate time, not due to a mission, etc.).   Aircraft flight destination does not match what is on flight release.  (I use vehicle GPS tracking at work, and it's a great way to supervise the safe and economical operation of a fleet of vehicles).   Another way to do this is for CAP to get a subscription to one of those "How's My Driving" evaluation firms, that places a sticker with a distinct ID number on the back of the van with a toll free number.   With our vehicle & aircraft fleet size we really should have good control measures in place to ensure the assets are protected and we identify problems BEFORE they become a liability issue.  That LOA/LOR or even making a member pay doesn't do much if there's injuries that could have been prevented or the vehicle is destroyed, IF an appropriate control mechanism was in place before hand.       

HOWEVER, that being said, the American Red Cross will never require their volunteers to pay for any damage to a corporate vehicle, even if the operator is cited/responsible.  I think this shows the RESPECT that they have for their volunteers, and realize that accidents can happen and appropriate insurance coverage is obtained. 

Regarding property (e.g. radios) getting broken.  Accidents do happen, and the radios will go in for repair.  Again volunteers are not purposely breaking our radios.  On lost radio equipment, Not very may people at the squadron level in my wing are willing to accept the new EF Johnson portables, because they are just too expensive and no one wants the hassle if something happens.  So members have bought old motorola compliant portable FM portable equipment or we have some state funded  VHF-FM portables that are fully depreciated.  We still maintain strong asset control BUT again the perception is the volunteer always gets the short end of the stick with CAP, if something goes astray.   

Again, IF the NB wants to do the AF like unfavorable information file type system, at the very least the member master data file will need to have perhaps 1 or 2 alpha character fields in the master record (indicating the type of UIF file document(s), and a custodian will need to be appointed for keeping a copy of the original documentation.  Here's the AF regulation on it:  http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI36-2907.pdf   I just don't think the system is as easy to implement as envisioned by some members.   

Personally, I'm not sure this is worth the administrative effort at the unit level.  Perhaps there's a need for this at a higher level.  I personally feel at the unit level that first there should be a verbal warning, than a formal counseling session with a witness (and the member signs the counseling), and IF the violation(s) continue, than a mandatory suspension, with the member returning only when they are willing to sign a "cure letter".  If it doesn't work out, than it would be 2B.  I think in many instances, we really are talking about just putting the member to patron status, because they aren't showing up to the meeting/contributing any time, and it's likely that something else has overtaken their lives.  The unit commander also needs some flexibility on how long a member can stay away from any active meeting/activity before this decision is made, especially if the member is forthcoming with a valid reason why.
RM

             

[PHall]

RM, you might want to recheck your sources about the Red Cross.
They will make a volunteer pay for damages to vehicles if they are held "at fault" for causing the accident.
They will also make you pay if the damage is intentional.
Just because you're a "volunteer" does not relieve you of the responsibility to care for the equipment you are using.

[RADIOMAN015]

RM, you might want to recheck your sources about the Red Cross.
They will make a volunteer pay for damages to vehicles if they are held "at fault" for causing the accident.
They will also make you pay if the damage is intentional.
Just because you're a "volunteer" does not relieve you of the responsibility to care for the equipment you are using.

Might be something chapter specific, but the gentleman (who is also an amateur radio operator) has been a volunteer with them for years, and did check with them recently and it was reaffirmed that they are responsible for paying for everything, and he has no liability, regardless of who is at fault in a vehicle accident.   
It's crazy to think that ANY adult volunteer is going to intentional damage equipment or not care for equipment, whether it's with the Red Cross or CAP.  It's a straw man argument to somehow justify CAP lack of respect for it's dedicated volunteers, by making them shoulder the expense of vehicle repairs on even questionable accidents.  You won't see me driving a CAP vehicle anytime soon, I'm unwilling to take a chance with CAP's inconsistent BS, and again lack of respect for the volunteer, who is giving freely of his/her time in an authorized activity being controlled by CAP, and therefore, is kind of like an employee, not a user of a leased vehicle -- CAP can't have it both ways.  Willing to bet if a CAP National HQ paid employee wrecks a vehicle, I bet CAP Inc is paying for it, regardless of who's fault it is.
RM       

[caphornbuckle]

RM, you might want to recheck your sources about the Red Cross.
They will make a volunteer pay for damages to vehicles if they are held "at fault" for causing the accident.
They will also make you pay if the damage is intentional.
Just because you're a "volunteer" does not relieve you of the responsibility to care for the equipment you are using.

Might be something chapter specific, but the gentleman (who is also an amateur radio operator) has been a volunteer with them for years, and did check with them recently and it was reaffirmed that they are responsible for paying for everything, and he has no liability, regardless of who is at fault in a vehicle accident.   
It's crazy to think that ANY adult volunteer is going to intentional damage equipment or not care for equipment, whether it's with the Red Cross or CAP.  It's a straw man argument to somehow justify CAP lack of respect for it's dedicated volunteers, by making them shoulder the expense of vehicle repairs on even questionable accidents.  You won't see me driving a CAP vehicle anytime soon, I'm unwilling to take a chance with CAP's inconsistent BS, and again lack of respect for the volunteer, who is giving freely of his/her time in an authorized activity being controlled by CAP, and therefore, is kind of like an employee, not a user of a leased vehicle -- CAP can't have it both ways.  Willing to bet if a CAP National HQ paid employee wrecks a vehicle, I bet CAP Inc is paying for it, regardless of who's fault it is.
RM       

emphasis mine

RM - CAP can have it any way they want.  If you don't like it...quit.  This badmouthing CAP is really getting on my nerves.

[Eclipse]

It's crazy to think that ANY adult volunteer is going to intentional damage equipment or not care for equipment, whether it's with the Red Cross or CAP.

There is no way you are that naive. 

Willing to bet if a CAP National HQ paid employee wrecks a vehicle, I bet CAP Inc is paying for it, regardless of who's fault it is.

I'll take that bet any day.  CAP, Inc., is liable for the actions of their employees, and the lawyers would certainly go after an employee for damages resulting in from an accident where negligence, violation of the law, or similar are the cause.

[RADIOMAN015]

RM, you might want to recheck your sources about the Red Cross.
They will make a volunteer pay for damages to vehicles if they are held "at fault" for causing the accident.
They will also make you pay if the damage is intentional.
Just because you're a "volunteer" does not relieve you of the responsibility to care for the equipment you are using.

I'm unwilling to take a chance with CAP's inconsistent BS, and again lack of respect for the volunteer, who is giving freely of his/her time in an authorized activity being controlled by CAP, and therefore, is kind of like an employee, not a user of a leased vehicle -- CAP can't have it both ways.  Willing to bet if a CAP National HQ paid employee wrecks a vehicle, I bet CAP Inc is paying for it, regardless of who's fault it is.
RM       

emphasis mine

RM - CAP can have it any way they want.  If you don't like it...quit.  This badmouthing CAP is really getting on my nerves.

I've elected as a "volunteer" not to drive a CAP vehicle.  Sometimes there's not enough drivers available for wing wide exercises to drive the vans.  Oh well, that's what happens with poor policy decisions at the national level :angel:  I'm not going to quit, BUT will perform duties that I have an appropriate comfort level with.  That's what being a volunteer is about, in it's purist form.  I firmly believe IF some policy changes come about there would be more CAP drivers available.   You shouldn't let someone's opinion get on your nerves.  Remember this is CAPTALK, and we are all in the Civil Air Patrol :angel:
RM       

[AirDX]

Please cite any other organization that gives it's unpaid volunteers letters of admonishment or letters of reprimand and keeps an adverse action file.

My volunteer fire department in Virginia.  I was on the Driver Review Board, charged with reviewing and recommending action on any incidents involving drivers of our equipment.  We kept meticulous records, and the officers kept meticulous records of any disciplinary or retraining actions they took based on our recommendations.  Why?  Our insurance company looked very carefully at our driver training and standards - any shortcomings or laxness and the rates would go straight through the roof.

[NCRblues]

RM, you might want to recheck your sources about the Red Cross.
They will make a volunteer pay for damages to vehicles if they are held "at fault" for causing the accident.
They will also make you pay if the damage is intentional.
Just because you're a "volunteer" does not relieve you of the responsibility to care for the equipment you are using.

I'm unwilling to take a chance with CAP's inconsistent BS, and again lack of respect for the volunteer, who is giving freely of his/her time in an authorized activity being controlled by CAP, and therefore, is kind of like an employee, not a user of a leased vehicle -- CAP can't have it both ways.  Willing to bet if a CAP National HQ paid employee wrecks a vehicle, I bet CAP Inc is paying for it, regardless of who's fault it is.
RM       

emphasis mine

RM - CAP can have it any way they want.  If you don't like it...quit.  This badmouthing CAP is really getting on my nerves.

I've elected as a "volunteer" not to drive a CAP vehicle.  Sometimes there's not enough drivers available for wing wide exercises to drive the vans.  Oh well, that's what happens with poor policy decisions at the national level :angel:  I'm not going to quit, BUT will perform duties that I have an appropriate comfort level with.  That's what being a volunteer is about, in it's purist form.  I firmly believe IF some policy changes come about there would be more CAP drivers available.   You shouldn't let someone's opinion get on your nerves.  Remember this is CAPTALK, and we are all in the Civil Air Patrol :angel:
RM       

HOLY CRAP RM..... you are sooooooo just trolling now... come on. No one says " we are the CIVIL air patrol" that many times.

PLEASE EVERYONE, FOR YOUR OWN SAFTEY, DO NOT FEED THE TROLL ANYMORE. THAT IS ALL

[RADIOMAN015]

Surely IF someone is running around playing cop and military want to be's...

I am new here but this sort of talk sure tells you a lot about the person saying it.

Little respect and some other issues that I will not get into, but you have gone out of your way to offend others and I have to wonder why you are here? Are you that miserable or feel the the need to dump on others be validated?

The CAP is the AUX of the USAF and a quasi-military group. The CAP needs a way to remove or discipline
those who may need to be reinded in as it were, for the good order and moral of the unit. The USAF sets the rules and we must follow them. I think we should have an easier way to remove those who do nothing and complain.

If one can't accept this moving on might be a good move.

Gee I never said anywhere that I won't follow the AF regulations and the CAP implementation of those regulations.  Most of our volunteers do try their best.  Sometimes volunteers find that CAP isn't for them, and likely just stop showing up.  Ideally they talk with someone.  IF someone is violating regulation to a serious level or is convicted of certain crimes, there is a procedure already in the regulation to take action against them and remove them from membership (e.g. 2B).  That is subject to review and the member can appeal it.

The questions becomes how much more administrative mumbo jumbo do we really need to do.  Volunteers have limited time and need to spend that time productively.   You need to re read all the post on this especially the one about recruiting the right people, giving them the right training, and getting them interested in the right job.  These are not easy things to do.   Sometimes there has to be a compromise on one's expectations, based upon on what is available for staffing.  It's not a perfect world, and CAP is not a perfect organization.
RM   

[fyrfitrmedic]

RM, you might want to recheck your sources about the Red Cross.
They will make a volunteer pay for damages to vehicles if they are held "at fault" for causing the accident.
They will also make you pay if the damage is intentional.
Just because you're a "volunteer" does not relieve you of the responsibility to care for the equipment you are using.

I'm unwilling to take a chance with CAP's inconsistent BS, and again lack of respect for the volunteer, who is giving freely of his/her time in an authorized activity being controlled by CAP, and therefore, is kind of like an employee, not a user of a leased vehicle -- CAP can't have it both ways.  Willing to bet if a CAP National HQ paid employee wrecks a vehicle, I bet CAP Inc is paying for it, regardless of who's fault it is.
RM       

emphasis mine

RM - CAP can have it any way they want.  If you don't like it...quit.  This badmouthing CAP is really getting on my nerves.

I've elected as a "volunteer" not to drive a CAP vehicle.  Sometimes there's not enough drivers available for wing wide exercises to drive the vans.  Oh well, that's what happens with poor policy decisions at the national level :angel:  I'm not going to quit, BUT will perform duties that I have an appropriate comfort level with.  That's what being a volunteer is about, in it's purist form.  I firmly believe IF some policy changes come about there would be more CAP drivers available.   You shouldn't let someone's opinion get on your nerves.  Remember this is CAPTALK, and we are all in the Civil Air Patrol :angel:
RM       

HOLY CRAP RM..... you are sooooooo just trolling now... come on. No one says " we are the CIVIL air patrol" that many times.

PLEASE EVERYONE, FOR YOUR OWN SAFTEY, DO NOT FEED THE TROLL ANYMORE. THAT IS ALL

+1000

[Short Field]

No expectations, no ramifications for failed performance, no disciplinary actions when people are negligent or willful.
Just do what you want, show up when you feel like it, and wear whatever you want.

Visit my wing often?

[majdomke]

BUMP
I was just reading about this subject in the new UCC course materials. I haven't attended the course yet, still waiting for one to pop-up on a weekend I'm available. Even though it was just the student handbook it did give you a suggested progression for dealing with issues within the squadron. The subject would probably make for a good pamphlet that could be used with senior and cadet staff as a reference and tool. Perhaps examples of each type so you know how to do your own. That's what I came here looking for. Still looking. Perhaps Ned could write up this pamphlet since he did such a great job on the cadet protection one.

[lordmonar]

Before we come up with a pamplet........we (NHQ/NB) need to decide what we do with the letters after they are written.

Where are they stored?
Who can look at them?
How long do they remain the record?
How does a member appeal them?
What sort of decisions can be made off of them (promotions, assignements, activites, etc).

Otherwise I would love to have a pamplet or regulation to help guide our commanders.

[majdomke]

Agreed... there needs to be guidance from legal as well.

We already keep Form 50's in the cadet folders and I'm guessing we would also keep the form 40's in the seniors folders. The question is, how long? I've used a F50 to delay promoting a cadet to SSGT because the incident happened right before the PRB. I doubt I would do the same if the incident occurred some time back as cadets are constantly in flux and mature rapidly in the program. Certainly holding back a Mitchell award for something stupid done by a cadet when they were a non-NCO would seem inappropriate.

I've done letters of counseling where I just kept the letter in my drawer and destroyed it after the cadet made improvements. It's a good incentive for them not worry about one stupid mistake following them the rest of their career. Just look at how the AF handles the UIF for airmen... I assume officers have something similar. That stuff can follow you throughout your 20-30 yr career. Keeps you straight but one mistake as a young airman could cost you that chief slot many years down the road. Or so we were always led to believe.

[FW]

I always thought a LOR or LOA was an appropriate action a commander could take if needed however, now, I'm not sure.  It was recently brought to my attention that LORs were put in the file of a former wing commander and region commander for an action occurring over 13 years ago. 

At the time, the action these two distinguished members did was allowable. 

I won't go further into the details because, I don't want to embarrass those involved BUT, I know the LOR's were filed for purely political reasons. 

The point of my rant; to insure we fix our entire IG and adverse action guidelines before any further "disciplinary" moves are made.  It seems we are treating many members like cattle.  Members work hard and volunteer their time to the extent they feel most comfortable. IMO, we do not need the kind of BS which allowed the above to happen.

Our CAP is better than this.  I am ashamed this was allowed to happen.

[lordmonar]

All the more reason for getting this adverse action guide written and on to the streets ASAP.

We can't stop the politics when there is no guidance and no way to fight it.

On the other hand.....we do need a tool to document poor behavior so that we can correct substandard performance, behavior and a solid paper trail if we decide to cut our losses.

[lordmonar]

On the note that we should be offering clear ideas and suggestions:

The Adverse action guide should include:

A Chapter on the concepts and principles of good counseling techniques and the ideas of mentoring and adjusting behavior..(i.e. it is not just a "how to slam your troops" book).

A chapter on how to give and document verbal counseling.
A chapter on LOA's and LOR's
A chapter on removal from position (both cadets and SM)
A chapter on restrictions from activites (both cadets and SM)
A chapter on demotions (both cadtes and SM)
A chapter on membership suspenstion (both cadets and SM)
A chapter on membership termination
A chapter on where this documention is stored (the USAF calls them Unfaverable Information Files...My suggestion is that they are stored at wing for group/squadron personnel and National Wing and above).  Who has access to it and clear guadance on what they can use the information for.  A clear plan on how long the information is stored (may be six months, maybe forever).  How does a member challenge the UIF and how do they get the information removed.

If anyone is intrested in this project I would not be advers in setting up a working group to start writing the regluation/pamplet.

[majdomke]

This website is amazing... lots of good information that can be adapted to CAP
www.airforcewriter.com

[FW]

Patrick, all the guidelines, rules and, regulations are nothing if our leaders don't feel the ethical need to follow them. 

This is something which the governing body of CAP will need to deal with.  I can only hope it will be part of CAP's governance overhaul.

BTW; I think an adverse action guide is already in the pipeline.

[JC004]

This website is amazing... lots of good information that can be adapted to CAP
www.airforcewriter.com

I have that on my outline as something for my resources project.  I wasn't going to include much if anything on the reprimand stuff because there isn't guidance from National and idk...

Maybe I could, though.  Not sure.

[Has been]

Letters of repremand have several uses.

It is for an offense that does not quite come up to expulsion, demotion but some dicipline needs to be given. They are particularly effective for "you knew better or should have known better or are capable of better" situations. You can always have a sentence near the end stating that the letter should be removed from the file and distroyed if there are no further dicipline issues by a certain date. Forgiveness can be a powerful retention tool at any grade. Even mom ungrounded you after a while.

On the other hand if you are going to terminate a membership (particularly if you think the JA will need to be involved) the LOR can show a pattern of behavior, it can show progressive dicipline and it is a good place to record the facts so you won't have to count of memory a year or two down the road.