Cadet Advisory Counsil

[TEAM SURGE]

Hello,

I am very curious about the CAC. I would like to know about what they do! Can someone please give me some information!

Thanks!

C/Tsgt.Messman
Northwest Coastal Composite Flight!

[Camas]

Check CAPR 52-16 Chapter 3. Or check with 1st Lt Rust; your unit commander

[TEAM SURGE]

Check CAPR 52-16 Chapter 3. Or check with 1st Lt Rust; your unit commander

I would like to get your guys, view on it.

Who is this?

[AlphaSigOU]

Sgt Messman,

Also read CAP Pamphlet 52-19, Cadet Advisory Council Guide.

<--former chairman, Florida Wing Group 15 Cadet Advisory Council 1981-82

<-- former senior advisor, Texas Wing Cadet Advisory Council 2006-2008

[DC]

Google is your friend....

Read CAPR 52-19, find out who you squadron representative is, or if you don't have group CACs, then find out who your rep at Wing is, ask them whats going on.

See if your Wing CAC publishes its minutes and agendas, I know the FLWG CAC will allow interested cadets to sit in on and observe meetings, see if your wing does that too.

I spent two years as my squadron's rep to Group CAC, and it was very rewarding. If you have a Group CAC, and a squadron rep, see if you can become the alternate, you can sit in on meetings, add to the discussion, and vote in your Primary's absence.

[IceNine]

I was the ILWG Chairman,
And GLR Primary
Primary to ILWG
And various Alternate Positions
All in all I spent 6 years on CAC.

I found that the ability to be productive as a CAC is directly related to the Commander that you are advising, but more importantly the ability of your Senior Advisor to help you sell the products you are introducing.

What I mean by that is in a typical situation the Senior Advisor reports to the DCP, with a back door relationship to the Wing/CC.  If they use those 2 relationships and back the CAC accordingly you will have little issue getting things changed.

But it also has a correlation to the quality of the changes you are trying to make. 

Remember that CAC is an by its very title and ADVISORY board and you will simply be making suggestions to the senior staff for recommended changes within the cadet program

The one area we found that will immediately shoot you down and most likely affect your ability to influence change in the future is to even tamper with the idea of affecting change in the Senior program.  So I guess more directly don't discuss the way that Seniors interact with the cadet program and you should have little trouble getting necessary changes approved in due time.

It will be one of the more rewarding duties you ever do if you can keep your head up and push on despite shot down suggestions.

[TEAM SURGE]

I was the ILWG Chairman,
And GLR Primary
Primary to ILWG
And various Alternate Positions
All in all I spent 6 years on CAC.

I found that the ability to be productive as a CAC is directly related to the Commander that you are advising, but more importantly the ability of your Senior Advisor to help you sell the products you are introducing.

What I mean by that is in a typical situation the Senior Advisor reports to the DCP, with a back door relationship to the Wing/CC.  If they use those 2 relationships and back the CAC accordingly you will have little issue getting things changed.

But it also has a correlation to the quality of the changes you are trying to make. 

Remember that CAC is an by its very title and ADVISORY board and you will simply be making suggestions to the senior staff for recommended changes within the cadet program

The one area we found that will immediately shoot you down and most likely affect your ability to influence change in the future is to even tamper with the idea of affecting change in the Senior program.  So I guess more directly don't discuss the way that Seniors interact with the cadet program and you should have little trouble getting necessary changes approved in due time.

It will be one of the more rewarding duties you ever do if you can keep your head up and push on despite shot down suggestions.

Awesome! Thanks a lot. I read the section CAPR 52-19. I understand now.

[rightstuffpilot]

C/TSgt Messman,
Cadet Advisory Council is your best link between you and group, wing, region, or national staff (depending on the echelon).  Cadet Advisory Council has no official power to make changes to regulations, but often CAC decisions are highly considered by command staff.  Check out www.ncac.us .  If you have any more questions feel free to PM me.

[Camas]

Before worrying about CAC you might want to consider renewing your CAP membership. First things first!   

[TEAM SURGE]

Before worrying about CAC you might want to consider renewing your CAP membership. First things first!   

Good point! 

[CAP006]

This is C/2d Lt. Robert Dahms
Primary CAC rep. for MER-NC-023

I personally love the CAC and a word of addvice, I would learn as much as possible about CAP and it will help you enormously!

[TEAM SURGE]

This is C/2d Lt. Robert Dahms
Primary CAC rep. for MER-NC-023

I personally love the CAC and a word of addvice, I would learn as much as possible about CAP and it will help you enormously!

That is one thing I have been doing recently!

[Eclipse]

I personally love the CAC...

Why?

[DNall]

does it love you back?

I've worked with CAC off & on over a couple three year period. It's just difficult with our large geographic group to actually get people together on a regular enough basis to make anything happen.

Also, our CAC does some advising I guess, but mostly it plans/conducts Gp cadet activities/pgms.

[JayT]

does it love you back?

I've worked with CAC off & on over a couple three year period. It's just difficult with our large geographic group to actually get people together on a regular enough basis to make anything happen.

Also, our CAC does some advising I guess, but mostly it plans/conducts Gp cadet activities/pgms.

Then it's not doing it's job. I'll never understand why certain Group CP officers see appeal is getting a bunch of junior or middle type cadets together in a room to say "Plan a SAREX you're in charge of in a month."

[Eclipse]

does it love you back?

I've worked with CAC off & on over a couple three year period. It's just difficult with our large geographic group to actually get people together on a regular enough basis to make anything happen.

Also, our CAC does some advising I guess, but mostly it plans/conducts Gp cadet activities/pgms.

Then it's not doing it's job. I'll never understand why certain Group CP officers see appeal is getting a bunch of junior or middle type cadets together in a room to say "Plan a SAREX you're in charge of in a month."

And what is the CAC's job?  I ran this question a recently here and CS, and most responses were the internet equivalent of a shrug, quotes form the regs, or tales of WIWAC from 5-10 years ago.

I agree they should not be just an activity planning group.

[jimmydeanno]

And what is the CAC's job?  I ran this question a recently here and CS, and most responses were the internet equivalent of a shrug, quotes form the regs, or tales of WIWAC from 5-10 years ago.

The quotes from the regs specifically state what their "job" is and many of the responses did explain what they are supposed to do.

You appear to be stuck on judging the accomplishments/worth of the CAC based upon how many programs they impliment or how many NB agenda items they get passed.  Their job is to advise the commander at each respective level on things cadet related. 

So long as they are advising, they are doing their job.  They don't need to get bullet lists accomplished.

The CAC provides cadets an opportunity to voice their opinions about their program without getting tied down by some SM that hates cadets and won't pass on their ideas.  It also provides a venue for their ideas to be visible on a larger scale than normally possible. 

I think the larger problem is each respective commander not utilizing the CAC at all.  Either they don't value cadet's opinions or they just don't care to have to deal with it.  I think that is really what makes the CAC ineffective, not that they don't have anything to do.

SO, what do YOU THINK they should be doing and how does that differ from what the Cadet Advisory Council pamphlet states?

[Eclipse]

Advising on what?

Spending time, especially for cadets, on things that they can have no impact on is fruitless and the reason the CAC is on life support in most states.

What, literally, are they going to be discussing that could not be as simply addressed through their command chain? Bearing in mind that those chains are pretty short these days, and email, the web and other tech makes direct communications (too?) simple.  I would hazard a large chunk of our cadets text message their CC's with anything important, which is a far-cry from the days when reg updates were sent via snail mail, and the most immediate means of sharing information was the radio nets.

These days, even a 1/2-assed idea can be quickly discussed via email in 5 minutes, and people move on.

I actually don't care at all about what happens at the NCAC or RCAC.  I want to know how I sell this to a local cadet who already has plenty to do in CAP and elsewhere (the obvious, huge attraction of a length of rope on their shoulder notwithstanding).

No one has come up with a single, specific item that a unit or Group CAC could / should actually be discussing.  The kinds of things that people were raising were cadet AOBD's releasing airplanes - not exactly a hot issue in the average unit.

I am a Group CC who would love to have a functional CAC.  I try not to set people up for failure, so goals and mission of a project are important.  With arm twisting I can get people in the same room.

Then what?

(and bear in mind my Group hosts an encampment, two major cadet activities, fires hard on ES, AE & O-Flights, and despite all that, we have the same retention issues as the units with no planes or activities).

[arajca]

As a group commander, you should be tasking the CAC. An idea would be to solicite advise for improvements to existing cadet activites. If you have no taskings or don't really want to hear what the cadets think, don't have a CAC.

WIWAC, I was on the wing CAC. The wing commander made a big deal about getting it going and how valuable he felt having one would be. The CAC was made up of exclusively two and three diamond cadets, mostly 18-20 yo. After several meetings, we found out are "advice" was round filed almost as soon as it arrived, sometimes without being read. Really makes you feel wanted, doesn't it.

[Eclipse]

As a group commander, you should be tasking the CAC. An idea would be to solicit advise for improvements to existing cadet activities. If you have no taskings or don't really want to hear what the cadets think, don't have a CAC.

We have enough trouble just getting cadets to participate once, let alone "making things better", and advising a commander about activities you can't be bothered to participate in will be met with deaf ears.  I get cadets all the time
telling me to make my encampment "better" and "more fun", generally from cadets who know of it only by hearsay.  When I ask for specifics as to what would be "better" and "more fun", I generally get blank stares.

When I suggest their opinion would have more weight if they actually attended the event before suggesting changes, most of the time I get "I don't have time", or "I've already been to an encampment". Um...ok.

Having those same conversations with the same cadets from a structured body like a CAC isn't going to change the outcome much. (though I would like to think it could).

Issues I have as a group CC are addressed directly with participants, or I ask people who have an opinion.  By no means are there issues happening regularly enough, or generally that cadets could really influence, that require a regularly meeting body like a CAC, especially one that takes weeks to months just to schedule a meeting.

Mine is one of the more largest, most active and cohesive Groups in the wing, and there is little anyone has suggested the CAC could address.

So where does that leave the smaller, less coherent groups and units? Ones that don't participate in extra-unit activities to start with?

The answers I always get are "advise the commander", "discuss issues".  Like what, specifically?

No one yet has provided a single thing at a unit or group level that a CAC could address that they actually might get changed. (which doesn't even call into account the fact that a CAC can be fully operational and functional, provide coherent, detailed, progressive advice, and be totally ignored, which isn't going to keep the attention of cadets very long.)

[Ned]

No one yet has provided a single thing at a unit or group level that a CAC could address that they actually might get changed.

Gosh, Bob.

You're right.

The regulation requiring CACs is totally wrong.  What were those guys on the NB thinking when they passed it?  The nerve of them!

But maybe -- just maybe -- if you convened your CAC (as required) without berating them for "blank stares" and reminding them that they haven't told you  anything new, it might turn out somewhat differently.  Consider not blasting them upfront with the notion that "nothing they suggest could actually get changed" anyway.

Perhaps if their input was not sufficently specific, your Cadet Programs Officer could work with them to meet your requirements. 

The CAC is another staff-like entitiy designed to help you succeed as a commander.  But even if you choose to ignore their input as incomplete, unrealistic or redundant, they will still receive training and experience in valuable things like committee leadership that is not offered anywhere else in our program.


(And although others have already mentioned it, successful group CACs offer suggestions for improving existing unit and group activities, ideas for new ones, provide guidance on cadet retention issues by identifying training distractors and offering specific advice on measures to improve retention rates, identify fruitful areas for recruiting outreach, help coordinate activities between units, and serve as an additional information channel for the squadrons.  Effective commanders request specific advice on national and wing CP-related regulations posted for comment.  And of course, CAC can serve as an important way to engage the more senior cadets at a level outside the squadron.  Heck, it can serve as a way for cadets to informally network outside activities.)

You are certainly correct that modern technology has made it much easier for cadets to network and exchange information.  But the challenge is to harness this technology to improve the CAC (and your CP).  As you know, cadets enjoy and adapt more quickly to technology than us old guys.

Why not have your CAC try technology-based meetings?  It could be as simple as a traditional conference call or chatroom, or something slightly more upscale like online meetings with products like GoTo Meetings or Microsoft Office Online.  There are some shareware collaborative meeting software out there -- I'll bet your cadets know about them.


BTW, what does your group Cadet Programs Officer think about your CAC?  Has she/he worked with the wing DCP to engergize the group CAC?  Do you have a separate Senior Advisor for your CAC?  What guidance has been given to that person?


The bottom line is that CACs are not optional.  And in many ways they provide value to supported commanders and the CP in general.  You are certainly not alone in your frustrations, and are probably correct in observing that many CACs are less than fully functional. 

But let me also suggest that the best place for guidance and support for your CAC is not here on CT, but rather through normal staff CP channels starting with your group CPO.  These are the folks with the specific knowledge to help, and are also tasked with assisting you succeed with your CAC.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor Spacing - MIKE

[Eclipse]

Sorry Ned, we're usually on the same page, but most of what you're saying above sounds
like the same things everybody else says, which is basically a re-state of the published objectives and
generalizations.

I never said the reg requiring CAC's is "wrong", per se, but I sure would like someone to show me
something I can hold up as an example of a CAC that is working, and worth more than the paper the empty
org chart is written on.

Don't mistake my discussions here for the onlydiscussions that I've engaged in on this subject, I've been trying to get this "fixed" for years, because the cohesion a working CAC could bring to the rest
of the local programs has great potential value.

I've talked to the multiple Wing CCs, multiple DCP's, reps, chairs, active seniors, and plenty of cadets.  Sadly, the answer is pretty much the same "I don't know" (or a rehash of the first couple paragraphs of the charter regs).  I've never had anyone actively engage me with anything that didn't occur "last century", and
much of it falls into activity planning vs. program advisement.

I was hoping that there would be a few people here or on CS that would jump in and give examples of what their CAC's are doing, which didn't happen.

I'm from a big state, one where the population is (literally) top-heavy.  They've tried about every kind of conference technology and other means to bring people together, but in the end, after everyone is signed in, the pizza is eaten, and the minutes from the last meeting are approved, the rooms (or conference lines) are pretty quiet.

What is the CAC in PCR actively doing?

What are the hot-topic subjects that keep the reps engaged enough to keep participating?

[BillB]

Since the original regulation on the CAC was written in the 1950's, the entire concept of the CAC has changed. The original concept was for a cadet chain of command without senior interference. Cadets elected their CAC reps at each level. Reps can be read as CAC officers, Chair, Vice and Recorder. The original idea was that problems or suggestions could be brought to the next higher level CAC and thus to the higher Commander.
I can see both sides of the argument that CAC has a value and that CAC is useless. One year I served as Adviser to the National CAC. They brough forth several suggestions from Wing CACs that were of value and were suggested to the National CommanderOne or two were actually included in regulation changes in the cadet program.
But looking at the current CAC, I see many examples of cadets appointed to the CAC that have no idea what their role is in cadet programs. Commanders seem to be appointing cadets to the CAC at each level that may be based on favoritism. And the CAC reps do NOT want to rock the boat, they just want to wear the shoulder cord and not bring forward suggestions they think the Commander may not approve.
Never the less the CAC can be of value once you get to Region and National levels. Below that the CAC seems at the Wing level trying to take the same actions year after year. By this I mean coming up with bylaws for the Wing CAC, not being aware that the same bylaws they try to institute arealready in place. I shipped 15 laptop computers to Wing for the CAC. One to each Group CAC Chair and Wing CAC officers. This would have allowed the CAC reps to see what previous CAC's had accomplished and activities, suggestions taken to the Wing Commander. However, last I heard the DCP had not distributed the laptops to the CAC.
One of the problems I see on the CAC is the regulation doesn't provide the guidance to the new CAC reps each year. They start off in the blind with no goals or idea of the purpose of the CAC. Changing the regulation to have CAC reps appointed by the Commander rather than cadets selecting (voting) on their reps was a mistake. It lessened the  input from the CAC to the various level commanders. No matter how you look at it the CAC could be of value to Commanders if run effectively.

[FW]

Personally, I'm not concerned about the "results" of the CAC.  I am concerned however, with getting a CAC to be active and participate with proper senior member guidance.  To me, the CAC should be, as Ned states so well, a learning opportunity in committee leadership

"The CAC is another staff-like entity designed to help you succeed as a commander.  But even if you choose to ignore their input as incomplete, unrealistic or redundant, they will still receive training and experience in valuable things like committee leadership that is not offered anywhere else in our program."

IMHO, this is the aspect we should be emphasising.  Cadets are our students.  It is our job to teach them and, the CAC structure is one of our tools.  

[Ned]

What are the hot-topic subjects that keep the reps engaged enough to keep participating?

A CAC generally rises or sinks to the level of expectations and support provided by the echelon commander.

Too many commanders just approach the CAC as an item on the CI/SUI checklist and are happy as long as they have one and the cadets don't bother them too much.

Just like any other part of the cadet program, a crappy cadet program is not the fault of the cadets or funky regulatory guidance, but rather a failure on the part of the CP officers who are responsible for the program. 

I have never seen a small, struggling squadron that had 4 or more master-rated CP officers actively engaged, but suffered from "bad cadets" or a lack of support from above.  But I have seen too many small struggling units without enough qualified senior support.

CACs are no different.  Put them off in a room with an unqualified senior advisor (or no senior at all) and no quidance beyond "dazzle me with your advice" and they will in all probablilty be unsuccessful.

If a vital and successful CAC is part of a commander's vision, and that vision is successfully communicated to subordinate commanders, it is more likely to be successful.  A CAC needs to be supported with a qualifed, motivated Senior Advisor.  And both subordinate commanders and the CAC advisor need to clearly hear how important a successful CAC is to the boss.  A successful CAC should be a "report card" item for these officers, and especially the advisor.

If you currently have a sub-optimal CAC, engage them with specific taskings.  Simple at first, then more complicated as they mature organizationally.  The whole "crawl, walk, run" thing.




Here's a quick list of suitable CAC taskings, some simple; some more complex:

1.  My personnel officer says first year cadet retention is at 33%.  I need 5 specific ideas on how to increase that to 50%.

2.  Last year, only X number of cadet officers applied for NCSAs compared to Y the year before.  I am concerned about the decline.  Please tell me 3 things I can do to increase the NCSA application rate from our wing.

3.  In our wing/group, unit A is doing a lot of ES training, unit B is into model rocketry, unit C is doing a lot of AE in the local schools.  What activities could we schedule that would support all three units?

4.  On the national website, the following proposed regulations have been posted for comment (xx-x, yy-y, zz-z.)  I think they may impact the cadet program, but I'm not sure how.  Please analyze the regulation and tell me how you feel it will affect the cadet program.

5.  What would be the best way for this command to engage in Wreaths Across America / Red Ribbon?

6.  Should this command engage in joint activities with the US Army Cadet Corps / US Naval Sea Cadets / Young Marines?  Why or why not?  If so, what sorts of activities should they be?

7.  We clearly need better ways to retain cadets in the 18-21 year age group and engage them in CP.  Give me three specific suggestions we could do in this command to help?

8.  Is there a need for an Honor Guard program in this command?  Why or why not?

9.  Historically, this command has been lagging / about average / above average in implementing  DDR.  I need five specific ideas that can be implemented in this command that will improve on this record.

10.  I would like to increase the number of minority / disabled / insert an under-represented catagory here cadets.  Please provide a half-dozen specific suggestions on how to reach out to these communities for recruiting purposes.

(None of which involve uniform items or "revising the Constitution and Bylaws."  )