How tough is tough?

[CAP006]

In my leadership experiences, I've learned that a modest amount of toughness and yelling is good and healthy. 

When I was yelled at when I was an in-flight, the toughness of my leaders pressured me. It made me move and act better. It made me a better cadet.

But when it gets anal, it needs to stop, and leaders need to start looking at what their goals are, and what good things are already happening.

In addition, all forms of loud "calling out" should be done at the whole flight, never at one person.  That I've also found is very bad.

I agree.  There are times when being loud is necessary but you also need to know when enough is enough.

[Rotorhead]

I'll try and give a more younger view at this.  Today's average teenager has a lot to worry about.  The most important thing that most think of and their parents as well, is college.  It seems everything in the world revolves around getting that college application to look perfect for when its sent in.  Parents view getting a varied mix of extracurricular activities will do the job, on top of good grades and such.  Everything is so structured for teenagers.  One day's track practice, next is CAP, then Debate, then theater, it just doesn't leave a teenager time to devote to CAP outside of his/her regular time. 

I experienced exactly this 25 years ago. Thiings haven't changed at all, in this regard.

[Eebdog]

I seriously hope we're talking about training activities such as encampment or weekend pre-enc training, not the typical squadron meeting (with the exception of squadrons that run some sort of basic cadet training cycle). Shocking as it may sound, you'll lose more prospects than you'll gain by yelling (unless it's jodies or motivational).

Encampment's over. Time to chillax a bit.

[jeders]

Encampment's over. Time to chillax a bit.

Unfortunately, people get too "chillaxed." When I joined CAP back in the dark days before Pearl Harbor , actually back in '00, I was in a Squadron that wasn't hardcore but still produced generally good cadets. We didn't do pushups, mostly due to CPPT, and unless we screwed up no one was yelling at us. I eventually became the cadet commander and we maintained a decent level of professionalism without going overboard. Then I left town to get my Masters degree. After two years, I came back and rejoined that squadron and became the DCC before I even officially transfered in. I went to my first meeting last Tuesday and was amazed at how relaxed things were. We had cadets show up in incorrect uniforms, I don't mean blues instead of BDUs, I mean a cadet wearing gray a name tag, one rank insignia, and not wearing his flight cap outside. There was no opening formation, everyone just filed into the classroom for ML.

Fortunately, the squadron commander is of the opinion that this is now my cadet program and I'm free to make it tougher as long as I stay within the boundaries of the regulations and common sense. Does this mean that I' m going to start yelling at cadets for not wearing uniforms properly right in front of everyone, no. Does it mean I'm going to start dropping cadets until there arms give out, no. Does it mean that the program will be tougher than before, you better believe it. Because from what I'm seeing, there is no toughness in this squadron.

So back to the original question, how tough is tough? Through my, admittedly limited, time in CAP, I've found that most cadets will respond to the level of toughness that they are faced with by overcoming. Little Johnny may not like to get up at 0500, but if you motivate him, he will. So how tough it too tough, too tough is where your demands far surpass a cadets motivation.

[John Bryan]

This is kind of a side question......I know what the regs say and I obey them 100%...that said, do we really think push ups or PT for displine is child abuse? I mean if that is the case then every middle school wrestling and football coach in America is a child abuser. Heck, I think Pop Warner still makes you run laps or do push ups.....I know there are still middle school and high school gym teachers that do.

Maybe, just maybe we over reacted , kind of like the golf cart thing? I mean PT and the rest can cross into hazing....but rather then train the members Cadet Officers and Seniors alike to know what is healthy and what is hazing we just say thou shall not.

I think we need to start doing a lot more training rather then just saying NOT ALLOWED.  I mean thats what ORM is about.

And not just CP.....heck we need to do large van, vehicle operator training, but instead we just keep issuing policies to remove seats.

Anyway....sorry for my rant

[Ned]

John,

Excellent points.  And ones that those of us in CP take very seriously.

CAP's cadet program has always been a challenging and vigorous military-based leadership program.  And I don't think that is going to change any time soon.

And I agree that we need to spend some more time trying to define the "look and feel" of our CP.  It's an area that has always interested me.

You can see my article on that very subject on CadetStuff here .

A couple of points.  I don't think anyone at NHQ or on the NB thinks that push ups are always abusive per se.  Heck, I was in the Army for over 20 years and I seem to recall that during my Initial Entry Training that the DIs dispensed push ups fairly frequently to get our attention and help us focus on the tasks at hand.   

But we should probably remember that Army DIs and Air Force MTIs are veteran service members who have graduated from a 16 week course and been through a couple of cycles of OJT under the supervision of experience instructors before they are allowed train basic recruits and hand out those push ups.

The typical encampment flight sergeant or commander is more like 16 years old with maybe 20-30 days of CAP "active duty" total.  And the senior member Tactical Officer may not have much more direct experience.

And those professional DIs and MTIs are dealing with 17-25 year olds who are significantly different than the 13-15 year old cadets that we are training at encampments and our home units.

So that's long way of saying that I agree that we need to come up with some doctrine on our "look and feel" where we try to describe our "toughness" levels and provide tools and training so that CP officers from Alaska to Puerto Rico can understand it and safely train our troops.

To start the ball rolling, I am sending an officer to both Lackland and the USAFA to talk to representatives of the Training Wings there about how they go about creating their "look and feel", and to identify and secure existing USAF doctrine on training and stress levels.

The goal is to draft doctrine and training materials relevant to our cadet program.  At this point, we are calling it a draft 52-10 Implementation Guide, but as it develops we may wind up calling it something else.

Thanks for reading this far.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor

[stratoflyer]

Thanks Ned!

[John Bryan]

Ned,

Thanks for the reply and your efforts. I love the USAFA input....since unlike basic training TI's, their cadre is only a couple years older and still leaders in training themselves. While I have no misunderstanding of the large difference between CAP cadets and USAFA cadets, it is at least apples and oranges.....unlike TI's and recruits which compared to CAP cadets are grapes and watermelons.

I for one do not think we need to have a "Push Up for Punishment program".....I just am a little sick of hearing how making a kid do a lap or 10 push ups is child abuse....I don't think it would add anything to our program to have PT as punishment and in fact it might hurt the PFT program we do use......but again, I also don't think it is child abuse.  I would rather see this addressed in the CAPR 52-16 as an issue of how we run our cadet program then in CAPR 52-10 on the same level as physical abuse, sexual abuse and real hazing. 

[jimmydeanno]

I think this could do with our "punishment fitting the crime" avenue.

One could say that someone doing laps or pushups during football practice is getting a punishment that fits the crime.

It might be a strech, but I think an argument could be made in that direction.

[stratoflyer]

I don't look at it as punishment. Real punishment is for something serious. Kind of what Jimmy said. Dropping a cadet for 5 pushups for being late, away from the flight, might be a little something for him to think about (getting sweaty and red in the face for being late is not a good deal)--but it is not punishment per se. Punishment would be suspension from 3 squadron activities for verbal language directed at another member.

At the JROTC, I found that some cadets thought dropping for pushups coupled with a motivational phrase on each count was actually helpful to them.

Just thoughts. I'm not saying that we need pushups in CAP, but merely stating that IMHO, pushups can't really be punishment.

Can CP be tougher at squadrons with the CPPT in place as is? Absolutely!

For example, the Marines will soon be doing Combat Fitness tests. I watched a video on this and thought--hey, we could adapt it for cadets. That would be a cool activity. Then through in a group leadership challenge in there, and now you got a cool activity for a cadet training weekend.

At my squadron, cadets frequently comment that one of their favorite activities are the physically challenging ones.

[Flying Pig]

WHat I liked about physical "punishment" was that when it was over, you knew it was over.  In the Marines, drop your rifle, 20 push ups.  Running to formation 30 seconds late, 50 pushups, maybe some flutter kicks.  CAP.....Late to a meeting, knock out 10, get in formation.

You knew it was done and over with for minor violations.  But of course, we had idiots take it to far and people got hurt.

[SarDragon]

The question I still have is:  When was handing out pushups for punishment ever permitted in CAP? WIWAC, we were always told that it was forbidden, even though some units would ignore it. That included the encampment I attended. I was a cadet from '64 to '69.

[DC]

It would never fly, but come to think of it, push ups could have the effect of encouraging physical fitness? I have always felt that CAP needed to place more emphasis on this to combat the growing (no pun intended) obesity rate in America. Encouraging physical activity is not really a bad idea...

But of course, there are the parents that will flip and the cadets on a power trip that will hurt someone...

Maybe if there was a limit placed, and a requirement for SM supervision...

I really think that most cadets would appreciate it, and would benefit from it a lot more than a teenager's idea of 'counseling' which more often than not is just getting chewed out.. I believe AFJROTC doesn't allow it, but other branches of JROTC do, and it seems to work for them...

[CAP006]

It would never fly, but come to think of it, push ups could have the effect of encouraging physical fitness? I have always felt that CAP needed to place more emphasis on this to combat the growing (no pun intended) obesity rate in America. Encouraging physical activity is not really a bad idea...

But of course, there are the parents that will flip and the cadets on a power trip that will hurt someone...

Maybe if there was a limit placed, and a requirement for SM supervision...

I really think that most cadets would appreciate it, and would benefit from it a lot more than a teenager's idea of 'counseling' which more often than not is just getting chewed out.. I believe AFJROTC doesn't allow it, but other branches of JROTC do, and it seems to work for them...

I agree. I think that if a cadet has been given a warning or two and still doesn't listen then he should be punished in the proper way.  What I do in my squadron is that when doing drill, if cadets are disobeying, have all of them do push-ups together (and me cause I'm F.C) instead of pulling specific ones out.  The cadets will then learn how to be a team and when more then one is messing up, then the rest will pay as well.

Also, I don't make the cadets do more than 20 push-ups or sit-up as a punishment (so to speak) period. And I also alternate between push-ups and sit-ups.

In having to punish a cadet there should be a safety limit now how far is aloud. Dose anyone else agree?

[jimmydeanno]

It would never fly, but come to think of it, push ups could have the effect of encouraging physical fitness? I have always felt that CAP needed to place more emphasis on this to combat the growing (no pun intended) obesity rate in America. Encouraging physical activity is not really a bad idea...

But of course, there are the parents that will flip and the cadets on a power trip that will hurt someone...

Maybe if there was a limit placed, and a requirement for SM supervision...

I really think that most cadets would appreciate it, and would benefit from it a lot more than a teenager's idea of 'counseling' which more often than not is just getting chewed out.. I believe AFJROTC doesn't allow it, but other branches of JROTC do, and it seems to work for them...

I agree. I think that if a cadet has been given a warning or two and still doesn't listen then he should be punished in the proper way.  What I do in my squadron is that when doing drill, if cadets are disobeying, have all of them do push-ups together (and me cause I'm F.C) instead of pulling specific ones out.  The cadets will then learn how to be a team and when more then one is messing up, then the rest will pay as well.

Also, I don't make the cadets do more than 20 push-ups or sit-up as a punishment (so to speak) period. And I also alternate between push-ups and sit-ups.

In having to punish a cadet there should be a safety limit now how far is aloud. Dose anyone else agree?

So you're admittidly violating CAP's policies and directives?

HAZING: Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator. Examples of hazing include using exercise as punishment or assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency (such as making a cadet run laps for having poorly shined shoes).

[CAP006]

It would never fly, but come to think of it, push ups could have the effect of encouraging physical fitness? I have always felt that CAP needed to place more emphasis on this to combat the growing (no pun intended) obesity rate in America. Encouraging physical activity is not really a bad idea...

But of course, there are the parents that will flip and the cadets on a power trip that will hurt someone...

Maybe if there was a limit placed, and a requirement for SM supervision...

I really think that most cadets would appreciate it, and would benefit from it a lot more than a teenager's idea of 'counseling' which more often than not is just getting chewed out.. I believe AFJROTC doesn't allow it, but other branches of JROTC do, and it seems to work for them...

I agree. I think that if a cadet has been given a warning or two and still doesn't listen then he should be punished in the proper way.  What I do in my squadron is that when doing drill, if cadets are disobeying, have all of them do push-ups together (and me cause I'm F.C) instead of pulling specific ones out.  The cadets will then learn how to be a team and when more then one is messing up, then the rest will pay as well.

Also, I don't make the cadets do more than 20 push-ups or sit-up as a punishment (so to speak) period. And I also alternate between push-ups and sit-ups.

In having to punish a cadet there should be a safety limit now how far is aloud. Dose anyone else agree?

So you're admittidly violating CAP's policies and directives?

HAZING: Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator. Examples of hazing include using exercise as punishment or assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency (such as making a cadet run laps for having poorly shined shoes).

NO no no!  I understand why you may think that but I don't do it to abuse or humiliate the cadet. I am very carefull on how its done and I also do it with them so that I feel what they feel and so they don't think as if I'm being mean or cruel.  Thats also what one of my senior members told me to do.

[MIKE]

HAZING: Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator. Examples of hazing include using exercise as punishment or assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency (such as making a cadet run laps for having poorly shined shoes).

Emphasis mine.

[DC]

Push ups are not allowed PERIOD unless it is part of a Physical Training program. They cannot be handed out arbitrarily whether the staff does them or not.

It is ALL considered hazing. I disagree with the reg, but you don't mess around with, or even try to bend the CPP. It is an excellent way to get 2Bed.

As a Cadet Officer the safety iof your cadets is your responsibility, to not know CAPR 52-10 and take other people's (even SMs) word for anything there is just stupid, and will get you in trouble.

[CAP006]

HAZING: Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator. Examples of hazing include using exercise as punishment or assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency (such as making a cadet run laps for having poorly shined shoes).

Emphasis mine.

OK. I understand but if I can't use exercise as a form of punishment then what should I do cause it works great in my squadron?
I don't what to sound rude or bossy but I would like to know an alternative.  

[davidsinn]

HAZING: Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator. Examples of hazing include using exercise as punishment or assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency (such as making a cadet run laps for having poorly shined shoes).

Emphasis mine.

OK. I understand but if I can't use exercise as a form of punishment then what should I do cause it works great in my squadron?
I don't what to sound rude or bossy but I would like to know an alternative. 

There isn't one and therein lies the problem. Writing them up is too harsh for piddly little things like screwing around in drill.