Main Menu

We're Building a UAV

Started by ♠SARKID♠, November 08, 2011, 11:25:22 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

♠SARKID♠

My squadron is in the planning stages of building a UAV/FPV aircraft.  We've already applied for an AFA grant to get us started and we're currently hashing out the AE curriculum associated for the build.  The goal is for the build to be an AE program for the cadets, but to have a functioning ES asset when we're done.

I know there's a thread from 2010 floating around on local UAV use floating around, but it didn't answer some of the key questions I need to know.  If we're going to use this as an ES search asset, are we going to have to get an airworthiness certificate for it?  Do wee need to have a licensed pilot with us or flying it?  We'd be flying it out of visual sight on a regular basis, through video goggles or a GPS autopilot, so I'm pretty sure we'd be going outside the standard model aircraft guidelines.  I know that if we keep it within visual range we're good, but we want to be able to go out a couple miles over forest, hill, and dale.

I have submitted my questions to the FAA as well, but wanted to know if any of the folks around the forum had some answers.

Eclipse

Aren't any radio controlled air vehicles which are out of the line of site of the operator prohibited?

"That Others May Zoom"

sardak

Here is the link to the FAA FAQ page on the regs and requirements for Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS), which is the preferred term over UAV.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/systemops/aaim/organizations/uas/coa/faq/

The first answer on this page links to three documents which will answer most, if not all, of your questions.

Mike

♠SARKID♠

Wow, they really have this stuff locked down.  May be more than a little tough to get this happening on the ES side...

PHall

Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on November 09, 2011, 12:48:16 AM
Wow, they really have this stuff locked down.  May be more than a little tough to get this happening on the ES side...

The mid-air between a C-130 and a Predator over Afghanistan a month or two ago won't help either.

a2capt

There's a fine line between R/C aircraft and UAS.

You are 19 miles past it, with your desires of this project.

Make smaller stuff, that fits in the realm of the AMA covered areas. Except thats still line of sight, and visual range. If you're that close, you don't need a UAS. You can walk there.

sardak

I was at a symposium last week where two of the presentations included use of UAS in search and rescue, though UAS was not the primary topic of either presentation. It got me doing some looking around which led me to the FAA site which, like you, dampened my enthusiasm.

One of the presentations was on a search for a missing missionary pilot and his 6 passengers (in a C-182) in Venezuela. It was given by the developer of the software for the search team's home-built UAV which they refer to as an "aerial camera platform" (ACP). Pictures of the ACP and the search are here: http://www.findingbobnorton.org/aerial_camera_platform_acp

The other presentation was by an MD with DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Products Agency) on the development of new equipment and techniques for medics and warfighters in the sandbox and elsewhere. He talked about how the IR imagery from a UAS can be used to help triage the injured and deceased.  http://www.darpa.mil/Our_Work/DSO/

Mike

a2capt

In a nutshell, to operate in US airspace, on that level, it's got to be flown by a licensed pilot, be manufactured according to all that applies, and be operated by a public agency or DoD. (Public use flight). CAP on an AFM might be a stretch, as our flights are then Public Use, but I doubt that will ever happen. Why? It costs ~$80/hour to send a manned Cessna 182 overhead. Why send a UAS?  A whole lot less paperwork and hassle.

You're looking for something for a ground team to have an extended look with. Use a small R/C aircraft, a helicopter. Send it up, with a spread spectrum camera on it.

Otherwise, you have the makings of a massive AE project, but for ES? ... thats a stretch.

Spaceman3750

A SAR conference I was at last month had a vendor selling UAS quadcopters for SAR, LE, etc applications. The guy behind the table said that all you needed was a few hours of training, but he also was trying to move his $100k+ gizmo.

Major Lord

Have you considered the possibility that the UAV ( And if I were you I would drop that nomenclature to avoid the wrath of the FAA, CAP, FCC, HLS, MADD, etc.) could be used for an airborne Radio Direction finding receiver? A ground team that could launch a quick- deployable high altitude ( relatively, at least) model airplane could greatly enhance their probability of ELT beacon signal acquisition.

Also, if you have not done so already, you may want to dual -charter your Squadron as a BSA "Venture Crew" , Opening up the use of Ham Radio equipment for at least your R&D "-1" model. This would allow you to use much higher control power, as well as downlink power ( video, tracking, telemetry, etc) without stepping on NTIA or FCC toes.

I think you have an awesome concept! Let me know if there is anything I can get for you in terms of radio gear. I have ATV and APRS tracking stuff in my junk bin that could be put to better use!

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

ElectricPenguin

#10
You need an Amateur* radio license. I know cuz I thought of making an RC plane and then adding a wireless camera on it... More expensive then I would like, good chance it would crash too... :/

FYI: http://www.draganfly.com/
http://www.draganfly.com/uav-airplane/tango/

Eclipse

Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on November 08, 2011, 11:25:22 PMThe goal is for the build to be an AE program for the cadets, but to have a functioning ES asset when we're done.

You might as well ask up the chain on this.

As an AE project, I see no issue.

As an ES asset, there are twelve different questions, some might require NHQ to answer.
For starters, who's going to pay the bill when this thing hits someone or something on an AFAM?

"That Others May Zoom"

Spaceman3750

Does "ES UAV Pilot" rate CAP pilot wings? >:D

lordmonar

You know....this is not really a bad idea.....if you stay in the RC area instead of going up to the UAS level.

A helo type RC craft with a camera and some sort of DF unit....be able to do an off bearing LOB or get some eyes on over the trees or hill.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

BTCS1*

I'm actually working with a teacher from my school and a fellow cadet/ham on developing a fully autonomous UAV to do RDF for entry into the Intel competition. Within the next 3-4 months there will hopefully be a functioning prototype!
C/2d Lt. B. Garelick, CAP

Major Lord

That sounds awesome, but now we need details man, details! Helo or fixed wing? On board navigation via an Intel product? DF' ELT's? Inquiring minds want to know!

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

♠SARKID♠

Quote from: Major Lord on November 09, 2011, 03:27:16 PM
Have you considered the possibility that the UAV ( And if I were you I would drop that nomenclature to avoid the wrath of the FAA, CAP, FCC, HLS, MADD, etc.) could be used for an airborne Radio Direction finding receiver? A ground team that could launch a quick- deployable high altitude ( relatively, at least) model airplane could greatly enhance their probability of ELT beacon signal acquisition.

Also, if you have not done so already, you may want to dual -charter your Squadron as a BSA "Venture Crew" , Opening up the use of Ham Radio equipment for at least your R&D "-1" model. This would allow you to use much higher control power, as well as downlink power ( video, tracking, telemetry, etc) without stepping on NTIA or FCC toes.

I think you have an awesome concept! Let me know if there is anything I can get for you in terms of radio gear. I have ATV and APRS tracking stuff in my junk bin that could be put to better use!

Major Lord

I did have the DF brainstorm a couple days ago, I haven't giggled with delight in a long time.   :)  I'll let you know if we need something or some assistance!

Quote from: ElectricPenguin on November 09, 2011, 07:37:59 PM
You need an Amateur* radio license. I know cuz I thought of making an RC plane and then adding a wireless camera on it... More expensive then I would like, good chance it would crash too... :/

FYI: http://www.draganfly.com/
http://www.draganfly.com/uav-airplane/tango/

Known about the Draganfly for a couple of years, you have no idea as to how much I want one.  A base price of $32,000 for the new model is a bit steep though without a huge grant.

Quote from: lordmonar on November 09, 2011, 09:12:02 PM
You know....this is not really a bad idea.....if you stay in the RC area instead of going up to the UAS level.

A helo type RC craft with a camera and some sort of DF unit....be able to do an off bearing LOB or get some eyes on over the trees or hill.

If that's what it has to be in the end, so be it.  But I'd really like to see how difficult it really would be to make a UAV.  Sometimes (just, just sometimes) impossible, isn't.

Major Lord

"If you build it they will come".....( Field of Dreams)

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

JetDriver777

Any RC airframe will work... 

you add a autopilot...
http://diydrones.com/notes/ArduPilot

Then you add a video camera with transmitter.
http://www.dpcav.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16628&cat=279&page=1
http://www.dpcav.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16299&cat=264&page=1

plus a on screen display...
http://www.rangevideo.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=135


Under $1000 you have an RC plane that can:

-Transmit real time video (Line of sight)
-Video is embedded with all the data you need to fly the plane soley off the video feed
-Autpilot provides a data link with real time telemetry
-real time "command and control" link to change any mission parameter while in flight
-Autopilot has unlimited waypoints, loiter, and return to home function


you can easily add a radio scannner tuned to 121.5 homer freq that re-transmits the scanner audio via the audio carrier on the video feed.

possibilities are endless.

HOWEVER
you must fall under the "Hobbiest" category and follow all AMA rules.   Under 400', always maintain visual site.  Must have a spotter if the pilot is flying via video feed, the spotter must be able to take control if needed.  (See AMA rules for all the "FPV" and "UAV" caviats).

In about 1 week mine will be completely built out as discribed above (Exept the video and data links willl be in the Amateur Radio spectrum).

♠SARKID♠

We're going to be running on a very similar setup.

Ours is going to take a couple months as we plan on having the cadets work on it two Thursdays a month.  We're going to set it up so we have, say, an AE lesson on aircraft components and aerodynamics at our Monday meeting, then meet on Thursday to assemble the aircraft.  Two weeks later we have a class on air to ground communications on Monday, build/install transmitters on Thursday.  We're planning out a number of classes and will work on it incrementally to make a full curriculum out of the build.