Revisions to CAPR 35-5 for NCO Appointments and Promotions

[SSgt Rudin]

I will be forwarding this to the CMSgt of CAP as a recommendation for a presentation to the National Board during the Winter Session. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[mikeylikey]

That is rather quick promotion TIG don't you think? 

I am also confused, you can come in as an NCO at 21?  I know very few NCO's at 21.  Maybe I am just blind to it, but are there really that many AF NCO's aged 21?

Are you proposing that you don't need to be a former or currently serving NCO?

Other than those two questions, (which may not be anything at all, as I could be tottally wrong, and usually am) it looks good.  I would love to see this go through, and CAP start to build a competent NCO corps again!

Good Work!  I also like the insignia (but if they are not making Flight Officer Insignia, do you think they will make the CAP NCO Insignia??)

[SSgt Rudin]

That is rather quick promotion TIG don't you think? 

I am also confused, you can come in as an NCO at 21?  I know very few NCO's at 21.  Maybe I am just blind to it, but are there really that many AF NCO's aged 21?

Are you proposing that you don't need to be a former or currently serving NCO?

Other than those two questions, (which may not be anything at all, as I could be tottally wrong, and usually am) it looks good.  I would love to see this go through, and CAP start to build a competent NCO corps again!

Good Work!  I also like the insignia (but if they are not making Flight Officer Insignia, do you think they will make the CAP NCO Insignia??)

I tried to follow the current TIG from 35-5 for officers, but 4 years as a SMSgt seemed a little long to me, considering the minimum TIG for the AF is 3. I'm thinking of changing it to 12, 18, 36, 36. 

Yes you can come in as an NCO at 21. I am 22, I made E5 a few months after my 3 year mark.

No, you still have to be prior enlisted to be eligible. 

[PHall]

I will be forwarding this to the CMSgt of CAP as a recommendation for a presentation to the National Board during the Winter Session. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

I thought he quit over the Iowa Wing Wing Commander boon doggle?

[SSgt Rudin]

I will be forwarding this to the CMSgt of CAP as a recommendation for a presentation to the National Board during the Winter Session. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

I thought he quit over the Iowa Wing Wing Commander boon doggle?

I had a chance to meet Gen Courter on Saturday at Wing Conference, and she told me about the new CMSgt of CAP a CMSgt from AZWG, who will be officially announced with in the next two weeks.

[PHall]

Yes you can come in as an NCO at 21. I am 22, I made E5 a few months after my 3 year mark. 

But you were in the Navy and the Navy tends to promote much quicker then the other services.

In the Air Force, you're a "Fast Burner" if you can make SSgt (E-5) in under 4 years.
And about the only way to do that is to come in as an A1C (E-3), get SrA (E-4) "below the zone" and to make SSgt (E-5) on your first try.
Not exactly easy to do and not very common either.

[RiverAux]

The whole mystique of the NCO that has people so in love with this concept will be blown if NCOs are being promoted based on CAP criteria.  If you're going to do that, you may as well make them be officers like everybody else.  Those who think CAP rank is illegitimate will just have an excuse to say CAP NCO rank is illegitimate as well. 

Personally, I don't have a major issue with our current NCO program even though it serves no useful purpose.  To change it this way, would just make it a mirror of the rest of our program, taking away any real use that it does have. 

[SSgt Rudin]

Yes you can come in as an NCO at 21. I am 22, I made E5 a few months after my 3 year mark. 

But you were in the Navy and the Navy tends to promote much quicker then the other services.

In the Air Force, you're a "Fast Burner" if you can make SSgt (E-5) in under 4 years.
And about the only way to do that is to come in as an A1C (E-3), get SrA (E-4) "below the zone" and to make SSgt (E-5) on your first try.
Not exactly easy to do and not very common either.

That is true, but you only have to be a NCO in the Armed Forces to be a CAP NCO and therefor it is possible to be a CAP NCO at 21 (or even prior) regardless if it is possible or not in the Air Force.

My version is actully stricter than the current 35-5. According to the current 35-5 there is NO age requirement to be a CAP NCO. if you are the very, very rare 19 or 20 year old E5 you can still be a SSgt in CAP.

[Eclipse]

I would like to know the reasoning behind this beyond "because we should".

How do you intend to divvy up the duties of a squadron and deal with existing officers?

You can't create a whole new grade system which is subordinate in both standing and duties to an existing
grade system in a volunteer organization where we have no way to require people to do anything.

Col's will still take out the trash, and E-4's will still wind up as unit cc's.

If you believe anything else, you don't understand CAP.

I would be more inclined to support eliminating grade, or coming up with an entirely distinct system than creating additional layers that most of our non-military members will understand even less than then do today.

[Eclipse]

With everything else that is dividing and working against CAP right now, why on earth would we want to stir this hornet's nest up?

We need to streamline and execute against the program we have today, not further divide and confuse the membership.

[CadetProgramGuy]

I will be forwarding this to the CMSgt of CAP as a recommendation for a presentation to the National Board during the Winter Session. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

I thought he quit over the Iowa Wing Wing Commander boon doggle?

He did, but aparently there is someone new from AZWG.

[Pylon]

Your proposal allows for a SM NCO to become SMSgt after being appointed as a Squadron First Sergeant for at least a year.  Since most squadrons have no NCOs, it seems like a pretty easy appointment to make to advance any NCO up to SMSgt pretty quickly.

[Dragoon]

IF we could determine an actual use for NCOs in CAP, then such a proposal makes sense.

(Note, I'm not talking about finding a use for "people with real military NCO experience."  We've got that now - and they can apply their experience as CAP Officers.  Just like folks with real military officer experience.)

I'm talking about determining an actual use for CAP NCOs.

That can only exist if you can define something that CAP NCOs can do that officers cannot/should not do.

As long as the duties are interchangeable, there is no need.

And if the duties aren't interchangeable, then EVERY unit will need CAP NCOs in order to function.  And if that's true, we'll need to open membership up to non-prior service guys, or decharter units that can't find enough RM NCOs to fill the slots.

And we'll have to define what happens if a CAP NCO takes on officer duties for a while, like squadron command, but later goes back to NCO duties.  Stripes on, stripes off?

It always seems to come back to "but there's this great former NCO who doesn't want to be an officer."  Seems like a pretty silly reason to revamp an entire national personnel system.

(Next step - create CAP warrant officers, so former army warrants can wear their old rank and get promoted to CAP CW5!)

[Eclipse]

The document is not a "proposal", it is a procedure or regulation.

It contains a fair amount of detail as to how people will progress within a CAP NCO system, but nothing as to why we need this in the first place.

A proper proposal would contain background on the "need", detail on how the fix supports the mission and enhances the program, addresses anticipated major objections and addresses them.

[ddelaney103]

It looks like it fills several former NCO's deep seated desires to become Chiefs... 

[Dragoon]

Once could argue that if we needed NCOs in CAP, we'd restrict the top grades to certain key positions, just like we do with CAP Officers.  Perhaps Master Sergeant would be as high as you go unless chosen to fill a critical Wing or above position.

I know that would burn those that desperately want to be E-9's, but hey, those of us on the officer's side deal with it all the time.