what hat to wear?

[miles]

I was wondering about headgear for the BDU and blueberry uniforms. Are encampment hats or other activity covers authorized to wear at the squadron/wing/region level? Swear I read once that activity covers were authorized for the specific activity and during the activity only.

[BTCS1*]

The specific activity covers is in regards to blue beret. With the BBDU, any hat is authorized, but with the BDU, only the BDU cover or a squadron cap is authorized.

[JayT]

I was wondering about headgear for the BDU and blueberry uniforms. Are encampment hats or other activity covers authorized to wear at the squadron/wing/region level? Swear I read once that activity covers were authorized for the specific activity and during the activity only.

You're be correct. BDU is authorized patrol cap, baseball cap, squadron cap, and watch cap (I believe). Which blueberry uniform? The DFU is authorized all the same as the BDU's, except you can also go without a cap. The utility uniform is authorized a ball cap, or no cap.

[miles]

The blue version of the BDU.

[miles]

cadets at my squadron wear their encampment covers or covers made for other various events. None of which are national events like hawk mountain or blue beret.

[Eclipse]

cadets at my squadron wear their encampment covers or covers made for other various events. None of which are national events like hawk mountain or blue beret.

That is not authorized outside the specific activity.

[miles]

What is the regulation? where is the regulation? I need to print it out to show them.

[Hawk200]

What is the regulation? where is the regulation? I need to print it out to show them.

It's CAPM 39-1. Download, and dig it out from there.

[Eclipse]

What is the regulation? where is the regulation? I need to print it out to show them.

It's CAPM 39-1. Download, and dig it out from there.

Its important to remember for these types of conversations that in most cases our regulations tell us what we can do, to
the exclusion of anything else, which can be hard for people with no military experience to grasp, since most of the real
world works the other way.

If it doesn't say you can, you can't, and in the case of a conflict of regulation, its best to consult higher HQ.

[lordmonar]

What is the regulation? where is the regulation? I need to print it out to show them.

Show who?

It has been standard practice in many places....even if it skirts the letter of the regulation.....for activities to issue their own hats for the BDU and BBDU.

They do this a NESA and CAWG encampment that I know of for sure.

Wearing them later at the squadron is definitely a faux pas....but some squadrons may allow this (again against regulations).

If you are trying to tell your encampment staff that they can't issue specific hats....I think you are wasting your time. Because A) it is within the spirit of the regulations to get everyone at the activity into a uniform and B) you are going up against a lot of "that's the way it is done" mentality.   When national level activities are allowed to do it....it is very hard to use the "it's not in the regs" argument.

[lordmonar]

What is the regulation? where is the regulation? I need to print it out to show them.

It's CAPM 39-1. Download, and dig it out from there.

Its important to remember for these types of conversations that in most cases our regulations tell us what we can do, to
the exclusion of anything else, which can be hard for people with no military experience to grasp, since most of the real
world works the other way.

If it doesn't say you can, you can't, and in the case of a conflict of regulation, its best to consult higher HQ.

I got to call the BS flag on that.  Military regulations work both ways.....mostly they work on the "that which is not forbidden is permitted" model.

Having said that....even those regulations that say "no deviations or additions allowed" are often deviated and even ignored by commanders and leaders at all levels.

What many REG HOUNDS here at CAPTALK don't understand about the way the military does business is that we spend a lot of time learning when and how to bend/break/ignore regulations.

Happens all the time at all levels of leadership.  If you have about three days I can give you some pertinent examples of what the military (at least the USAF) does about regulations.

[miles]

I have read CAPM 39-1 cover to cover. The only address to headgear was the boonie, NBB, hawk mountain, or designing of a cover. Nothing about appropriate covers to where at the appropriate time. did I miss the rule?

[Eclipse]

Having said that....even those regulations that say "no deviations or additions allowed" are often deviated and even ignored by commanders and leaders at all levels.

What many REG HOUNDS here at CAPTALK don't understand about the way the military does business is that we spend a lot of time learning when and how to bend/break/ignore regulations.

Sadly, there's no way to argue with that because its true, and CAP itself cause the problem.  The only counter to that is rarely do most CAP members find themselves in a position where deviation is necessary for anything but convenience or personal preference, vs. life or property of the members.

Its usually "because I felt like it", "because I didn't feel like actually reading the regs...", and almost always allowed because of lack of enforcement will of higher HQ.

[miles]

I am the ESO for my squadron. I'm using the uniform amendment in 60-3 to create an alternate GT Uniform, part of the uniform is an orange hat. I know that is authorized.

[Eclipse]

I am the ESO for my squadron. I'm using the uniform amendment in 60-3 to create an alternate GT Uniform, part of the uniform is an orange hat. I know that is authorized.

A unit cannot create an "alternate GT uniform" on their own - any supplements must be at the Wing level and approved by NHQ.

The only option would be to have the commander formally designate the orange ball cap as the unit cap, and that may need wing approval (YMMV).

[lordmonar]

Sadly, there's no way to argue with that because its true, and CAP itself cause the problem.  The only counter to that is rarely do most CAP members find themselves in a position where deviation is necessary for anything but convenience or personal preference, vs. life or property of the members.

Its usually "because I felt like it", "because I didn't feel like actually reading the regs...", and almost always allowed because of lack of enforcement will of higher HQ.

Which is true for a majority of USAF violations as well.  Don't hold the USAF up on some pedestal....especially when uniforms are involved.  The USAF has the same sort of "local" deviations from the reg as CAP does.

Everything from ranger rolling their hats, unauthorised patches, unauthorised T-shirts, rolling their flight suit sleeves, crushing their flight caps.....you name something CAP does and I can find a USAF unit that does the same.

You want to argue weight and grooming issues!   Don't go there....because the USAF has the same issues on every base (AD, ANG and AFRES).

Regs are important....don't let me give you the impression that they are not.....but regs are a tool to get the mission done, keep us safe and keep us on the good side of the law.  Beyond that there is a lot of wiggle room.  The ONLY way to eliminate the wiggle room is for higher headquarters to care about it and to establish the trip lines for their subordinates.

This is true for any organisation.

[Hawk200]

Military regulations work both ways.....mostly they work on the "that which is not forbidden is permitted" model.

No, they do not. Especially, since many pubs usually state that any deviations are not authorized. 

It's been demonstrated before how "that which is not forbidden is permitted" is inherently flawed. This idea needs to go away.

[SarDragon]

I have read CAPM 39-1 cover to cover. The only address to headgear was the boonie, NBB, hawk mountain, or designing of a cover. Nothing about appropriate covers to where at the appropriate time. did I miss the rule?

Did you also look at the ICLs? Look at the ones that say uniform in the title.

[jb512]

What is the regulation? where is the regulation? I need to print it out to show them.

It's CAPM 39-1. Download, and dig it out from there.

Its important to remember for these types of conversations that in most cases our regulations tell us what we can do, to
the exclusion of anything else, which can be hard for people with no military experience to grasp, since most of the real
world works the other way.

If it doesn't say you can, you can't, and in the case of a conflict of regulation, its best to consult higher HQ.

I got to call the BS flag on that.  Military regulations work both ways.....mostly they work on the "that which is not forbidden is permitted" model.

From AFI36-2903, Table 1.2:

2.  The omission of a specific item or appearance standard does not automatically permit its wear.

3.  If it is not authorized; it is not authorized for wear.

[Al Sayre]

I was wondering about headgear for the BDU and blueberry uniforms. Are encampment hats or other activity covers authorized to wear at the squadron/wing/region level? Swear I read once that activity covers were authorized for the specific activity and during the activity only.

You're be correct. BDU is authorized patrol cap, baseball cap, squadron cap, and watch cap (I believe). Which blueberry uniform? The DFU is authorized all the same as the BDU's, except you can also go without a cap. The utility uniform is authorized a ball cap, or no cap.

Blue boonie hat is also authorized for BBDU's

[lordmonar]

Military regulations work both ways.....mostly they work on the "that which is not forbidden is permitted" model.

No, they do not. Especially, since many pubs usually state that any deviations are not authorized. 

It's been demonstrated before how "that which is not forbidden is permitted" is inherently flawed. This idea needs to go away.

Hawk...I don't know if you are or were in the USAF....but in my 22 years of AD service....that is exactly the way they work. 

Regs generally tell you what you MUST do, what you SHOULD do and what you CAN'T do.....everything else is free and open game.

Even with that said...even when they say "no deviations are authorised" there are many, many, many times I have willfilly, with benevolence aforethought, violated the regulations.

As I said before....we spend a lot of time training our leaders how to use the regulations and when and how to break them.

And as I have stated before....the USAF routinely violates 36-2903.

As for the concept that "that which is not forbidden is allowed"......the alternative is regulations that micro manage every aspect of every job in every location across the world.

For example....find me the regulation that covers combat gear and how to properly wear it.

By your interpretation we can't wear it as it is not in the AFI.

[jb512]

And here I am quoting regs after I just got done arguing with someone who wants me to shove my BDU hat in my cargo pocket just because the reg says to.

I'm such a tool now.   

[miles]

I have searched, emailed and made phone calls. and yet, have not found an answer on approved headgear.

[brasda91]

..but with the BDU, only the BDU cover or a squadron cap is authorized.

Keeping in mind, the squadron cap should only be worn at squadron activities.  Once you show up at any other level of activity, the correct cap is the BDU cap.  Needless to say, some Wing CC's inappropriately authorize squadron caps at Wing events.

[lordmonar]

I have searched, emailed and made phone calls. and yet, have not found an answer on approved headgear.

Squadron hats and BDU covers are the only approved hats.

Acitivity hats may be worn at the acitivity. (with a very few execptions).

If in doubt use your chain of command.

[lordmonar]

..but with the BDU, only the BDU cover or a squadron cap is authorized.

Keeping in mind, the squadron cap should only be worn at squadron activities.  Once you show up at any other level of activity, the correct cap is the BDU cap.  Needless to say, some Wing CC's inappropriately authorize squadron caps at Wing events.

Got to call BS on this one!

Unless a sepcific hat is mandated (and provided) by the acitivity any approved hat is okay to wear.

[Patterson]

^ true.  However if a Wing Hat is authorized and mandatory i.e. blue, or red or orange etc., does the member wear that out of the Wing to an activity in another wing that follows 39-1 or would the member be required to purchase the standard headgear i.e. BDU Cover.   

[PHall]

..but with the BDU, only the BDU cover or a squadron cap is authorized.

Keeping in mind, the squadron cap should only be worn at squadron activities.  Once you show up at any other level of activity, the correct cap is the BDU cap.  Needless to say, some Wing CC's inappropriately authorize squadron caps at Wing events.

CITE PLEASE!!!

[lordmonar]

^ true.  However if a Wing Hat is authorized and mandatory i.e. blue, or red or orange etc., does the member wear that out of the Wing to an activity in another wing that follows 39-1 or would the member be required to purchase the standard headgear i.e. BDU Cover.

Yes.

[Patterson]

^ Yes as in..... the member must wear whatever the required hat is for the wing they are visiting??

If so, that is a waste of money. 

[ol'fido]

Simple answer...Buy a BDU cover...It works for everyone. 

[lordmonar]

^ Yes as in..... the member must wear whatever the required hat is for the wing they are visiting??

If so, that is a waste of money.

Unless the activity specificaly states "you will wear XXX hat"...the hat you normally wear to your squadron meetings should be good....no matter what or where the activity is at.

[DC]

I have searched, emailed and made phone calls. and yet, have not found an answer on approved headgear.

Look at page 41 of CAPM 39-1, that addresses all authorized headgear for USAF style uniforms. Page 62, item 6 also specifies what is allowed for BDUs. If it isn't on that list, it isn't allowed.

[arajca]

^ Yes as in..... the member must wear whatever the required hat is for the wing they are visiting??

If so, that is a waste of money.

Unless the activity specificaly states "you will wear XXX hat"...the hat you normally wear to your squadron meetings should be good....no matter what or where the activity is at.

No. Items authorized by a wing commander may only be worn within that wing. Ref CAPM 39-1, Table 1-3. Line 2:

In all cases, these items will have no national significance or recognition as a
part of the CAP uniform. They will not be worn at summer encampments or
national events (cadet exchange, special activities, etc.), unless specifically
authorized by National Headquarters. They may be worn only while
performing the duty for which the use of the items was authorized.
Wing/region approved items will be worn only within the boundaries of the
authorizing commander.

emphasis mine

[Krapenhoeffer]

Uh, why not just do the thing authorized by the GTM task guide for ES? Wear an orange hard hat.

[Eclipse]

Uh, why not just do the thing authorized by the GTM task guide for ES? Wear an orange hard hat.

The GT Task book actually says:
The BDU cap may be replaced by a hard hat or bright colored cap based on mission needs.

Which equals "field use only", nor is there a specification of color.

In 99.99999999% of our operations there is no need for a hard hat, and they are generally 2-3 times the cost of the BDU hat.  Who is going to pay for that?

[jb512]

Uh, why not just do the thing authorized by the GTM task guide for ES? Wear an orange hard hat.

The GT Task book actually says:
The BDU cap may be replaced by a hard hat or bright colored cap based on mission needs.

Which equals "field use only", nor is there a specification of color. Note, there is no specification of color,

In 99.99999999% of our operations there is no need for a hard hat, and they are generally 2-3 times the cost of the BDU hat.  Who is going to pay for that?

Not to mention it would look kinda dorky unless you're doing ES in a construction site.  Or just stepped off the short bus...

[lordmonar]

^ Yes as in..... the member must wear whatever the required hat is for the wing they are visiting??

If so, that is a waste of money.

Unless the activity specificaly states "you will wear XXX hat"...the hat you normally wear to your squadron meetings should be good....no matter what or where the activity is at.

No. Items authorized by a wing commander may only be worn within that wing. Ref CAPM 39-1, Table 1-3. Line 2:

In all cases, these items will have no national significance or recognition as a
part of the CAP uniform. They will not be worn at summer encampments or
national events (cadet exchange, special activities, etc.), unless specifically
authorized by National Headquarters. They may be worn only while
performing the duty for which the use of the items was authorized.
Wing/region approved items will be worn only within the boundaries of the
authorizing commander.

emphasis mine

We are talking about squadron hats...not other special insignia, cords, ascots, et al.

[DakRadz]

Simple answer...Buy a BDU cover...It works for everyone. 

I second this- they only cost $6.95 from thehock.com

The shipping is free, many activities require you to at least arrive in a BDU cover, and there can be no argument that you are out of uniform because of wearing the BDU cover (use common sense with that statement)


P.S. I'm BACK!!!!!!!!!!!
And almost a cadet officer ^_^

[raivo]

That is all.

[Patterson]

Simple answer...Buy a BDU cover...It works for everyone. 

I second this- they only cost $6.95 from thehock.com

The shipping is free, many activities require you to at least arrive in a BDU cover, and there can be no argument that you are out of uniform because of wearing the BDU cover (use common sense with that statement)

Ya...no.  Sorry.....I could never support that stance.  Members are getting screwed if their Wing has a "hat policy", if they attend activities outside the Wing that require the BDU Cover.  That's not right to have to buy the BDU Cover for a specific activity.  Simplest thing to do....eliminate all hats but the BDU Cover. 

[ol'fido]

Does your wing have a "hat" policy(whatever ) that doesn't allow you to wear the BDU hat?

[davidsinn]

If my wing had a policy that I had to wear a hat other than the BDU hat I would straight up disobey it and take my case to region and national if need be.

[Major Lord]

As far as I know, there is no such thing as a CAP "Hat" , perhaps in the secret part of the regulations.... We have ( appropriately enough) "Caps" (Service, BDU, Flight, etc.) and Berets ( for those people who love the French and the Girl Scouts) but no "hats"! If we had a hat, I vote for one with Mouse Ears, and embroidered names. Also, we don't have "covers" Only "headgear". If you wanted to be a Marine, your parents should not have gotten married.

Major Lord

[BillB]

Major Lord

When will Vanguard stock the hat with ears? and is the embroidered name on blue background?

[TCMajor]

Most mouse ear hats are navy blue, so you would need the navy blue backround.  Of course, as with the BBDU Cap, I would think you could wear hard grade insignia.   

[Major Lord]

I think we would want a distinctive color, to make sure that no one mistakes us for White House Staffers.....

Major Lord

[TCMajor]

 :clap:

[CAP Marine]

I am laughing too hard to take offense to the comment about the parents Majorlord. Hilarious!