Holding the attention of a non military type senior

Started by AndyA60, February 24, 2020, 07:12:10 PM

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AndyA60

What about the senior, who maybe professional, even has military experience, but wants to do civic work and help the community, who does not have children. Is there a spot for them? Seems like most combo units are so focused on the kids its like they are funneled into that roll. When the parents should be. Then the aspect of uniforms, etc. when the person actually wants to work/volunteer but the pomp and circumstance and government red tape of the unit gets in the way. Is CAP really just more of a Jr.ROTC and not heavily active in their local community, or is this just reflective of certain groups? Where does your group stand?

GaryVC

I have been thinking about this in a general way recently and have realized that our most productive members are either parents (or grandparents) of cadets or who are former cadets. However, there are many positions in CAP who can be filled by anyone who has an interest in the field. That includes the whole range of ES positions, finance, admin, personnel, IT, safety, transportation, etc.

Possibly because about 90 percent of our seniors have served in the military, we aren't hung up about that and may be more relaxed about the military aspects of CAP than some units.

Holding Pattern

Quote from: AndyA60 on February 24, 2020, 07:12:10 PMWhat about the senior, who maybe professional, even has military experience, but wants to do civic work and help the community, who does not have children. Is there a spot for them? Seems like most combo units are so focused on the kids its like they are funneled into that roll. When the parents should be. Then the aspect of uniforms, etc. when the person actually wants to work/volunteer but the pomp and circumstance and government red tape of the unit gets in the way. Is CAP really just more of a Jr.ROTC and not heavily active in their local community, or is this just reflective of certain groups? Where does your group stand?

This falls into the "be the change you wish to see in the world" category of ideas.

If a SM wants to see their squadron do more community engagement, they need to:

1. Develop the idea into a concept.
2. Sell the concept to the command structure and members.
3. Own the concept to process development and deployment.

Just like every CAP member's development in PD and ES is incumbent on themselves to move forward, so too are ideas to elevate the squadron in a local community.

Eclipse

#3
Quote from: AndyA60 on February 24, 2020, 07:12:10 PMWhat about the senior, who maybe professional, even has military experience, but wants to do civic work and help the community, who does not have children. Is there a spot for them? Seems like most combo units are so focused on the kids its like they are funneled into that roll. When the parents should be. Then the aspect of uniforms, etc. when the person actually wants to work/volunteer but the pomp and circumstance and government red tape of the unit gets in the way. Is CAP really just more of a Jr.ROTC and not heavily active in their local community, or is this just reflective of certain groups? Where does your group stand?

This, and your comment in the other thread are so disrespectful and slanted it's hard to
know where to start, so one must conclude you've either had a "bad CAP day" or are trolling.

For starters, cadets are a mission of CAP, not a membership category, if you don't want to
be around them, you're in the wrong organizaiton.

As to the senior program, who do you think keeps the lights on and the doors open?

If the focus of your unit is not where you think it should be - say something, change something,
or move on.  Group or Wing could probably use help NESA, NCSAs, etc.  Or just participate in ES training
and forgo the unit meetings.

Babysitting and pomp and circumstance?  Save it.

Again, why on earth do people join paramilitary organizations and then complain about
"all the paramilitary"?

"That Others May Zoom"

etodd

Quote from: Eclipse on February 24, 2020, 08:27:54 PMAgain, why on earth do people join paramilitary organizations and then complain about
"all the paramilitary"?

Ummm. For the neat toys?
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

Eclipse

Quote from: etodd on February 24, 2020, 08:41:58 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 24, 2020, 08:27:54 PMAgain, why on earth do people join paramilitary organizations and then complain about
"all the paramilitary"?

Ummm. For the neat toys?

Yep, that's literally the problem. 

"That Others May Zoom"

MacGruff

There is a place for everyone in CAP if you want to help. I will leave the negative reactions to some of your statements to others, as I see Eclipse has already jumped on some of them. However, let's look at the positive side:

- There is a Community Service Ribbon that cadets can earn - that proverbial "non-military type senior" you quoted could be just the kind of person who would be eager to make the arrangement to get the cadets in front of the organizations who could use the cadets to earn those ribbons.
- In addition to the three missions that we have as an organization, we need to RUN the organization. That is not necessarily done in uniform, during meeting nights, or in a meeting format. Maybe you "non-military type senior" would be interested in taking on those roles to help the rest of the squadron or group or wing? There are many opportunities out there.

I have several other suggestions, and if you are not just trolling, feel free to PM me. I'll be happy to help you find a happy place.


SarDragon

Quote from: GaryVC on February 24, 2020, 08:10:51 PMI have been thinking about this in a general way recently and have realized that our most productive members are either parents (or grandparents) of cadets or who are former cadets. However, there are many positions in CAP who can be filled by anyone who has an interest in the field. That includes the whole range of ES positions, finance, admin, personnel, IT, safety, transportation, etc.

I am in a Senior squadron, and many of our members have no military experience. Our predominate experience factor is pilot certificates, from 100+ hours, to 5,000+ hours with ratings all the way up to ATP. We even have a couple of fling-wingers.

QuotePossibly because about 90 percent of our seniors have served in the military, we aren't hung up about that and may be more relaxed about the military aspects of CAP than some units.

That may have been true many years ago, but that figure is now closer to 50%, possibly on the lower side.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Fester

Quote from: SarDragon on February 25, 2020, 01:43:27 AM
Quote from: GaryVC on February 24, 2020, 08:10:51 PMI have been thinking about this in a general way recently and have realized that our most productive members are either parents (or grandparents) of cadets or who are former cadets. However, there are many positions in CAP who can be filled by anyone who has an interest in the field. That includes the whole range of ES positions, finance, admin, personnel, IT, safety, transportation, etc.

I am in a Senior squadron, and many of our members have no military experience. Our predominate experience factor is pilot certificates, from 100+ hours, to 5,000+ hours with ratings all the way up to ATP. We even have a couple of fling-wingers.

QuotePossibly because about 90 percent of our seniors have served in the military, we aren't hung up about that and may be more relaxed about the military aspects of CAP than some units.

That may have been true many years ago, but that figure is now closer to 50%, possibly on the lower side.

I have 18 SM in my unit.  Only 3 are former military.  15 are members of current cadets.  I am the only one that is a former Cadet.  Although I do have 3 cadets that are about to transition.

So 90%?  I highly doubt that is anything other than localized to your unit.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: SarDragon on February 25, 2020, 01:43:27 AM
Quote from: GaryVC on February 24, 2020, 08:10:51 PMI have been thinking about this in a general way recently and have realized that our most productive members are either parents (or grandparents) of cadets or who are former cadets. However, there are many positions in CAP who can be filled by anyone who has an interest in the field. That includes the whole range of ES positions, finance, admin, personnel, IT, safety, transportation, etc.

I am in a Senior squadron, and many of our members have no military experience. Our predominate experience factor is pilot certificates, from 100+ hours, to 5,000+ hours with ratings all the way up to ATP. We even have a couple of fling-wingers.

QuotePossibly because about 90 percent of our seniors have served in the military, we aren't hung up about that and may be more relaxed about the military aspects of CAP than some units.

That may have been true many years ago, but that figure is now closer to 50%, possibly on the lower side.

I believe his 90% figure was specifically for his squadron.


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

etodd

Quote from: Eclipse on February 24, 2020, 08:42:46 PM
Quote from: etodd on February 24, 2020, 08:41:58 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 24, 2020, 08:27:54 PMAgain, why on earth do people join paramilitary organizations and then complain about
"all the paramilitary"?

Ummm. For the neat toys?

Yep, that's literally the problem. 

Well ... whatever it takes to get warm bodies to join. Without access to neat toys, imagine how quickly we would shrink.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

Eclipse

Quote from: etodd on February 25, 2020, 03:59:10 PMWell ... whatever it takes to get warm bodies to join.

That attitude may be fine for an RC club.

It doesn't work for an organizaiton like CAP and is the root cause
of the current situation.

"That Others May Zoom"

TheSkyHornet

I have a senior member under me (Leadership Officer) who has no experience as a former cadet and no prior military experience. He has demonstrated himself to be extremely proactive at learning the training elements of the Cadet Program (to include the military-style format of some of the training curriculum...drill, uniforms, etc.) and has been absolutely crucial at helping me to breakdown terminology and definitions that maybe don't carry well from military jargon and military-style teaching to a civilian corps that doesn't have that experience. It's a really nice balance/mediator role.

And, yes, the Cadet Program is really just a JROTC-like program (not CAP overall, obviously).

ZigZag911

CAP is the Auxiliary of the USAF, a branch of the military.

Historically,  our original is deeply rooted in wartime service during World War II.

Even within senior squadron's there is going to be an element of military structure and ceremony.

As another poster correctly observed,  if you aren't open to this, then it is very likely that you would be happier offering your service to a different organization.

It parallels the concept of homogeneous assignment (getting round pegs in matching holes!)

If volunteer service frustrates you because of the way the group is structured,  go somewhere you find more to your liking,..don't force yourself to do something you just don't like  - you'll make everyone miserable,  especially yourself.

etodd

#14
Quote from: ZigZag911 on February 25, 2020, 07:31:16 PMIf volunteer service frustrates you because of the way the group is structured,  go somewhere you find more to your liking,..don't force yourself to do something you just don't like  - you'll make everyone miserable,  especially yourself.

Me ... I'm not frustrated at all. Very happy to be in the Wing and Squadron I'm in. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. If a Senior member wants to take advantage of all that the military side has to offer, wear blues often, its there for them. If someone else just wants to enjoy all the other parts, and happy in a polo, they can stay just as busy doing those parts.

There is a place for everyone.  :)

The rub comes when one of those two people cannot abide with the other one.  Sad.


.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

Eclipse

Quote from: etodd on February 25, 2020, 09:28:27 PMIf a Senior member wants to take advantage of all that the military side has to offer, wear blues often, its there for them.

Is it?  How does that work, exactly, when any number of members in the
unit actively discourage the paramilitary aspects of the organizaiton?

Quote from: etodd on February 25, 2020, 02:26:16 AMMine is composite. But the Cadets meet upstairs and the Seniors upstairs. Occasional group meeting.

This is interesting as well, because you have all but stated any number of times that
you're part of a Senior Unit.
Being in a Composite Unit with Cadets on another floor is not the same thing, and
that you would characterize your unit as Seniors only, and "not meeting in the same place"
in that context speaks volumes.

Quote from: etodd on February 25, 2020, 09:28:27 PMThe rub comes when one of those two people cannot abide with the other one.

There isn't supposed to be anything to "abide".

"That Others May Zoom"

TheSkyHornet

The uniform doesn't "make it military." There's an entire culture associated with militarism, such as what you'll also see in police and fire departments. It's a form of conduct, camaraderie, bearing/discipline, traditions, customs/courtesies...

These are the parts that I would expect every volunteer in CAP to be prepared to conform to, and these are also the areas I often see going unenforced and not taught to senior members early on. If all the new parent who joins wants to do is schedule O-Flights, fine by me; but don't get irritated when I don't include you in certain cadet classes as an instructor/mentor. I need someone who can lock down those elements in order to have those conversations with cadets.

etodd


Quote from: Eclipse on February 25, 2020, 09:45:33 PMThis is interesting as well, because you have all but stated any number of times that
you're part of a Senior Unit.

You'll have to find a quote for that one.  I'm in a Composite. Never said otherwise.  The Cadets meet every Tuesday. The Seniors meet 1st and 3rd Tuesdays. We meet in separate areas of the facility. Except for certain special occasions, where we will meet together.  Occasionally the Seniors will meet during the off weeks for specific training. I held training for Mission Scanners recently for example. Hoping to start Observer classes soon.  We stay busy. :)
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: etodd on February 25, 2020, 09:59:25 PMI'm in a Composite. The Cadets meet every Tuesday. The Seniors meet 1st and 3rd Tuesdays.

Similar setup with us: cadets meet weekly, seniors meet first and third week.

I'm personally opposed to it. I think it creates distance between members and animosity that we're a "cadet squadron" (when we're chartered as a composite). There doesn't seem to be a lot for seniors to do, however. Not that it's my issue. Glad I'm "not over there."

etodd

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 25, 2020, 10:03:48 PM
Quote from: etodd on February 25, 2020, 09:59:25 PMI'm in a Composite. The Cadets meet every Tuesday. The Seniors meet 1st and 3rd Tuesdays.

Similar setup with us: cadets meet weekly, seniors meet first and third week.

I'm personally opposed to it. I think it creates distance between members and animosity that we're a "cadet squadron" (when we're chartered as a composite). There doesn't seem to be a lot for seniors to do, however. Not that it's my issue. Glad I'm "not over there."

I admit I haven't visited a Composite where everyone meets together at the same time. I'd like to see how its done. For us, the Cadets have a full couple hours of activities, and the Seniors do as well. Not sure how you would combine the meeting without it going 4-5 hours.  Do less I suppose. Do you alternate at meetings? Let the Cadet Commander have the first 30 minutes for Cadet things, then the Senior Commander for Senior things and back and forth for 2 hours?  On PT night, do the Seniors go outside and sit on a park bench and watch the Cadets run the mile? ;)

I guess there are ways to do a combined meeting. It just seems like less would be accomplished than we are now.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."