CAP Talk

Operations => Aviation & Flying Activities => Topic started by: CASH172 on May 13, 2008, 07:42:11 PM

Title: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: CASH172 on May 13, 2008, 07:42:11 PM
I thought I'd post this here since there are bound to be people interested:

QuoteTo all NJ Wing and NER members:

CAP will be participating in the upcoming USAF Air Force Week and the capstone Air Expo event being held at McGuire AFB 31 May and 1 June.  It's important to realize that this is not the ordinary McGuire AFB/305th AMW local air show, but a HQ USAF event that is being driven by the Air Staff out of Washington, D.C.  For that reason, there are several differences in this year's show, as well as an Op Tempo that is far from routine.  This is the main reason we have not had sufficient information to share with all of you until now.

Relying on lessons learned from prior events, there are several key points I want to emphasize about this year's event:

    * Safety: Every activity, every plan and every contingency is based on a safety culture being the imperative and fundamental basis of everything we do.  Prevention of heat injuries, physical injuries, vehicle mishaps and any other impairment of a thoroughly safe environment is my #1 priority.
    * Limited staffing.  Based on Air Force taskings we have received, CAP needs for static display, and recruiting and internal support requirements with a limited amount of "flex" for shift relief and no-shows, this year's event is strictly limited to a total of 375 CAP personnel.  Registration details will be announced next week.
    * Administration -- Registration, In & Out processing:  To provide a much smoother support process this year, we will use the Encampment Management Program, a software application written by a CAP member that we have found to be extremely suitable for all large-scale CAP activities.  Registration and payment will be conducted online this year.
    * Unit cohesion:  To maximize unit cohesion, members will be assigned to perform duties with members from the unit they came with, and cadets will be supervised by CAP officers they are familiar with.  Further, all CAP vehicles will be operated by a member of the Wing they originate from (NJ vans driven by NJ members, NY vans driven by NY Wg members, etc.).  All CAP vehicles will be tasked for various transportation functions, so please plan accordingly to bring enough CAP Officers with CAP Drivers Licenses to operate vans while still having enough CAP Officers to maintain adequate supervision of Cadets.
    * CAP Officer-to-Cadet ratios:  Related to the point above, we are targeting an ideal ratio of 1 CAP Officer to 5 Cadets, the bare minimum is 1 CAP Officer to 10 Cadets plus an operator for the CAP vehicle if you bring one.
    * Appearance & Uniform standards: Strict uniform standards have been established by the Air Force for this event and must be adhered to; options or substitutions for the specific items listed below will not be authorized.  Members will be inspected at in-processing for conformity to these standards; if they are not met, the member will either be turned away or assigned to rear area duties on Fort Dix (depending on transportation, distance, etc.).
          o Members should bring a complete set of BDUs with the standard BDU cap ONLY and a complete set of Blues.
          o Each member must bring their ES orange vest.
          o Duty uniform for direct support of Air Force taskings will be:  A black "STAFF" T-Shirt, two sets of which will be issued to every member at in-processing, BDU pants and black boots.  In other words, standard field uniform with printed T-shirt and without BDU shirts.  I believe this will be a real advantage in mitigating heat injuries.
          o Most duties in the CAP static display/recruiting area will be short sleeve blues shirt with open collar.  For the rear area, the duty uniform will be BDUs (with the issued "STAFF" T-shirt on underneath; the Rear Area Ops Chief may authorize de-blousing depending on weather conditions).
          o Haircuts, uniform serviceability and cleanliness, and shined footwear are all a must.
          o The above uniforms assume fair, warm weather.  Options for cool or inclement weather are still being worked out with the Air Force and will be communicated as soon as they are available.
          o Please do not request authorization for uniform variations. Everything outlined here is at the specific direction of the Air Force.  Three 4-star generals are attending this event, and it required extensive negotiations for CAP to be able to wear uniforms at all (AF JROTC, Boy Scouts and other volunteer organizations will be in distinctive T-Shirts and Khaki shorts).  The Air Force has given us a unique privilege, and we must present high standards to earn that trust.
    * Billeting:  Billets will be provided on Fort Dix.  The exact location and sign-in instructions will be sent out later this week.
    * Meals:  We are approved to use an Army Mess Hall at Fort Dix for dinner on Friday, Breakfast and Dinner on both Saturday and Sunday.  Members will be on their own for lunch on each day.
    * Costs:  Registration for the Air Show is $60 per member for the full weekend.  This includes billeting, meals as described above, and two staff T-Shirts.
    * There is an alternative for Cadets who are only able to attend one day and for CAP Officers who are available for only one day or wish to commute (there is no commuter option for Cadets) and this will cost $35.


You can register for the event online at the following URL:  http://njcap2008mcguireairshow.eventbrite.com/

I know that each and every one of you shares my desire for a safe and fun event that supports the Air Force and shows CAP's best capabilities.  I look forward to seeing many of you again and meeting many members for the first time.

The CAP Project Officer for this event is Maj Ron Wiley.  He can be reached by e-mail at coyote4@optonline.net.  Any questions you have regarding duties and assignments available, registration or any other questions can be directed to him and he will coordinate with the appropriate staff member.

Finally, if you want to attend the event as a spectator, you are more than welcome to do so.  However, CAP members who attend the event without registering and being available for support assignments may NOT wear ANY form of CAP uniform.

Thank you all for your continuing commitment to performing missions for America.


Regards,

Col. Robert J. McCabe, CAP

Commander

New Jersey Wing
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: mikeylikey on May 13, 2008, 08:37:18 PM
Is my math right......

375 people
$60.00 per person
Total is $22,000


Wow.....pay to work your but off for the AF.  Hmmmm....count me out. 

That is a huge amount of money being generated.  PLUS we are buying "STAFF" T-shirts?  WTF

"being allowed to wear CAP uniforms" by the AF??  Whats up with that?

I am guessing "meals provided" will be a can of soda and one slice of pizza (if that) like last year??

I see this turning into a huge mess just like last year. 

Oh and if you don't fit the "ideal image" of what NJWG believes a CAP member should look like.....you will be "quarantined" out of site and forced into some sort of menial labor on Fort Dix.

Last time I was at DIX.....billeting was free for CAP.  Did that just change?

Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: 0 on May 13, 2008, 08:46:55 PM
Well USAF does allow us to wear uniforms to begin with.  But you're right having them tell us for this it's okay is kind of well weird. 

Although for paying to work it maybe the meals will be more than a can of soda and a slice.  There's always hoping. 

And I see no problem having to pay for the T-shirts, I mean they have to print them up and all. 

But the cost being 60 could be a little much.  What about those that can't afford the 60?  Do they have to stand on the side lines and wish they could go?
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: notaNCO forever on May 13, 2008, 08:55:49 PM
 From what happened last year I never plan on going.
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: Pylon on May 13, 2008, 09:11:01 PM
I can't imagine anybody from this area going to the McGuire activity again for free, let alone having to pay.  No thanks. 

We paid last year, too, and we got told there wasn't enough water for us working in the sun on the flightline for 8 hours, not enough food for lunch for our cadets to have anything, no alternatives other than undercooked hot dogs or hamburgers for dinner for vegetarian members (who declared that in advance on their Form 31's).  I wouldn't pay $60 for the privilege of working in likely poor conditions.  But come to think of it, I wouldn't ask my cadets to pay $60 for the privilege of doing menial labor regardless of the conditions.

If I ever take my cadets to an airshow out of the area again, it will not be so our cadets can be free labor - emptying trash cans, FOD walking, hawking programs for private vendors and the like.  No; We'll go to learn, observe, have some fun and enjoy aviation.

Our cadets are not in CAP for that.
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: mikeylikey on May 13, 2008, 09:22:13 PM
^ Well said Mike!   :clap:

Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: bricktonfire on May 13, 2008, 09:42:39 PM
i went last year i had fun but was bored of my mined  :( by the 2nd day i was tired and on top of that i was sick (not the food but the climate). it was the most fun i have ever had but as a cadet i thought that it was poorly plan there were too many people there. and as a cadet Airmen 1st class i thought i was treat badly by some of the cadets. the first day of the show i was harassed by my flight Sgt. well my hole flight was. the Flight commander was a Sea Cadet she was wonderful i hope that this year it is planed better and god bless any cadet that end up working there

PS the milk that they give as was horrible
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: CASH172 on May 14, 2008, 03:02:57 AM
Just so I know, is anyone from here planning on going?
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: CASH172 on May 14, 2008, 03:36:20 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 13, 2008, 08:37:18 PM
Last time I was at DIX.....billeting was free for CAP.  Did that just change?

Depends on exactly where we're staying.  The 421st generally does not charge us for using their center.  Mostly due to a former Spaatz cadet being the XO there.  I can't speak for the Army owned facilities, but lately they have been charging for CAP use, mostly the encampment.
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: afgeo4 on May 14, 2008, 04:01:56 AM
I had a fairly interesting time last year and got to actually enjoy the work and the challenges. I worked directly under Maj. Wiley last year, so it was handled well... unlike the rest of the activity.

I would go again, but $60? Can't afford that! No way!

The T-shirts are staff T-shirts and they're the same for everyone who's working the show... USAF and CAP, so I understand that cost and why USAF had to let us wear the uniforms. I think Maj. Wiley will do a great job this year as the project officer. They're severely limiting the amount of people to about 1/4 of last year and they're using encampment software for staff/lodging assignments. Lessons learned.

I simply cannot afford this.
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: jimmydeanno on May 14, 2008, 12:04:32 PM
Wow, someone must be doing something wrong...

Air Power Over Hampton Roads Airshow's, 2005, 2006:  Free space for recruiting, make up your own uniform decisions, put your plane on the tarmac, etc.  Cadets were offered to help with the airshow as staff.  They stood along the flight line and kept the crowd where they were supposed to be (not that the Jersey barriers didn't help), handed out water on golf carts with an SF person and help point out where things were on the flight line.  They gave us T-Shirts, coordinated meet and greets with the Thunderbirds and various other pilots, gave us VIP tickets to the Commander's tent, gave us free lunch and breakfast (closed for dinner), we got to go to the "afterparty" at the O-Club as personal guests of the 1FW CC.  They were awesome, nobody died, nobody went without food.

Pease ANG Base Airshow 2007: Free recruiting booth space, 2 aircraft on the tarmac, our 4X4 with the comm gear on it, tent, etc.  Make up your own uniform decisions.  Oh, and they were looking for volunteers to help with parking, etc.  But the volunteers got paid $10.00 / hr / volunteer.  Yep, that's right - they paid us to help and the money went to each squadron that helped AND gave us water and food all weekend.

I don't know who we're negotiating with down in NJ, but someone needs to be enlightened...

Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: SJFedor on May 14, 2008, 11:35:28 PM
*sigh* BOHICA

Won't be going.
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: RADIOMAN015 on May 24, 2008, 01:55:40 PM
 ???  Personally, I'd keep the cadet & senior "slave labor" for the AF down to about 4 total (each day) for each member.  This is a pretty strange situation where member's of CAP have to wear "staff" Tshirts (surely the black color will prevent heat injuries (perhaps it should have been a light color with dark "staff" lettering).  The AF, AFRES has plenty of people at McGuire to require 315 CAP personnel to assist the AF 'tasking" seems very high.  As far as costs go, I would think that if CAP (and others) are providing so much support, there could be a bigger break on the food/lodging costs.   Again I'd be interested to see how may hours each cadet/senior is going to have to provide support to AF tasking.  This letter almost appears to be like CAP had to beg to pay money to provide support to the AF.   Although I believe that it is good experience for cadets & seniors to provide "some" support at these "open house" activities, there needs to be a limitation on the amount of time "volunteers" provide support so that they can also attend Airshow spectator events and view static aircraft displays.   
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: mikeylikey on May 24, 2008, 10:18:18 PM
Everyone don't forget, this Airshow is only a small portion of "Air Force Week" in the Philadelphia area.  PAWG has some activities in Philly that are FREE to attend in coordination with the AF. 

New Jersey.......what happened?  Someone got walked all over with this Air Show setup gig. 
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: afgeo4 on May 25, 2008, 03:17:03 AM
Yeah, I don't get it...

Visiting the show: Free
Working at the show: $60

I'm no accountant, but I think something's screwy with that math.
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: mikeylikey on May 25, 2008, 04:14:59 AM
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 25, 2008, 03:17:03 AM
Yeah, I don't get it...

Visiting the show: Free
Working at the show: $60

I'm no accountant, but I think something's screwy with that math.

I had to break out the TI-86 from 1989 to figure that out also.  After adding it all up, I came to the conclusion that the AF can "sit and spin" if they think charging Volunteers more money to work an Airshow is good business between them and CAP.  The Staff T-shirt thing is a joke.  It is a CAP-specific shirt that was more than likely invented to get everyone in the same uniform.  Bad form NJ. 
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: afgeo4 on May 26, 2008, 05:09:07 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 25, 2008, 04:14:59 AM
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 25, 2008, 03:17:03 AM
Yeah, I don't get it...

Visiting the show: Free
Working at the show: $60

I'm no accountant, but I think something's screwy with that math.

I had to break out the TI-86 from 1989 to figure that out also.  After adding it all up, I came to the conclusion that the AF can "sit and spin" if they think charging Volunteers more money to work an Airshow is good business between them and CAP.  The Staff T-shirt thing is a joke.  It is a CAP-specific shirt that was more than likely invented to get everyone in the same uniform.  Bad form NJ. 
I was under the impression that everyone working at the show, CAP and USAF would be wearing that t-shirt.
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: mikeylikey on May 26, 2008, 06:42:35 AM
^ Yes and NO.......CAP (NJWG) is having CAP specific shirts printed up, while the Air Show is printing generic (cheaper shirts) that are free to all DOD staffers (read, Air Force, Army and Navy personell)
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: Cecil DP on May 26, 2008, 09:47:11 PM
The people who dreamed this up either think all CAP members get per diem or are independently wealthy. Good way to get support for the Air Show.
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: Turk on May 26, 2008, 10:01:48 PM
I got quite and earful from cadets who participated last year.  :o
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: afgeo4 on May 28, 2008, 06:02:29 AM
Quote from: Turk on May 26, 2008, 10:01:48 PM
I got quite and earful from cadets who participated last year.  :o
Would they be cadets if we didn't get earfuls after every event?

There were cadets there who took the good with the bad and tried to make the best of it and there were cadets who sat in dark corners whining all day long. Many weren't prepared to work. Most were expecting McGuire Hilton with 3 catered meals.

Now I don't think the event went right, but honestly, I think many units sent cadets and senior members who weren't ready for overnight activities far from home too. Thankfully, there are many lessons that we've all learned from this that will help us all to be better members of CAP.
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: Pylon on May 28, 2008, 12:39:54 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 28, 2008, 06:02:29 AM
Now I don't think the event went right, but honestly, I think many units sent cadets and senior members who weren't ready for overnight activities far from home too. Thankfully, there are many lessons that we've all learned from this that will help us all to be better members of CAP.

Actually, I think a more accurate description would be that many units sent members expecting things like water, food, shelter, basic human needs, personnel accountability and cadet protection would be provided for.  Instead, they found out that after they worked a 12-hour day in the sun, that water was perpetually unavailable even during the hottest parts of the day, cadets went without meals for up to 18+ hours due to food shortages and distribution problems, cadets of both genders were mingling inappropriately at night with no supervision nor plans for such, radio communication went down at night, scheduling was non-existent, nobody knew where cadets were assigned or where they were half of the time, there were dozens of unsafe situations and all around it was a complete charlie foxtrot right down to the very basics.

Members found out quickly that it was very truthfully every man for himself at times.  Yes, there was a lot of complaining and rightfully so.  If a cadet didn't complain loudly about not having eaten or not getting any water to their duty station in the sun for over 4 hours, they wouldn't have gotten anything at all.  You had to complain regularly to get the very basics.

Furthermore, I didn't learn any lessons that would make me a better member of CAP except that my squadron will never participate in anything hosted or organized by New Jersey wing again.  I know a squadron commander of a unit with 120+ cadets who has said the same thing.  We're not alone.

But hey, if you want to pay New Jersey Wing $60 to go be unsupported, unfed, unhydrated slave labor emptying trash bins or hawking $20 program books for a private company for hours on end -  be my guest.  You might even be granted the privilege of wearing your CAP uniform!   ::) :P
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: mikeylikey on May 28, 2008, 04:34:45 PM
^ Well said Mike.  It was terrible, there was no accountability, and the organizers last year really had no regard for the welfare of the members attending the event.  When I got the call that my 12 Cadets got one slice of pizza (the day they ran out of undercooked hamburgers) and one can of soda and NJWG totally trashed the building they were living in, I went to McGuire last summer and drove them all back that night.

(Funny story, some Navy Cadet type tried to tell me I couldn't take them without them cleaning up their living areas first.  hahahahha.  I was even in ACU's and reminded said Cadet, "When you decide to talk back to an Officer, do it at attention")  However, first I took them all to the PX and got them dinner (which I paid for, and should have sent a bill to NJWG). 

I even outfitted my attendees in proper CAP uniform (BDU Covers instead of Orange ball caps, sans PAWG)....and they still got shafted.  So ya, $60.00 to "pay and play" NOT Worth my time, my members time or anyone else's efforts this year. 

2007 McGuire Air Show= Worst organized event in NER EVER.  2008 McGuire Air Show=lame and not worth $60.00 (which I need to decide to either put toward renewing membership, or Taco Bell next week)

Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: notaNCO forever on May 28, 2008, 04:37:39 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 28, 2008, 04:34:45 PM
2007 McGuire Air Show= Worst organized event in NER EVER.  2008 McGuire Air Show=lame and not worth $60.00 (which I need to decide to either put toward renewing membership, or Taco Bell next week)



Taco Bell would be the better choice.
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: mikeylikey on May 28, 2008, 05:08:52 PM
Quote from: NCO forever on May 28, 2008, 04:37:39 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 28, 2008, 04:34:45 PM
2007 McGuire Air Show= Worst organized event in NER EVER.  2008 McGuire Air Show=lame and not worth $60.00 (which I need to decide to either put toward renewing membership, or Taco Bell next week)



Taco Bell would be the better choice.

It is looking like I may be moving that way as well.  I want to keep my membership up when I am forcibly airdropped into some god forsaken thrift market in Afghanistan, but I think I am getting burned out with CAP.  I don't have any respect for the Wing Leadership anymore, and have turned down various positions on Wing Staff because they treat their staffers like total crap.  A 1 to 1.55 year leave from CAP may be warranted.  Plus, I can use my money I would have dropped on CAP to really "live the good life".  Taco Bell or Chinese food everynight, I can start my Walmart DVD collecting back up, I will actually be able to get through a week of not having Cadets call me (and their parents) to go over information that I already presented to them 50 times previous. 

Ya......getting the burn out here.   :'(
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: 0 on May 28, 2008, 05:13:51 PM
I was hoping to go to the Air Show, but things look to crazy for me to get there. 
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: mikeylikey on May 28, 2008, 06:10:14 PM
^ I highly reccomend going to see the show, but I do not reccomend working the show.  It actually is not a bad airshow. 
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: ZigZag911 on May 29, 2008, 10:24:39 PM
Here's what puzzles me:

1) CAP personnel are working free for USAF
2) CAP personnel are being charged to stay in barracks

Am I the only one sees something wrong with this picture?

While I'm on the subject, why is NJW getting their own Teeshirts made, then selling them to participants?

And who is the genius, CAP or USAF, who decided black was the best color to use in NJ heat & humidity? Ah, the special sound of cadets passing out on the tarmac!!
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: mikeylikey on May 29, 2008, 10:49:46 PM
^ There are T-Shirts being made by the Event organizers, given free to military personell.  There is a generic "Staff t-shirt" that just says "Staff" on the back, no writing on the front for 12 bucks.  CAP (NJWG) is silkscreening an emblem and "Civil Air Patrol" on the front of the ones they are mandating. 

Billeting is free to all personell at Ft Dix working the Air Show.  I called. 

Billeting is 25 bucks per night if you want to stay on the McGuire side in the VEQ.

I can't believe we really need "Staff" T-Shirts to begin with.  I can't believe the AF said "PAY $60.00".  I also can't believe anyone in CAP would want to work their buts off to make the Air Show Company money.  Really......assigned to the Beer and Hotdog booth making money for the Air Show Company is crap.  If anything CAP should have a few booths there selling soda and bottles of water. 

I understand there are costs associated with CAP membership, but paying to serve the AF, when our service should be welcomed by them is crazy. 

I think this was a ploy on someones part to either make money, or the AF trying to make sure CAP does not participate.  Where the crap was our State Director when this craziness came out.  He is rarely in his office, and never can be found. 
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: MIKE on May 29, 2008, 10:51:13 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on May 29, 2008, 10:24:39 PMAnd who is the genius, CAP or USAF, who decided black was the best color to use in NJ heat & humidity? Ah, the special sound of cadets passing out on the tarmac!!

Army brown isn't that much better.  At least a "compliant" black t-shirt can be worn with either the BDU or Field Uniform.
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: JC004 on May 29, 2008, 10:58:17 PM
I'm glad to hear people are cherishing their memories of this event.  It sounded like it went really well last year.  I heard the same stuff from other folks who went and I talked to after the weekend.  At least the feelings seem pretty unanimous. 
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: CASH172 on May 30, 2008, 12:42:55 AM
I just looked at the airshow map.  It appears the CAP static display is the MOST farthest away from the show public entrance.   ???
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: mikeylikey on May 30, 2008, 01:17:54 AM
^ Maybe the AF is embarrassed of CAP.  Thats what I am starting to think.  Can't wear your uniforms, can't be billeted with all the other staffers, and CAP is not operating any for profit vending tents or booths. 

hmmmm..........
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: afgeo4 on May 30, 2008, 05:17:28 AM
1. One of the main reasons why so many people showed up last time is the promise of money being made at concessions that would go back to the volunteer's unit. That didn't happen. It's not happening this year either, but at least they're not telling us it will.

2. The black t-shirt is used so it can be worn under the BDU blouse (it's an authorized uniform item, so saves someone the cost of buying another black t-shirt at some point in time). However, I'm not sure that USAF didn't tell CAP to have a unique shirt. How else can USAF people identify CAP personnel as non-USAF? Remember, it's going to be blouses off, so everyone is going to look the same. BDU pants, black boots, blue belts, black t-shirts. At least CAP shirts will allow for less confusion.

3. If billeting is free, why the $60 charge? I read 2 meals  per day will be provided by 305/514th Services Squadrons at the dining hall and that should be just a couple of dollars per meal.

4. I think HQ/USAF, the host and organizer of the event should eat all expenses associated with CAP volunteers, including fuel for transportation to/from/during event and all associated expenses. Why? They're getting free labor that they wouldn't get otherwise. Labor that's fairly organized and easy to deal with (I hope).
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: DOD_Tcom on June 01, 2008, 01:37:34 PM
The second result for a YAHOO search of McGuire AFB Air show leads to a message board of whiny CAPS???  Frankly, it was a sad enough display for this veteran and dept. of defense employee to register and point it out, just in case you were unaware.   

Certainly, complaining about investing resources and volunteering is an interesting approach to educating and welcoming the public sector, who are just trying to find information on the Air Show, and gripes about the $60 is a also a unique way of showing your appreciation and dedication to our all volunteer Armed Forces.  Maybe not the public relations tactic that I would use to demonstrate PRIDE in our Armed Forces, but that just alludes to the unwillingness of a CAP to help Team McGuire show the Public their capabilities and say Thank You for their support.  The Air Expo and Open House is the AF way of saying thank you to all the communities that support Team McGuire throughout the year. Anyone attending the event will enjoy FREE admission and FREE parking throughout the weekend.

FREE for the public, not for the thousands of Team McGuire personell who are "donating" their entire weekend to help provide this event to the public, not to mention the 1000s of hours spent preparing the base like the base beautification of the last 2 weeks. 

Trying to instill a sense of military pride in the community by displaying the might of the Air Force, and the capabilities of all it's dedicated volunteers, active duty or civilian...you're doing it wrong!

Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: mikeylikey on June 01, 2008, 03:23:26 PM
Quote from: DOD_Tcom on June 01, 2008, 01:37:34 PM
The second result for a YAHOO search of McGuire AFB Air show leads to a message board of whiny CAPS???  Frankly, it was a sad enough display for this veteran and dept. of defense employee to register and point it out, just in case you were unaware.   

Certainly, complaining about investing resources and volunteering is an interesting approach to educating and welcoming the public sector, who are just trying to find information on the Air Show, and gripes about the $60 is a also a unique way of showing your appreciation and dedication to our all volunteer Armed Forces.  Maybe not the public relations tactic that I would use to demonstrate PRIDE in our Armed Forces, but that just alludes to the unwillingness of a CAP to help Team McGuire show the Public their capabilities and say Thank You for their support.  The Air Expo and Open House is the AF way of saying thank you to all the communities that support Team McGuire throughout the year. Anyone attending the event will enjoy FREE admission and FREE parking throughout the weekend.

FREE for the public, not for the thousands of Team McGuire personell who are "donating" their entire weekend to help provide this event to the public, not to mention the 1000s of hours spent preparing the base like the base beautification of the last 2 weeks. 

Trying to instill a sense of military pride in the community by displaying the might of the Air Force, and the capabilities of all it's dedicated volunteers, active duty or civilian...you're doing it wrong!



I suggest you go back inside your little world inside your DOD Cubicle. 

First, manhours are being provided by Reserve and Guard Soldiers, Sailors and Airman.  They are getting paid for it, because they are doing the work during (and get this ) their drill weekend, while others are making up drill time they need to make up because they could not make it to regular drill.  The Active Duty Component is getting paid to do this work because (and get this too) they just rework their daily schedules and fit in Airshow duties in place of Office work. 

Wow, you speak of free admission and parking.  They have to offer free parking and admission, because face it.......no ONE would show up other wise. 

"Team McGuire" is only a small percentage of people supporting this show.  Security, billeting, and other functions are being handled by DIX. 

As far as we should throw 60 dollars toward the military and Airshow CORPORATION so we can get used (most likely worse than last year) is an insult.  We already pay to perform services for USAF and our communities.  Cleaning up trash at an Airshow is not an Air Force Mission for CAP.  Hell CAP did not even get a decent recruiting booth. 

We all have pride in the members of our Armed Forces, but we don't have to PAY CASH to prove it. 

Finally, we didn't create that site you surfed across.  If you want a website to look for airshow info, try the freaking airshow website hosted off the "team McGuire" website.

CAP is not a slave labor pool that can just be called upon to clean up trash, collect money for a mutli-million dollar airshow company, or perform any and all menial labor tasking. 

As far as cleaning up McGuire.....thats  along time coming.  The base is disgusting.  However, they do have civilian contractors for that type of daily work, and CAP should never ever be used for anything like that.

I suggest you use the search button above and see why so many people are upset with the 2007 McGuire Air Show.

OH ya.....this is only a small thing in the much larger Air Force Week in Philadelphia.  All of the Philly events are free to the public, and CAP is more than welcome to attend, no charge. 

Question......if your boss came to you and said "Mr DOD employee, to do your job from now on, you need to give the DOD $60.00 every other month.  Your 60 bucks would get you a distinctive shirt, access to bathrooms, and a donut in the morning".  Would you pay it??  How about if he said, it would be used to show your support for our soldier, but the money is going to milion dollar companies.     

Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: JayT on June 01, 2008, 03:29:18 PM
Quote from: DOD_Tcom on June 01, 2008, 01:37:34 PM
The second result for a YAHOO search of McGuire AFB Air show leads to a message board of whiny CAPS???  Frankly, it was a sad enough display for this veteran and dept. of defense employee to register and point it out, just in case you were unaware.   

Certainly, complaining about investing resources and volunteering is an interesting approach to educating and welcoming the public sector, who are just trying to find information on the Air Show, and gripes about the $60 is a also a unique way of showing your appreciation and dedication to our all volunteer Armed Forces.  Maybe not the public relations tactic that I would use to demonstrate PRIDE in our Armed Forces, but that just alludes to the unwillingness of a CAP to help Team McGuire show the Public their capabilities and say Thank You for their support.  The Air Expo and Open House is the AF way of saying thank you to all the communities that support Team McGuire throughout the year. Anyone attending the event will enjoy FREE admission and FREE parking throughout the weekend.

FREE for the public, not for the thousands of Team McGuire personell who are "donating" their entire weekend to help provide this event to the public, not to mention the 1000s of hours spent preparing the base like the base beautification of the last 2 weeks. 

Trying to instill a sense of military pride in the community by displaying the might of the Air Force, and the capabilities of all it's dedicated volunteers, active duty or civilian...you're doing it wrong!



Sir

Last year we had cadets, some as young as twelve years old, stuck out on locations for hours without relief or water.

We had cadets, some as young as twelve years old, have uniforms and gear stolen out of barracks.

We had cadets, some as young as twelve years old, not being fed, or being promised to attend certain activties which were later denied.

We had adult members who had to drive cadets from out of their area to health clincs and other locations with no maps, no directions, and minimal instruction.

We had cadets of both sexes billeted improberly.

Shall I go on?

Our people are volunteers. We're not Soldiers, or Airmen, DoD workers, or private contractors.
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: Cecil DP on June 01, 2008, 05:29:03 PM
Mr DOD_Tcom

We are all proud of all the men and women of all the services. Most of the veteran members of this board are past and present members of the military, both active duty and reserve. The comments you have taken umbridge to refer to the costs associated with attending a "free" event and the seeming lack of support from all associated with the event including our Wing (State) Headquarters in New Jersey. As stated by an earlier poster, most of the participants in the Air Show were in a pay status of some type. The CAP members not only weren't but were required to pay $60 for the privilege. If I as a reservist had drilled for those two days, I would have earned close to $1,000 for the weekend. (E-8x 4 drills). So if someone was earning up to 4/5 drills for the weekend, why not give some concern for those who are there without compensation, and not nickel and dime them to death.
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: DOD_Tcom on June 01, 2008, 06:14:19 PM
I read every post in this thread, and it sounds like there are many valid complaints for the event organizers.  Maybe the base commander should ultimately make sure the right people are organizing this event and that  procedures are in place so that considerations are given to the volunteers out in the sun. 

I don't dispute that you have valid issues that should be addressed in the chain of command.  I find it a litte sad that the average citizen, who is interested enough to look for information on the air show, finds this site as the 2nd result.  Not that it's the fault of anyone on this board, but I wanted to make you all aware of that.  It can inadvertently undermine the effort of the armed forces to identify with the citizens' interest, seek informed support, and deliver first-person accounts of capabilities. 

I never meant to call into question the efforts of the CAP.  I personally saw they had a large presence at last year's event. 

I don't think of an air show as a venue for entertainment, no matter how anyone want to market the event.  A flightline is not a place to have fun for any small child in the summer.  So, I can see how CAP personell would be upset when subjected to that enviroment without a good plan in place. 
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: DOD_Tcom on June 01, 2008, 07:25:18 PM
QuoteQuestion......if your boss came to you and said "Mr DOD employee, to do your job from now on, you need to give the DOD $60.00 every other month.  Your 60 bucks would get you a distinctive shirt, access to bathrooms, and a donut in the morning".  Would you pay it??  How about if he said, it would be used to show your support for our soldier, but the money is going to milion dollar companies.

I think I made it pretty clear I didn't think it was the fault of the message board.  I just wanted to point it out to the people using the board.  My boss has never come to me and said I have to pay $60.00 every other month for anything.  He never said I had to use my POV as a GOV either.  (But I do)  He never said I had to chip in for all of the retirement and PCS collections either.  (But I do)  He never said to stay after work late without pay.  (But I do) Actually, the Commander usually calls me late at least once a week to order me out of the office.   And no he never said I had to buy the squadron teeshirt either.  (But I own about 5 at $15.00 a pop)  Yes, they're black.

As for going back to my cubicle...don't have one.  I do have an office, but for the most part my office is out in the field.  Technically, I could work behind a desk all day, but that's not a good way to stay on top in the communications field.  The technology changes so fast that hands-on application and implementation is the best way to stay relevent and get things done. 

Tags - MIKE
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: Pylon on June 01, 2008, 10:41:13 PM
I appreciate your time in coming to the board to bring us an outside perspective, DOD_Tcom.  As you have mentioned, we have no control over the search engines and the manner in which they index results.  I also find it unfortunate that this thread would turn up in the top results for a search about the airshow - even worse, the second result on a major search engine.

Certainly, Civil Air Patrol members are not a bunch of complainers and whiners across the board.  However, we do use this discussion community to discuss issues, share perspectives, talk about organizational problems and toss around ideas for solutions.  Think of the discussion community here as a professional resource to help many CAP members "get it done" in each of their respective neck of the woods.  Most CAP units find they have to re-invent the wheel on many things and be self-supporting - thus, this board was created in the hopes that collaborative efforts and the sharing of experiences could help CAP members in other areas use the right resources, apply new ideas and get intel on activities to make the best decisions for their units.

Many of the CAP members who were at the activity last year, myself and the cadets in my squadron included, had a horrible experience.  I don't need to detail that again, as I think this thread already sufficiently shares those frustrations.  I would hope that this thread served as more of a warning to other CAP members who were considering to volunteer so that they would know how to better prepare if they were to attend, or to help them make the decision whether or not to attend.

Though I applaud your contributions to your job above and beyond what is asked, as you mentioned in your last post, remember that in the end you still get a pay check for your job.  None of us in CAP are paid one cent for the years of service we put in.  We actually pay annual dues, buy our own uniforms and personal gear, pay for our own transportation most of the time and pay for our own incidentals.  We are in CAP, however, because we do feel a call to be of some service to our communities and the Air Force.   We want to be able to support where possible.

But in some circumstances, when you take a look at the whole situation, our members can often get taken advantage of.  This year's McGuire Air Expo, at face value, appears to be one such situation.  I understand that the Air Force has budget constraints for activities like these.  But providing free billeting, food and some small material support is not a lot of expense for the returned value of hundreds of trained, professional volunteers working for free.

I think you're merely reading the comments of some of us who were frustrated with this one particular activity, so please don't extrapolate that to CAP members who feel ill will against the AF, DOD, McGuire AFB or our own command structure.  We wouldn't be in CAP, pay annual dues and buy our own supplies if we didn't want to serve in some useful capacity and if we didn't feel an affinity for the parent services with which we are affiliated.

Again, thank you for taking your time to register here, bring us an outside perspective on our comments and of course - remind us that our comments are always in the view of the general public.
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: CASH172 on June 02, 2008, 03:20:08 AM
OK, back from the airshow.  I know all of you are so dying to know what happened.  ;)  The show itself in an overall view was a good success.  The smaller contingent we had was able to provide a good amount of support to the AF.  There were some minor problems, but nothing at all compared to the scale of last year. 

Unfortunately, I arrived late Friday night, but from what I was told:  Everything went smoothly, everyone was fed, entertainment was quite entertaining ::), everyone had a bunk, and there was no chaos.  One of the things I really liked was putting as many members of a home squadron into the same flight.  This let people have at least one or more people that they knew.  Also, flights had the same rooms generally, except for different genders.  The only small issue I found was how there was a small lack of the appropriate sizes of T-shirts.  Some of the cadets didn't quite get T-shirts that fit them exactly.  It wasn't too bad an issue, but without a BDU blouse, people tend to notice a little easier. 

Attendence was nothing close to last year's.  All CAP personnel and JROTC personnel combined probably didn't exceed more than 250 at one moment. 

Saturday morning went quite smoothly as well.  Flights assembled quite quickly and everyone knew who their immediate superior was, so there was no mass confusion.   One little thing I didn't quite like was the behavior of the AFJROTC unit that had joined with us.  Their general behavior and conduct made me proud to be a CAP cadet and proud that I was with, in comparison, seemed like a superior organization.  The JROTC cadets all received the same T-shirts, which had CAP on it.  Without blouses, there was no way for the general public to distinguish between JROTC cadets and our own. 

Good news was that there were no Orange hats.  Even PAWG had regular BDU caps.  Also, props to Midway 6, I finally saw the Aux On/Aux Off patch in person.

Our CAP static display area was the most farthest away attraction from the main entrance.  We had the luxury of having a C-182T G1000, C-172P, and GA-8 with ARCHER on board.  Most of our cadets were assigned Program Sales or "Civil Engineering." (I didn't make the name)  Cadets in the BDU without blouse uniform did Civil Engineering.  Some cadets were instructed to wear blues in order to sell Programs.  Unfortunately, bad weather was rolling into the KWRI area.  Airshow planners were afraid a T-storm with Tornado Watches was gonna move in.  The decision was made at around 11ish, to pull in any aircraft that might not survive the storm.  All small aircraft, including the T-birds, F-15s, F-16s, Geico Skytypers, all rotary wing aircraft, and etc had to be tugged away into a hanger.  Our own aircraft had to be taxied into the hanger. 

Our CAP team was able to pull back to our rallying point with ease and some flights were asked to help the AF move civilians out of the airshow area and into their vehicles.  All airshow staff was confined into one of the C-17 hangers.  We were stuck inside while the storm passed for roughly 3 hours.  Inside, we WERE fed, and everyone got a meal.  When food ran out for some seniors, the situation was worked on and the meals came very shortly afterwards.  After about 3 hours inside, the airshow planners decided to cancel the rest of the activities for the day.  CAP personnel were moved back to the barracks on Ft. Dix. 

We had a little bit extra time to relax.  Everyone went to the DFAC to eat.  Cadets and seniors had leisure time.  Most cadets either hung out, played football, cards, etc.  Seniors did whatever seniors do when they're bored...  The rest of the night without major incident.  The Safety Team appointed this year did an excellent job of watching over and doing just one job, making sure safety was everywhere.  Also, cadets were given emergency notification data sheets to fill out and to carry with them at all times.  Cadets were also given quick reference guides with information such as contact info, lost procedures, medical issues, communication plans, and a map. 

Saturday morning went without major incident either.  The weather was beautiful, and a huge crowd was expected.  One thing that happened overnight was that the GA-8 was needed in PAWG somewhere to conduct a SAR mission.  So the aircraft left in the early morning with a crew.  The same general plan occurred.  Cadets in blues selling programs and cadets in BDUs without blouses doing "Civil Engineering." 

One thing that pop up was the word that someone in the AF wasn't authorizing cadets that were off-duty to wear uniforms in order to walk around and enjoy the show.  Later in the day, the base commander or some higher ranking officer tried assuring the project officer this order wasn't made by any of them.  I still don't know exactly what happened with that one. 

There were some minor medical issues, but nothing unexpected from a fairly sized airshow supporting event.  It was also nothing even close to last year.  The smaller staff did make rotations a little bit more tougher, but the bigger the staff, the more chaos that would just follow.  A line has to be cut somewhere in that method. 

The airshow itself went without major incident.  The exodus of CAP personnel from the ramp proved to be quite difficult.  We tried moving back to Ft. Dix almost immediately at the same time the general public was leaving.  Traffic in many places proved to be quite difficult.  We had to coordinate some vehicles to go with AF SF escorts to get through the road barriers set up to control traffic.  Also, the AF CoC seemed to be a little harder to work with.  Orders from one team would contradict orders from another, but that's on the AF side and not ours.  Other than the exodus away from the ramp, nothing else seemed to be in even small chaos. 

I have to give credit to the DFAC staff for willing to stay late in order to feed our members.  Although we did pay, I still find it great they were willing to do such a thing. 

Overall, I believe the airshow was a success.  No chaos ensued.  I wasn't able to get a bigger overall picture of the event because I was mostly confined to displaying the C-182T G-1000.  So it does mean I didn't get a bigger picture, which would've meant a better understanding of the shortfalls and successes.  The $60 did seem a little bit excessive, but sometimes it's just what has to happen.  Hopefully, next year a better deal can be worked out. 

Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: Pylon on June 02, 2008, 03:48:56 AM
For whom were you selling programs?  Did the CAP units involved profit any by contributing members to sell the programs?


I guess I still don't understand why hundreds CAP members would pay $60 to empty trash (I assume that's what largely your "CE" teams did) and sell programs at an airshow where admission is free.  I would think $60 is steep to house and feed me on a military installation for a weekend of training, where I'd be receiving valuable education and materials.  I'd think $60 would be steep to house and feed me on a military installation for a weekend to watch an airshow and learn AE-type stuff.   Perhaps you can help me: from your perspective, why did you pay $60 to go work? 
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: CASH172 on June 02, 2008, 03:54:54 AM
Quote from: Pylon on June 02, 2008, 03:48:56 AM
For whom were you selling programs?  Did the CAP units involved profit any by contributing members to sell the programs?.....Perhaps you can help me: from your perspective, why did you pay $60 to go work? 

The programs were being sold to the general public.  As far as I know, no profit sharing arrangements have been made.  Why did I pay $60?  From what happened last year, I wasn't going to just sit at home and say it's not my problem.  I felt I needed to be there to just be another reliable person to spot the problems and do whatever I can. 
Title: Re: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
Post by: afgeo4 on June 04, 2008, 04:08:19 PM
Sounds like many great lessons were learned about organizing a large, multi-unit activity. I'm VERY happy to hear that. Now if they can find a way to cut costs in half, I'll join them next year.

As far as $60... I'd rather pay $75 to work at an encampment for 10 days.