Can the Uniform Policy save the Credibility of the CAP?

[Civilian_Pilot]

C.P.,  it seems your remarks are not hitting the target.  

Oh, and thank you for your comments.    

Actually I am hitting target or everyone wouldn't be wound up like a hornet nest.

I would take it more as a recognition of your ignorance and willingness to provide you assistance from that perspective, so long as you're open to receiving it (thus far you are not). 

Several people have told you in several different ways that you are incorrect in your assumptions and even cited why, yet you continue forward with your strawman argument.  Interesting.

The correct me instead of playing games.


I've never had a problem telling someone I was wrong, sorry, misguided.

But the thing is, in this case I'm none of the above.  You want to play semantics.  I want to talk about the CAP.

[A.Member]

I have operated in most countries of the world so I know a little more about emergency , intercept, international operations than the average person or even pilot.

Enjoy.

Really?!  That would make for a wonderful second thread given that it's off-topic.  However, I would love to hear how flying in other countries provides you with more knowledge about "emergency , intercept, international operations than the average person or even pilot."

[A.Member]

I've never had a problem telling someone I was wrong, sorry, misguided.

But the thing is, in this case I'm none of the above.  You want to play semantics.  I want to talk about the CAP.

LOL!  If you say so.  And here ends the lesson.

[RiverAux]

I think someone has seriously confused what CAP members actually spend their time doing and what people on this board spend their time talking about.  There is almost no relationship.  

I can't recall ever having a substantive discussion about uniforms other than on this board.  Sure, our leaders spend more time on it at their annual meetings than it deserves, but those meetings only represent a tiny fraction of the time they spend working for the organization.  

No one is going to get any idea of what CAP members actually spend their real CAP time doing unless they become a member.  That doesn't mean that you can't make relevant comments on some issues, but it limits your ability to intelligently discuss many issues and apparently this is one of them.  

[Civilian_Pilot]

I have operated in most countries of the world so I know a little more about emergency , intercept, international operations than the average person or even pilot.

Enjoy.

Really?!  That would make for a wonderful second thread given that it's off-topic.  However, I'd love to hear how flying in other countries provides you with more knowledge about "emergency , intercept, international operations than the average person or even pilot."

I'll just put it to you this way, you're playing games, it comes across you're playing games, and it really is a put-off.

I fly into countries you can't.

As such there are many contingencies that are covered beforehand.  That's about all you need to know.

[Pumbaa]

Do we have to continue this diatribe?  Lock it!

[A.Member]

I fly into countries you can't.

As such there are many contingencies that are covered beforehand.  That's about all you need to know.

Reeaally?!  Try me.

[Civilian_Pilot]

Do we have to continue this diatribe?  Lock it!

You don't have to worry.  I overlook the diatribes.  I know there are some good people here that care about the CAP.

[Civilian_Pilot]

I fly into countries you can't.

As such there are many contingencies that are covered beforehand.  That's about all you need to know.

Reeaally?!  Try me.

Look, if you want to discuss that stuff, start a thread.

If I want to discuss within it I will.

This is a totally different topic.

[FW]

Civilian Pilot makes cogent and for the most part, well written points. While I disagree with his conclusions, that we aren't emphasizing Search and Rescue enough. I THINK WE ARE EMPHASIZING SAR. However, I think we've traded some of our "Get it done" Spirit... for "get it done in the right uniform." Boldness and resourcefulness, enterprise and intrepidity, have taken a backseat to correctness. To suggest that it hasn't... is to miss a good point. We're talking balance in a large and sometimes unwieldy organization. If the public thinks we are too doctrinaire about our uniforms, let's discuss the point as gentlemen.

I think if you can dish it out... you should be able to take too. As you know, I've been in many polite conversations with all of the regular members of this board and asked more than once that each point about craft in PA, or Search and Rescue followup stories, or heralded past glories, not be reduced to a conversation about CAPR 39-1. SO, let's take Civilian Pilot at his word and answer in a professional manner his complaints. It's good practice at defending CAP to the "Civilian Pilot" world. DO NOT LOCK unless this thread becomes abusive or juvenile. On we go BOLDLY.

Ed, the problem I have with C.P.'s comments are due to his conclusions reached by just reading the posts on CAP-TALK.  As good as we are, we don't give the whole picture.  We bring in specific biases, agendas and the like.  

I'm not one for bling or uniforms however, as a member, I wear what is required and, I wear it correctly.  I also spend countless hours each year volunteering as a mission pilot, cadet orientation pilot, Air Ops Branch Director, trash hauler, etc and spend even more countless hours training and keeping current.  And then, on top of that, spend even more hours doing my support mission for CAP.  And then after that, try to earn a living, take care of my family and have a life.  

I understand what Civilian Pilot is saying,  I just don't buy it.  I've been around too long, seen too much and, still love CAP, what we do and basically, how we do it.  What the membership decides to do with their time is their business.  My measure of success is by the continued requests we get to serve. the accomplishments of our cadets, and the overall satifaction of our members.  And, so far, I still like what I see.

[Jolt]

For a while there I saw some pretty healthy discussion.  Everyone was talking about the good things CAP does.

Regardless, I really don't think CAP focuses all that much on uniforms.  Sure we just had a new CAPM 39-1 and then ten ICLs got piled on top of it, but there have been many other changes since I've joined also.  Take for instance the slightly updated leadership manuals.  Additionally, you can see a lot of upcoming cadet program changes on the proving grounds part of the site.  We're also taking steps forward in ES.  We've started by requiring that all members wishing to participate in ES take and pass IS-100, something that virtually all other emergency services agencies require of their members (including police, fire, and EMS).  We've also added a "Best Practices" section to the national web site where members can share ideas.

The uniforms haven't actually changed all that much when you think about it.  What did we do?  I think we added a uniform, switched the location of one or two patches, and added grade insignia on both collars.  And all of that was from... one national commander?

[Smithsonia]

I can not speak for everyone and have only my personal experiences to share. I am in a squadron with some of the rarest humans on the planet. Men and women who've been extraordinary in their military careers and community service and now volunteer as CAP Officers. It seems they can't stop being of service to the country. Only death by natural causes at a very ripe age will stop them.

I've donated about 2500 hours of my time over last 8 months. I've passed 14 separate tests most having to do directly with emergency services and I've learned enough to be almost a Mission Observer, I'm taking comm classes this weekend, I've rediscovered much of the great history of the patrol which I've written about on other occasions, and I've helped with many cadet projects. I've done most of these things in a proper CAP uniform.

I try to conduct myself in a professional manner. I have the highest regards for those officers that take their time to instruct me in the ways, means, and duties of a CAP officer. I have nothing to apologize for except when I feel I have let these fine volunteers down in any way. It is a privilege to serve among people of this character. I am honored. I let them know.

I've been out on one SAREX and a couple of routine ELTs. I've saved nobody's life. I've done nothing exceptional BUT I know people that have done exceptional things, many times. I don't know if I will ever be called upon to pit myself against a life or death struggle in service to my fellow citizens.  All I know is that these struggles persist through time and are daily occurrences. I am getting ready as fast as I can and as best as I am able. I wear the uniform not because I think I've earned the right to do so... but it has been a duty given to me so that I may grow into it. I am trying to do that one as best I can too.

[A.Member]

I fly into countries you can't.

As such there are many contingencies that are covered beforehand.  That's about all you need to know.

Reeaally?!  Try me.

Look, if you want to discuss that stuff, start a thread.

If I want to discuss within it I will.

This is a totally different topic.

Done.

[Rotorhead]

Civilian_Pilot......What's it to you?  Who are you?  Why do you care about CAP at all?  If you really have a problem with how the three missions of CAP are carried out....you can always join and take a swing at fixing them.

And for the record....my name is Patrick Harris....Capt Harris....MSgt Harris....Sgt Harris.....Pat.....even Lord Monar.....Commander Patrick is an unacceptable way to address me.

As for your challenge........let me tell you about what I and most of the people I know in CAP do on a day to day basis.  We train for ES missions, we work with the cadet program and we work with the Aerospace Education Program.  

In our ample spare time....we get on line and grouse about uniforms....stupid HQ Tricks.....stupid Cadet Tricks.....Monster Trucks.....Who is better Pirates or Ninjas and thousand other topics of no real import.

Those who want to make a difference are out there doing it every day.....and if you man enough....I invite you to step up to the plate and put your actions where your posts are.

Feel free to discuss...

I've stated it here before, but here it is again:

Nothing but a Civilian Pilot with the following.

--B.S. Aerospace Engineering

--MEL Airline Transport Pilot

--SEL Commercial/Instrument

--F/E Turbojet

--Type Ratings:  SA-227 B-737 B-727 MD-11

--CFI CFII MEI

I have operated in most countries of the world so I know a little more about emergency , intercept, international operations than the average person or even pilot.

Enjoy.

Good flying resume, but I don't see much that explains how you're more qualified than anyone else here to discuss CAP and its ES, AE or Cadet Programs.

Your list doesn't explain why I should buy your argument no this particular thread.

[Civilian_Pilot]

I've never claimed to be "more qualified".

What I stated is this, and it is true:  ".....so I know a little more about emergency , intercept, international operations than the average person or even pilot."

There is a big difference.

Tags - MIKE

[JohnKachenmeister]

Really?? Did it matter more than the intended role for CAP??

Was the uniform more important than Search and Rescue??

That's the real question. 

And just so you know Bill, you may have been a pre-teen but there are many pictures of the CAP in WWII operating without any type uniform.

Actually the uniform did matter.  It mattered if the pilots were shot down, it mattered if they were captured, and it mattered to the Army.  The uniform mattered more back then unlike today.  

Also if CAP flight crews flew in anything but a CAP uniform that was wrong, and against standing regulations of the period.    

OK Mikey I don't deal with hysterics,  so I've just got to ask--who was shooting at the CAP and capturing them?

Was one single member of CAP captured during WWII?

I know there were a few Submarine encounters.  I am talking about an actual capture.

OK.  I can't stand this ignorance anymore.

Read the Geneva Conventions, Protocols on Prisoners of War and Other Captives. 

I have.  I am not a "Military wannabe" like you talk about.  More accurately, I'm a military usta-be. 

When you have read the Protocols, and have read some history on how the Germans treated "Partisans," you will understand why correct unifrom appearance was important then.

And you will quit making ignorant comments.

[Civilian_Pilot]

Really?? Did it matter more than the intended role for CAP??

Was the uniform more important than Search and Rescue??

That's the real question. 

And just so you know Bill, you may have been a pre-teen but there are many pictures of the CAP in WWII operating without any type uniform.

Actually the uniform did matter.  It mattered if the pilots were shot down, it mattered if they were captured, and it mattered to the Army.  The uniform mattered more back then unlike today.  

Also if CAP flight crews flew in anything but a CAP uniform that was wrong, and against standing regulations of the period.    

OK Mikey I don't deal with hysterics,  so I've just got to ask--who was shooting at the CAP and capturing them?

Was one single member of CAP captured during WWII?

I know there were a few Submarine encounters.  I am talking about an actual capture.

OK.  I can't stand this ignorance anymore.

Read the Geneva Conventions, Protocols on Prisoners of War and Other Captives. 

I have.  I am not a "Military wannabe" like you talk about.  More accurately, I'm a military usta-be. 

When you have read the Protocols, and have read some history on how the Germans treated "Partisans," you will understand why correct unifrom appearance was important then.

And you will quit making ignorant comments.

I guess that means none....

And I never said the CAP uniform has anything to do with "military-wanna-be"

[Hawk200]

Wow, what a nutjob. (Was the bold in green easier on the eyes? Just wondering.) This one posts the very answers he claims to seek, and then denies the fact. This one is about as loopy as the one that thought we should wear Boy Scout uniforms.

The Air Force demands that a uniform be worn properly in the performance of one's duties. It's not really asking for much for CAP personnel to do the same thing. Looking competent can be just as important as being competent. Rag bags rarely get jobs.

Used to deliver pizza, and we were required to wear a proper uniform and shave. Show up without shaving the first time, and you get sent home to shave and come back. The second time, you got written up, and sent home to shave and come back. Third time was a week off without pay. Fourth time, you may as well drop off all the uniform pieces that you have, and wait til Monday for your last paycheck.

That was a pizza place. We consistently made more deliveries than any other such store in our area. People remarked that the employees looked sharper, and tended to have better manners than anyplace else. The requirement for a proper uniform is no longer uniquely military.

It's not too much to ask for people to wear uniforms properly, regardless of who's uniform they're wearing. It's a little integrity test. If someone is wearing it wrong out of complete ignorance, then the integrity of whomever witnesses it is tested. They pass by correcting the behaviour. For willful violation, it's the failure of an individual who doesn't really consider any rule as worth following. Most people I know won't trust you to do anything if you look like a dirtbag (then again, most of the people I know are present or former military).

Starting to wonder if this a cohort of "He who shall not be named" stirring up trouble. Is this the technique the USRC is going to use for recruiting?

[Smithsonia]

FOR CAP THREAD MEMBERS -- When I was in the Guard we were "Old guys in bad planes who couldn't keep up," when I was a boy scout we were "tan Cub-Scouts" when cops are called "heavy badged thugs" Or "criminal minds in uniform." OR volunteer firemen are called "Wannabees with a hose." They usually don't rise to the bait. I was hoping we could remain civil even when those around can't.

I went to tear gas training a few weeks ago. I think we had less choking and whining than on this thread. Come on people. Keep your dignity.

For Civilian Pilot -- We got the uniforms before we got the SAR Portfolio. (SEE FLYING MINUTEMEN) We were guarding bases, running shuttle services and lunch counters at Civilian Airports with lot's of military coming through. We got the uniforms first as a symbol of military authority and trust.

Our uniform is worn by active military, while on CAP duty too. I flew with a CAP pilot on military active duty just yesterday. He's going to Iraq in a few weeks. I don't think he shares your point of view. Neither do the police officer, who flies for both the police and CAP, in my squadron, the 2 active duty military non-pilots -- one of which is headed to Afghanistan, or the 3 or 4 other CAP officers in the guard and Air Reserve from my squadron. In this case, I'm not speaking for them but reflecting the fact that they all wear CAP uniforms, without debate, concern, ridicule, trepidation.

[RiverAux]

I'm not sure if you can call someone a troll without actually violating the forum rules, so I'm not going to do that....