Can the Uniform Policy save the Credibility of the CAP?

Started by Civilian_Pilot, August 05, 2008, 05:09:48 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

lordmonar

Old news.

As far as credibility goes....problem identified and corrected...no hit to credibility.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Civilian_Pilot

#21
I'll answer the question since no one seems capable.

Your uniforms, uniform policy, etc... do not do a thing for the reputation of CAP.

Your actions do.

It's a shame because uniforms are much easier to regulate, administrate, delegate. 

It's a lot harder to be good at Search and Rescue.

You know, I was reading a thread here about how CAP won't let members use four-wheelers, 15 passenger vans, mopeds, Jeeps, etc.. in Search and Rescue Ops. because they are considered to dangerous...

Well, carry on boys.  Your uniforms are about all you've got.

And to the real founders of CAP, I shed a belated tear for you and your organization.

lordmonar

How can we focus on the missions and less on uniforms....well one way is to not post on the internet.  ;D

Like you said...there are lots of people out there (the majority even?) who do their jobs in a competant manner.  They may or may not wear their uniforms properly...they may or may not have hard core exagerated military manner.

If you think we post too much about uniforms...don't add to the problem.  Post about the mission.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

A.Member

#23
Quote from: Civilian_Pilot on August 05, 2008, 07:06:10 PM
But the point of this is supposed to be How can the CAP direct itself fully into the Search and Rescue Mission while making less of issues like Uniform Policies?
This represents a fundamental lack of understanding about the organization on your part.  To reiterate, CAP has 3 missions.  SAR only makes up one portion of one of those 3 missions.  And again, none of these are mutually exclusive.  

Our strive towards excellence is a journey, not a destination, and it applies to all aspects of our organization.  The day that changes will be the day we really have an issue.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

jimmydeanno

Quote from: Civilian_Pilot on August 05, 2008, 05:09:48 PM
...The First Generation of CAP cared less about uniforms and more about how to get the job done.  How dare you use their good deeds to justify what the organization has become?

CP, while there are some who are in CAP for all the wrong reasons, most are for the right reasons.  Those that are in CAP for the right reasons want the best for our organization which includes the public image.  The public image comes in two parts, the service reputation (the good deeds we do to this day) and how we physically look. 

Those who want both sides to be the best they can will care if someone isn't doing something the way that it is "supposed to be done."  Uniform wearing becomes a whole lot less of an issue when people actually do it.  It isn't about having a holier than thou attitude, it's about wanting to present the best possible image of the organization that we care about.

But historically, uniforms HAVE been an important part of the culture -even back to the first generation of CAPers.

I reference a document from 18 April, 1949:
Quote
HEADQUARTERS
NEW HAMPSHIRE WING, CIVIL AIR PATROL
Box 92, Laconia, New Hampshire


18 April 1949


SUBJECT: Neglect of Official Duties

TO: Raymond C. Whitcher, Captain
       CAP 1-2-541
       Portsmouth Squadron, CAP

       1. During the investigation of an aircraft accident which occurred at Conway Valley Airport, Conway, New Hampshire, 30 March 1949, causing damages to USAF L-4 #42-15192, while operated by personnel of your Unit, the following violations of existing regulations were noted:

             a: Pilot was not wearing official CAP uniform. (Reference Paragraph 2c, CAP Reg. 60-1).

             b: CAP Form 3, Flight Release, was not witness as required.

      2. In view of the fact that you, personally, as squadron commander, signed CAP Form 3, authorizing the flight in L-4 #42-15192 on 30 March 1949, without requiring the pilot to wear proper uniform and without proper completion of CAP Form 3, the undersigned is of the opinion that you were most negligent in the performance of your official duties.

      3. You are hereby officially reprimanded for neglect of official duties.

      4. A copy of this letter will be placed in, and become a permanent part of, your official 201 file.

      5. It is directed that you acknowledge receipt of this letter by indorsement [sic] hereon.


GEORGE G. WILSON
Lt. Col., CAP
Commanding

I think if you truly look at our history, you'll find that our organization faces the same difficulties and challenges today as it did then.

1) Uniform issues
2) Flying Club mentality (Squadrons were set up as actual flying clubs post WWII)
3) Retention issues
4) Uniform supplier issues

etc, etc.

I think you'll find that uniform issues tend to be the ones that come to the forefront because it is something that affects everyone in our organization.  It also affects people's bank accounts universally, which makes people get more audible.

Missions fly everday, peoples lives get saved every day, CD missions are flown every day.  The uniform isn't stopping any of it from getting done - the only stipulation is that you wear one [correctly].  Is that really an "issue?"

Also remember that CapTalk is not a good cross section of the general attitudes and opinions in our organization

Tags - MIKE
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Larry Mangum

It is very apparent that you have never been involved in a search or relief mission.  Go ask the people of the Chehalis Valley how they feel about the CAP Members who delivered food to them. Go visit the people who experienced the wrath of the Katrina and had CAP deliver food and water to them. Go speak to the pilot who has been found and recovered alive due to CAP looking for him.  I could go on and on about the good CAP does.  

Do we shoot ourselves in the foot sometimes? Sure, every organization does. We are an Organization of unpaid volunteers who give freely of our time and money to help others.  

You can stand there and attack us and belittle us, but the reality is that the majority of the members of this board truly care about the organization. Through these pages they are attempting to discuss issues that concern them or seeking help or guidance on how to deal with issues. Call it old fashion networking if you will.

Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
DCS, Operations
SWR-SWR-001

DNall

I really think this is a guy that drastically misunderstands CAP, and that causes him to see some things in a bad light. That's unfortunate. I'm sure many of us would be happy to have an open and honest educational conversation with people like that, but only if they're open minded.

Of course there are bad aspects of CAP, just as there are in any other organization, regardless of pay. Again, that's unfortunate. Some of it is human nature that exists everywhere, and some of it is the legitimate failings of CAP or AF/Congress/etc. We all try to correct those problems to the extent we can, and would all like to do more.

Let me just do the quick version... CAP is not a search and rescue organization, period. let that sink in for a minute. Got it? CAP is in fact a civilian/volunteer paramilitary organization, sponsored by the US Air Force, that ALSO does SaR in addition to several other things of equal or greater importance, and does so under severe restrictions.

There is a clear dual personality in the org. There are people here for the work that don't care about who or what the org is. There are people here to get personal benefit through the work - usually cheap/free flight time - that don't care about the CAP that exists beyond their buddies. There are people that take it too far the other way & want to be more military than the military. There are a whole lot of people that are actively in the military as well as CAP, or who are retired from service.... it's a diverse group that we have here, and we do what we can to direct their energy into our org and our missions. That's not at all unlike the military, which is made up of people dedicated to the cause as well as those there doing time to get some benefits or for job training to use in the civilian world. That doesn't make those people any less a soldier.

In the end, I'm going to tell you there's a bunch of people out here in an org called CAP that spend a whole ton of their personal money for the privilege of serving you without any kind of pay or benefits so they can put their lives at significant risk for complete strangers, cause that's what the country needs us to do. If that's not good enough for you as a citizen - if you feel like our petty problems and whatever silly uniform squabble we're having this week is too high a cost for the country to pay for such people to give of themselves... if you really feel that way, then I probably have a few suggestions what you can do with your opinion.

Civilian_Pilot

Quote from: MIKE on August 05, 2008, 06:38:21 PM
Quote from: Civilian_Pilot on August 05, 2008, 06:36:14 PM
And just so you know Bill, you may have been a pre-teen but there are many pictures of the CAP in WWII operating without any type uniform.

Then they found out they could be shot as spies if captured.

F.A.O. Bill & Mike:

After the end of World War II CAP became the civilian auxiliary of the United States Air Force, and its incorporating charter declared that it would never again be involved in direct combat activities, but would be of a benevolent nature.

lordmonar

I just searched Civilian_Pilots post history......and it is a repeat of what happened last year.

Let's get a lock....and maybe a "thanks, but no thanks" for CP.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Civilian_Pilot

Quote from: lordmonar on August 05, 2008, 08:11:42 PM
I just searched Civilian_Pilots post history......and it is a repeat of what happened last year.

Let's get a lock....and maybe a "thanks, but no thanks" for CP.

Once again I have overstimulated the masses.

Pay attention to Commander Patrick, he doesn't want you talking to me.

A.Member

C_P, the real issue seems to be that you don't have an informed or coherent point. 

You're attempting to make an argument under what, at best, could be described as false pretense.  It's a strawman.  Yet, you don't seem to understand that.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

Civilian_Pilot

Quote from: A.Member on August 05, 2008, 08:22:53 PM
C_P, the real issue seems to be that you don't have an informed or coherent point. 

You're attempting to make an argument under what, at best, could be described as false pretense.  It's a strawman.  Yet, you don't seem to understand that.

Only to you my friend.

So here they are in bullet point:

1.  The CAP no longer treats the primary ideal as the core ideal (meaning search, rescue, disaster relief).

2.  There are many good CAP members surrounded by the members who are in the organization for the wrong reason.

3.  As such the CAP has had several questionable incidents in the last few years from top to bottom.

4.  There appears to be very little if any corrections being made to rectify these situations.

5.  Meanwhile the trend is to focus on uniforms and uniform code violations.

6.  Uniformity in the uniforms does not solve anything other than uniform code violations.

7.  The best leadership id LEADERSHIP.  Not some form of "code violation" police.

8.  I want the CAP to succeed, and to do so it needs someone to take charge, lead the way, and be what the Civil Air Patrol was set up to be.

Al Sayre

OK, so what are you doing to make it better in your squadron?
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

mikeylikey

I am the generator of the majority of "last post then topic gets locked" so here goes.

C_P..... have you visited www.af.mil ??

They are creating new uniforms while a the same time have issues that are so freaking insane it gets 4 stars FIRED.  They endanger the lives of citizens by flying nukes cross country, they outsource to construction of our equipment to companies owned and operated by foreign powers (some of which may at the moment not be friendly toward us), the list goes on.  CAP on the other hand is driving forward with changes that will make the organization stronger in the long run.  

You may be confused by the amount of talk here on uniform issues and what really is discussed by our leadership.  Trust me, uniforms take a back seat to almost every other issue in CAP.

I have go to say you really thought out what you were going to discuss to get us "worked up".  Good job.  

I say this piece of pork is done, lets lock it on up!!!!!!!!!!

OH AND I HATE WHEN PEOPLE USE BOLD, JUST TO BOLD
What's up monkeys?

Civilian_Pilot

Quote from: Al Sayre on August 05, 2008, 08:57:49 PM
OK, so what are you doing to make it better in your squadron?

Could you tell me what you are doing first?

mikeylikey

What's up monkeys?

A.Member

#36
Quote from: Civilian_Pilot on August 05, 2008, 08:45:08 PM
Quote from: A.Member on August 05, 2008, 08:22:53 PM
C_P, the real issue seems to be that you don't have an informed or coherent point. 

You're attempting to make an argument under what, at best, could be described as false pretense.  It's a strawman.  Yet, you don't seem to understand that.

Only to you my friend.

So here they are in bullet point:

1.  The CAP no longer treats the primary ideal as the core ideal (meaning search, rescue, disaster relief).

2.  There are many good CAP members surrounded by the members who are in the organization for the wrong reason.

3.  As such the CAP has had several questionable incidents in the last few years from top to bottom.

4.  There appears to be very little if any corrections being made to rectify these situations.

5.  Meanwhile the trend is to focus on uniforms and uniform code violations.

6.  Uniformity in the uniforms does not solve anything other than uniform code violations.

7.  The best leadership id LEADERSHIP.  Not some form of "code violation" police.

8.  I want the CAP to succeed, and to do so it needs someone to take charge, lead the way, and be what the Civil Air Patrol was set up to be.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't teach it to drink...

I'll help you out a bit.  Start with:   U.S. Code:  Title 36.    It defines CAP's purpose and responsibilites which you'll find are different from those you claim to know or think you know.  

After you've got that mastered, you can move on to other related Chapters as well as U.S. Code: Title 10.  This will provide you with a better standpoint from which you can then attempt to argue.

(btw:  those are numbered, not bulleted, but I understand nonetheless ;) )
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

A.Member

"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

Flying Pig

 I think you will find that the average CAP unit is nothing like what we see portrayed here on this site.  This site is about as accurate as a Presidential poll in regards to what the average cross section of the membership is or cares about or what we even remotely discuss at a meeting.

I think if you got into the program and got involved in what we do, Mission Pilot, ES, CD, the down and dirty, and understood the nuts and bolts of what we do, I think your take on the program may change.  CAP is a melting pot of literally just about every type of person out there.  But somehow, despite our faults, we manage to get the job done.  In the process we identify issues and problems, and even damage a few egos.  But when the next call comes, a Cessna 182 will take off somewhere and go look for it, and somewhere there will be an IC waiting by a radio to make sure they come back.

On the CD sorties I have flown, the courses I have gone to, I have met some very professional people who are in CAP for the same reasons I am.  From corporate pilots, Nuclear Engineers, School Teachers, and .....even a firefighter.  This site can get you fired up, but when you look at it, whether you agree with some of the posts or not, many of the conversations here take place between only a very few people who are spread out across the country many of whom have never met and probably never will.

CAP has had issues in the past that I have voiced, but I think when someone like me mentions them it carries a little more weight than an outsider.  I am a Sq. Commander, a Mission/CD Pilot, and I am involved heavily in the program.  I have, in essence, "picked up a rifle and stood a post."  

I would encourage you to locate a unit and get active on your vision for the program in your area.

MIKE

I dunno about you guys, but all I care about is uniforms and Cadet Programs.
Mike Johnston