November NEC Meeting - NCO Corps

[RiverAux]

Not at al.  They just mentioned allowing non-priors to become NCOs as an alternative, not a requirement.  If it is just an alternative route for senior members, that doesn't mean that the primary route will change at all.  The proposal is focused on NCOs only.  

I am with those who see no real purpose for having NCOs in CAP under our current system.  I think the very fact that there are very few of them now, despite having a lot of former NCOs in the organization, shows that most people eligible to become CAP NCOs agree.  

Now, if the study group they're talking about appointing comes up with something useful for NCOs to do, then maybe I'll change my mind.    

[JohnKachenmeister]

It just keeps coming back to the basic fact that "CAP rank is CAP rank."  That's fine, but we need to ditch the bars and oak leaves.

If our grade didn't look like the Real Military (TM), so many problems would just fade away.  Nobody would be sweating things like grade inversion, the "not ready for oak leaf majors," how we work with the AF when CAP officers interface with AF enlisted.

The problem is we're all about the bling.  There are too many CAP'ers who want to look like real officers and will bolt when we tried to take that away.  The NB crowd want their eagles (and stars, if they can get them) and won't move on anything like this.  The cries of "I _earned_ this!" will echo across the land.

In the end, it'll be "sit down, shut up, and pass the tofu oak leaves."

dd:

Your solution doesn't really address the root of the problem.  If you have people acting the role of officers, whether you call them majors or directors, who are not qualified to act in that capacity, you lose the credibility of your supported entity.  There are duties in CAP that can be handled by the guy with a GED who has never felt a need to improve himself.  But to make that guy a Lt Col. diminishes the credibility of the USAF retired major who just got just promoted.

Making the under-achievers enlisted, and having an enlisted professional develoment program through which they can be promoted makes sense if only to improve the image of our officer corps.

[LittleIronPilot]

I just do not get it....those that seem to want to do away with the rank and military structure because we are "volunteer" in nature.

Are the State Defense Forces Volunteer? How about the Coast Guard Aux? Yet they are way more stringent in their NCO/Officer ranks and understanding. Hell the SDF is Georgia requires you to go to their OCS course and be appointed as an officer! Again...100% volunteer, no paid people or contractual obligations, but stringent requirements.

Hell guys, the freaking Salvation Army has ranks!

We are a para-military organization that is also the official auxiliary of Mama Blue. Get over it and get on board with the ranks, and lets make them mean something.

Why is that so hard to grasp? If you do not like the military aspect, fine, there ARE volunteer SAR organizations that do not have rank or anything like that. Though you better stay away from the volunteer fire departments, they have rank too!

[Falshrmjgr]

I'm keeping an open mind on this issue.

I personally think this will be an avenue for volunteers who are valuable, but not up to the quality needed to wear military officer rank.

Yes, I'm sure I will be called an elitist, but I had to earn an officer commission, had to have a bachelor degree, and had to undergo an intense training program.  This was after achieving SSG rank in the Army.  Not everybody can do it, we lost more than half of our original OCS class between the first formation and graduation.  We lost one between the first formation and lunch.

That being said, I really find it odd that in CAP a guy with a GED who works as a fender-polisher at the Kwik-Kleen Kar Wash is a lieutenant if he can stay awake through a video on how to salute.

I see this as a way of improving the image of the CAP officer corps, if nothing else.  We can impose some higher standards, and we will still be able to accept Mr. Kwik-Kleen as an enlisted volunteer.

Ditto X2

[RiverAux]

Point of order -- the CG Aux does not have ranks.  Actually they use slightly military-style rank insignia, but use office titles to match the insignia.  

[DrJbdm]

The CG aux is a bad example.  SDFs are a much better example. they are VERY much like CAP, but have only a State mission. Where we have BOTH a Federal and a State mission. in Texas, an officer in the State Guard must have a bachelors degree and meet ALL of the ANG or Air Force standards to be an Officer except for the age restriction up to a point. However, just because you meet all of those standards does not mean you will enter as an Officer. unless you have been an officer in the military you will start out in most cases as an E-5 for at least a year till you can become eligible to apply for a slot in OCS. They also go thru almost the same exact OCS that the ANG goes thru. Because of those tougher standards they work very well with their ANG counter-parts. All of the officers; no matter if you are TXSG or ANG you have all meet the same standards for being an Officer in most cases.

  The State Guard is a very inclusive organization, they will take almost anyone who has a pulse as a member, they just restrict the Officer ranks to a much higher standard. Nothing wrong with that, it leads to much higher credibility. Thats something you can never have too much of.

   

[Falshrmjgr]

The problem is that the bulk of Senior Members (and CAP in General) don't fit in either the Enlisted or Officer Bucket.  And the real problem is that Mama Blue doesn't have Warrant Officers anymore.

Look, CAP should have a Three Track System, and the bulk of CAP members should be Warrant Officers.  Furthermore, since the Mama Blue doesn't have Warrants anymore, its as if CAP did do away with "Military Rank"


Look at it like this:

CAP Warrant Program (Emergency Services): This track is for SM who desire to accomplish the CAP ES Mission who do not have a desire to follow the command track. (No desire to command squadron's, etc.) and under 21 SM's who wish to follow the Command & Staff Path

CAP Officer Program (Competitive Category):  Staff & Command positions.   If you don't do the job of an officer (Lead/Command) you don't get assimilated.  After Command, if the Senior Member does not wish to continue on in the Command & Staff realm, they revert to their "permanent" WO rank.

CAP Officer Program (Specialist):  Legal, Medical, Finance, Chaplain.

Enlisted Program:  Basically Everyone Else.
Senior Member: Initial Rank (Unless qualified for anything else)
Senior Airman:  Completion of Level 1/4 Months TIS
Staff Sergeant:  1 Year TIG/TIS
Tech Sergeant:  4 Years TIG/ 5 Years TIS
Master Sergeant: 5 Years TIG/ 10 Years TIS

Supergrade NCO's Reserved for Group/Wing/National Staff Positions.

Look this is just off the top of my head, but the idea is that the vast bulk of Senior Members would end up in the WO Ranks, flying missions, running the day to day ES Job of CAP.

CAP Officers would be restricted to those actually doing "Officer-like" jobs of running the CAP Organization.

CAP Enlisted would be for those who find their "happy place" of doing a job that they like that isn't covered elsewhere.  There is no reason a really super ground team member who doesn't want to do anything else shouldn't be promoted.  Conversely, there is no reason to have a MAJ or LT COL who doesn't do anything else.

I realize this isn't flushed out, nor does it cover every situation.  But the basic premise is that a "CAP Commission" would be harder to get, based on pre-commissioning requirements, require a higher degree of commitment and sacrifice, and not continue unless you continued to contribute at that level.

[RiverAux]

And SDFs vary widely in how they approach that issue and it has changed over time.  Some SDFs are pretty restrictive about ranks while others do tend to hand them out like candy and are worse than CAP in that regard.  The trend is towards more restrictions.  

The fact is that CAP could probably operate equally well in any rank system you'd care to develop.  All are essentially meaingless so long as actual command and control is based upon administative position (squadron commander, etc.) or ES assignment (ground team leader, IC, etc.) and not on rank. 

[DrJbdm]

Falshrmjgr, Now it seems you are wanting a CG Aux type of system....."After Command, if the Senior Member does not wish to continue on in the Command & Staff realm, they revert to their "permanent" WO rank."  that doesn't make any sense.

I think under the same type of system you suggested I believe most members would fall under the enlisted side of the house with Flight Officers being technical specialists such as Pilots, Paramedics, paralegals and moral leadership officers.

Officers would be those who hold higher educational accomplishments and have been selected to be an Officer and have completed an OCS, not necessarily only for those who choose to command.

  You would end up with most members being enlisted, a few more who are Flight Officers based upon a technical skill/education and a few who are Officers.

  Of course none of this would ever come to pass, the best way and most likely way is to simply strengthen the requirements to be an officer and for those who can't meet the standards or choose not to be officers can serve in the enlisted side.

[Dragoon]

Replying to a bunch of related stuff.  First please understand I'm very pro military rank - but (and this is critical):

CAP doesn't actually have military rank.  We use military rank INSIGNIA and TITLES, but we neglect the all important aspects of RESPONSIBLITY and AUTHORITY

In the real military you don't get promoted because of schools and time in grade.  You get promoted because you're ready to take on more RESPONSIBLITY and AUTHORITY.

(there a couple of exceptions for folks like doctors, but percentage wise, they are not worth worrying about)


And once promoted, you don't have a choice about keeping your current job.  You move UP to higher responsibility and authority.  And you keep doing that until you leave the service.

In CAP, grade has no authority.  It has no responsibility. And it does not tie you to performing at a certain level of either. 

It's effectively just a title that says "this guy's been around a while and taken a little training."  And that ain't what military rank should be about.

So, with that long winded beginning...

Your solution doesn't really address the root of the problem.  If you have people acting the role of officers, whether you call them majors or directors, who are not qualified to act in that capacity, you lose the credibility of your supported entity.  There are duties in CAP that can be handled by the guy with a GED who has never felt a need to improve himself.  But to make that guy a Lt Col. diminishes the credibility of the USAF retired major who just got just promoted.

Making the under-achievers enlisted, and having an enlisted professional development program through which they can be promoted makes sense if only to improve the image of our officer corps.

John, I think you're linking rank to position in a way that CAP doesn't.  Right now, we have many CAP officers who aren't that credible.  But many of them are not in positions of authority.  They have grade - but beyond that they aren't "acting as officers."  Effectively, they don't need the grade because they are really acting as airmen!

What Dan is saying is that if there was no military grade, we'd only be worried about our "directors" acting like officers - we'd eliminate the need to worry about all the excess baggage "officers" who aren't in an position of authority (because no one in their right mind would give them one).  And while our leaders aren't always the standard we'd like, being selected for positions of authority is a much better "quality cut" than just taking SLS...

I just do not get it....those that seem to want to do away with the rank and military structure because we are "volunteer" in nature.

Are the State Defense Forces Volunteer? How about the Coast Guard Aux? Yet they are way more stringent in their NCO/Officer ranks and understanding. Hell the SDF is Georgia requires you to go to their OCS course and be appointed as an officer! Again...100% volunteer, no paid people or contractual obligations, but stringent requirements.

Hell guys, the freaking Salvation Army has ranks!

We are a para-military organization that is also the official auxiliary of Mama Blue. Get over it and get on board with the ranks, and lets make them mean something.

Why is that so hard to grasp? If you do not like the military aspect, fine, there ARE volunteer SAR organizations that do not have rank or anything like that. Though you better stay away from the volunteer fire departments, they have rank too!

While there are some who think CAP should do away with grade so that we are less military, there are also those of us who think that CAP is currently bastardizing military grade so badly that it doesn't help us run an effective organization.

In other words, we truly aren't very military to begin with.  And by pretending we are, we just cause more confusion.

The other organizations you mention tend to use rank a little bit better than we do.

The CG Aux requires you to serve in a position commensurate with the grade before you earn it.  And, last time I checked, because they aren't real officers, they don't get the titles (ensign, Lt Commander) etc.  Their title is their position title.  Plus, there is no saluting amongst auxilarists.  They seem to have embraced their "not completely military" status better than we have.

The Salvation Army limits officership to those members committing to full time paid service - and they fill the leadership roles.  You can't just be one by taking classes and being a squadron asst AE officer.

I can't speak for all SDFs, but those I've seen link rank to position.  You don't see an SDF Major hanging out in 2d squad, first platoon.

Basically we are misusing rank.  We've divorced it of almost any connection to the officer's responsibility and authority. And for lots of reasons, I'm not sure we can fix that

The problem is that the bulk of Senior Members (and CAP in General) don't fit in either the Enlisted or Officer Bucket.  And the real problem is that Mama Blue doesn't have Warrant Officers anymore.

Look, CAP should have a Three Track System, and the bulk of CAP members should be Warrant Officers.  Furthermore, since the Mama Blue doesn't have Warrants anymore, its as if CAP did do away with "Military Rank"

Falshrmjgr, I think you're on the right track, but to take it further, such a system has no need for EMs or NCOs.

By using Warrant/Flight Officers for the vast majority of our members, we can have a military style structure that is unique from USAF, based on training and experience rather than position, and keeps us from having a two caste (officer vs. em) system.  Everyone would be a CAP officer - with commissioned grade limited to those who need it for their job.

[JohnKachenmeister]

You got my point, Dragoon, sort of.

Yes, we have Lt Col's out there doing the work of airmen.  That, in some cases, is called "Being all they can be."

But such an arrangement diminishes the rank of Lt Col for everyone else.

("CAP... oh yeah, I met one of their colonels once.  A real dufus... lived in a trailer and worked at a car wash.")

By giving the people who are capable of airman's work airman's rank, and allow them to progress up through NCO rank with experience, we improve the credibility of the officer force.  Nobody would find it funny that an A1C worked in a car wash. 

This would be the case even if we totally abandoned military rank and went with a civilianized rank, unless you go with the USCG Aux where all of their ranks are too confusing to be understood.  (Vice-Commander of the Rear Subsector Flotilla). 

[Falshrmjgr]

Basically we are misusing rank.  We've divorced it of almost any connection to the officer's responsibility and authority. And for lots of reasons, I'm not sure we can fix that

BINGO.... my point is, how COULD it be fixed, not "Is it likely?"

Falshrmjgr, I think you're on the right track, but to take it further, such a system has no need for EMs or NCOs.

By using Warrant/Flight Officers for the vast majority of our members, we can have a military style structure that is unique from USAF, based on training and experience rather than position, and keeps us from having a two caste (officer vs. em) system.  Everyone would be a CAP officer - with commissioned grade limited to those who need it for their job.

I guess I should give some perspective on my point of view.  This is how I look at it:

We decided a long time ago that flying was a Gentleman's occupation, and the military got rid of "Flying Sergeants."  However, traditionally, an Officer's first job was to LEAD and COMMAND.  The problem is that their are plenty of officers who fly but do not lead or command anyone.   The Air Force came to terms with this, and accepts that officers will eventually lead when they get promoted.

The Army, I think chose a better path.  They compromised by having both flying officers and warrant officers.  Disconnecting the leading and the flying.  So here's where I stand:

Commanders at all levels should be officers, period.
Pilots who just want to fly, should be Warrant Officers.  If they could to the point where they are leading, commission them appropriately.

Specialists should be officers.  Doctors, Nurses and Physicians Assistants should be commissioned.  An EMT should be a Staff Sergeant, a Paramedic a Technical Sergeant.  Get the idea?

Ground Teams should be enlisted.  Is is fair?  Not really, but it mirrors the active military.  Does that preclude an officer from leading a Ground Team?  No, but that would be because he became an officer some other way.

What I would like to see is the distribution more reflective of the military.  It makes us more credible, and it eases working together.

Unfortunately, there are those who have not served in the military who don't understand the complexity of the relationships between the ranks.  Without this insight, it seems more disparate than it really is.

Example:  2LT's do not order around MSG's. They ask their advice.  Senior Warrant Officers have more power often than anyone except the MOST senior officers.

The bottom line is this.  When a gaggle of CAP officers walk into a room, military members have  case of cognitive dissonance.  The natural response is to figure that rank is meaningless and not credible.  Furthermore, CAP members become so desensitized to senior rank, that we seem undisciplined.

The standard for most things military is this:  Is it prejudicial to the good order, morale, and discipline of the unit?
I would argue that our current rank structure is exactly that.

[Falshrmjgr]

("CAP... oh yeah, I met one of their colonels once.  A real dufus... lived in a trailer and worked at a car wash.")

Of course that also describes a recently divorced National Guard LT Col....   

[DrJbdm]

Ok Falshrmjgr, I do see your point. you made some sense on that last post and I agree with alot of what you had to say, you are on the right path. I would however disagree with paramedics being only TSgt, a paramedic these days is highly trained in emergency medicine and in Texas they are licensed. I would give them warrant officer rank. an EMT is just fine at SSgt and an EMT-I could be a TSgt.

  I agree that CAP needs to have a better use of the rank/grade system. maybe we would become more palatable to the Air Force.

[RiverAux]

As always, arguing about the CAP rank system is a lot of fun but I have never seen one example of where our rank system is actually a real problem.  Might a different system make more logical sense?  Yes, but it would have absolutely 0 impact on anything we do.  The rank "issue" is one of those sorts of things that would cause more heartburn and confusion if you tried to "fix" it than it would to just let things alone. 

[ddelaney103]

So it seems people are postulating three "career tracks" in CAP:

Officers - for the above average, college educated high-speed types.

Flight Officers - for pilots not fitting into the "Officer" category

Enlisted - for those who would be "an embarrassment" as officers.

The big problem (besides the totally patronizing attitude towards enlisted) will be recruiting:

RECRUITER: "So, Senior Master D - would you be interested in joining CAP's enlisted corps?"

SMS D (who has 2 associate degrees, 1 bachelor degree and a graduate certificate) "You mean the "no degree, working in a car wash, living in a trailer, 'short bus special'" category?  Let me get back to you on that..."

You might be well on your way to setting up a chasm b/w officer and enlisted that even a Victorian-era British Army officer might consider "a little extreme."

[Dragoon]

Yup - no one wants to be on the "B Team"

Better to make everyone "Flight Officers."  It gives the ego boost of being an "officer" without REALLY being an officer.  The real military wouldn't care, as it's a CAP specific grade system.

And it avoids a caste system.  Without salary as an incentive, we need to be more needful of ego-fufillment.  Like it or not, it's a recruitment/retention tool.  Sometimes that non-college graduate does more for CAP than that non-mission pilot who never even does O rides.....

It allows members to have a visible recognition of seniority/training without worrying about authority.  If you've ever hung around Army flying warrants, you'll note that your grade isn't that much of a big deal - it's pretty a first name kinda culture.  Just like CAP.

Then, if we must, we using commissioned grade for key leaders and staff.  And we can be very picky about who gets it.  And what they have to do to keep it.  And then that grade could be a real symbol of authority and responsibility.  As it should be.

[Dragoon]

As always, arguing about the CAP rank system is a lot of fun but I have never seen one example of where our rank system is actually a real problem.  Might a different system make more logical sense?  Yes, but it would have absolutely 0 impact on anything we do.  The rank "issue" is one of those sorts of things that would cause more heartburn and confusion if you tried to "fix" it than it would to just let things alone. 

There is an advantage to a functioning rank structure.  It makes it clear who is responsible for ensuring things are done correctly, safely and within regs whenever two or more units gather without a clearly appointed leader.  This happens a lot in CAP.

Without a functioning rank structure, it's often unclear who has the authority to make decisions, and who will be held responsible if things aren't done correctly.  I've seen this at air shows, two ground teams working together in the field, multi-squadron activities, etc. etc.  The result is confusion, sometimes arguments, and potentially unsafe or unsat operations.

That said, a non-functioning rank system (like we've got) can actually adversely affect recruiting. I've lost a few Real Military guys who were rather turned off at our (and I quote) "Micky Mouse" rank system where you turn in your boxtops and make Lt Colonel.

[CAP_truth]

For those members who were not around when CAP had enlisted grades. They were removed by the Air Force after the Sr. NCOs complained that CAP unit commanders were making Master Sergeants out of 18 year old members. Those members were going to encampments on base and entering the Sr. NCO clubs. If we want to have and enlisted membership we need to put in place a program that the Air Force would respect and accept.

1. A separate membership for enlisted members like the General Aviation Member (GAM) we had in the past.

2. Change the star that is used inside the Air Force Enlisted rank to a triangle with 3 prop propeller.

3. A training program with time in grade and time in service for non prior military personell.

4. Any non prior military personell would only be allow to wear corporate uniforms no AF uniforms.

After this has been completed then we could upgrade our officer staff to a more professional level.

This is just my opinion.

[RiverAux]

No rank structure will make any difference in 95% of CAP situations so long as rank is not at all linked to an actual position of authority in CAP.  The only authority that matters, and will ever matter, in CAP is based on positional authority.  If we were all enlisted, we would still end up with situations where a GTL was lower ranking than a GTM he is supervising.  Due to the very nature of our organization, this will always be a factor unless you want to serverely limit our capabilities by always putting the highest ranking in charge of whatever activity is being done.