Vanguard CAP Sword (pictures)

[JC004]

At a wedding, under Air Force rules of ettiquette, the sword-bearers cannot be the ushers.  Don't know why, and I sure don't know anybody getting married who wants to spring for an arch of swords at $300 a pop, and in fact I have no idea why I posted this useless piece of trivia.

Useless trivia is more fun that uniform rants.   

[LtCol White]

I say we all get swords AND shields.

The shields can be round and blue with the triangle/prop device in the middle. Then we storm NHQ have a coup d'etat and seize power! 

[Major Lord]

I bet, after this thread, the sales of the CAP Sword will increase ten-fold.  Lots of people make fun overtly, but inside, they're looking at their check book to see if they can afford it.

The first time I see a CAP Officer carrying around a CAP sword, I'll turn in my 2A for retirement.

I have my AF Officer's sword. It's great for cake cutting at banquets and promotion ceremonies! It would make an excellent bludgeoning tool for zombies, Amway sales people, etc.

Major Lord

[JohnKachenmeister]

... And Captain America red white and blue leotards!

[LtCol White]

... And Captain America red white and blue leotards!

Do we have to also have a corporate leotard for those not meeting standards for the USAF one?

[JC004]

I say we all get swords AND shields.

The shields can be round and blue with the triangle/prop device in the middle. Then we storm NHQ have a coup d'etat and seize power! 

I'm in.

[Hawk200]

Traditionally, a sword represents combatant capability, which is why we don't carry them, nor is it used in CAP heraldry.

Citations please.

Have we already forgotton we have earned the sword? What about the sub-chasers of WW2? Pilots who have perished in support of the war effort? Getting shot at intentionally for the war effort (towing targets)? CAP was born out of combatant history.
c'mon people....really....

USPHS and NOAA have a sword; they're not even a part of DOD!

Citations for what? Even the Air Force doesn't have any history of carrying a sword in combat. They may be used for formal ceremonies, but there is no historical background of either CAP or the Air Force carrying them for combat use. The Army has a history of it (Calvary comes to mind), as does the Navy and the Marine Corps. By the time the Army Air Corps, the Air Force and the Civil Air Patrol came around, the sword was not a standard fighting mans weapon.

There is no historical background or heraldy that says "Swords were never used by CAP." And just because we've lost people in war time periods doesn't give us a history of combat. Subchasers may have made a couple of kills, but it was not normal operations for our organization. We do not have a combatant history. We have a history of civil defense (which is presently referred to as "Homeland Security").

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'll disagree with you on that one, Hawk.  CAP does have a battle history.  They went out looking for the Germans, and finding them, engaged them in battle.  That's a combat history if I ever heard one.

On the Pacific side, CAP was used to patrol for Balloon Bombs launched by the Japanese against the US.  This was not a killer mission, it was strictly defensive, but it still was CAP pilots flying in defense of the United States, and attempting to interdict an armed attack.

But I'm still not sending Vanguard $300 for a sword.

[LtCol White]

Traditionally, a sword represents combatant capability, which is why we don't carry them, nor is it used in CAP heraldry.

Citations please.

Have we already forgotton we have earned the sword? What about the sub-chasers of WW2? Pilots who have perished in support of the war effort? Getting shot at intentionally for the war effort (towing targets)? CAP was born out of combatant history.
c'mon people....really....

USPHS and NOAA have a sword; they're not even a part of DOD!

Citations for what? Even the Air Force doesn't have any history of carrying a sword in combat. They may be used for formal ceremonies, but there is no historical background of either CAP or the Air Force carrying them for combat use. The Army has a history of it (Calvary comes to mind), as does the Navy and the Marine Corps. By the time the Army Air Corps, the Air Force and the Civil Air Patrol came around, the sword was not a standard fighting mans weapon.

There is no historical background or heraldy that says "Swords were never used by CAP." And just because we've lost people in war time periods doesn't give us a history of combat. Subchasers may have made a couple of kills, but it was not normal operations for our organization. We do not have a combatant history. We have a history of civil defense (which is presently referred to as "Homeland Security").

The coastal patrols most certainly were normal operations for CAP

[Hawk200]

The coastal patrols most certainly were normal operations for CAP

You're right. But they were not combat operations. Coastal Patrol was a defense of our borders. Defended by civilians. Hence, Civil Defense.

CAP aircraft were not armed to looking for a sub to sink, it was in case they found one, and couldn't get appropriate support.

[LtCol White]

The coastal patrols most certainly were normal operations for CAP

You're right. But they were not combat operations. Coastal Patrol was a defense of our borders. Defended by civilians. Hence, Civil Defense.

CAP aircraft were not armed to looking for a sub to sink, it was in case they found one, and couldn't get appropriate support.

You really need to read up on your history. They WERE armed. Have you not seen the pics of the aircraft with bombs slung under them? How do you suppose they sunk the U boat if they weren't armed? Those missions do qualify as combat as well since nothing prevented the Germans from firing on the aircraft if they chose to do so.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The coastal patrols most certainly were normal operations for CAP

You're right. But they were not combat operations. Coastal Patrol was a defense of our borders. Defended by civilians. Hence, Civil Defense.

CAP aircraft were not armed to looking for a sub to sink, it was in case they found one, and couldn't get appropriate support.

CAP aircraft were NOT armed when we were under Civil Defense.  When we were transfered to the Army Air Corps, the CAP planes were armed with bombs or depth charges.  We went from being hunters to being killers.  We sunk two, but attacked 73.

[isuhawkeye]

wow you guys make me laugh some times. 

[Hawk200]

The coastal patrols most certainly were normal operations for CAP

You're right. But they were not combat operations. Coastal Patrol was a defense of our borders. Defended by civilians. Hence, Civil Defense.

CAP aircraft were not armed to looking for a sub to sink, it was in case they found one, and couldn't get appropriate support.

You really need to read up on your history. They WERE armed. Have you not seen the pics of the aircraft with bombs slung under them? How do you suppose they sunk the U boat if they weren't armed? Those missions do qualify as combat as well since nothing prevented the Germans from firing on the aircraft if they chose to do so.

You need to actually read the statement. I didn't say they weren't armed, I said they were not armed to go sink subs. What was meant was that they were not armed with the primary intention of going out to sink a sub. They flew with a bomb strapped underneath in the event that they could not get appropriate support to sink it. That's why it was called "coastal patrol". There are coastal patrols nowadays, but they aren't looking for subs.

The bombs were only added to CAP aircraft after subs were sighted, and support was not fast enough to get there. A petition was put forth to allow CAP aircraft to carry those bombs, and it was put into effect. The pilots themselves did not carry sidearms(at least not officially which is what matters), and certainly were not dropping bombs "under fire". The circumstances were most certainly not combat operations.

CAP personnel have not normally carried firearms or swords. The cirumstances do not justify Civil Air Patrol as an organization "earning" a sword as part of its heraldry. We have no official history of carrying a rifle or a sword as part of our normal operations.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Actually, there was no petition.  There were a couple of incidents, at least one off the Texas coast and one off Florida, where submarines were spotted, but armed forces support was not available.  When the incident off Florida took place, Hap Arnold was enraged, and ordered that CAP planes be armed.  In very short order, engineers working for the Army Air Corps had fashioned a series of bomb racks designed to be mounted on the various GA planes that were in use.  The smaller ones were armed with 100-pound bombs, and larger aircraft were armed with 250-pound depth charges pre-set for what was approximated to be periscope depth for a submarine.

To my knowledge (and I'll check this out tomorrow with one survivor of the Coastal Patrol that lives in Florida) there were no orders to use weapons as a last resort if other forces were not available.

There was a fast adaptation of the Air Corps uniform for the CAP guys, since the Geneva Convention would now consider the CAP folks to be combatant personnel. 

   

[MIKE]

Classic CAPTalk topic drift.

[JC004]

Classic CAPTalk topic drift.

Sort of...but it isn't a uniform discussion yet.

[Hawk200]

Actually, there was no petition.  There were a couple of incidents, at least one off the Texas coast and one off Florida, where submarines were spotted, but armed forces support was not available.  When the incident off Florida took place, Hap Arnold was enraged, and ordered that CAP planes be armed.  In very short order, engineers working for the Army Air Corps had fashioned a series of bomb racks designed to be mounted on the various GA planes that were in use.  The smaller ones were armed with 100-pound bombs, and larger aircraft were armed with 250-pound depth charges pre-set for what was approximated to be periscope depth for a submarine.

Been awhile since I read "Flying Minute Men". However, my original point that CAP is not an organization with a combat history stands. We never went into combat theaters with an intent to engage the enemy en-masse. There are no CAP soldiers or "battlefield" airman. Yes, we may have had aircrafted that dropped bombs in the past, and a sub may have fired on our planes with some small caliber weapon, but we did not engage in combat.

Soldiers, sailors, airman, and Marines have engaged in combat. Trying to say our organization has earned a name as having combat history is a lie. Both to the Services (who will know better and berate us for it), and to ourselves (which is the worst kind of lie). We can't re-define combat to our own ends, and expect any respect for it.

Besides, even if we did have a combat history, there would be no swords as part of it. Nobody in CAP has been armed with a sword as part of their operational duties (Honor Guards aren't "operational") Which makes Vanguard's expensive knick-knack a joke, and not a fitting item to even produce. It's not appropriate to our history, either way.

(Yeah, I could have thrown something in about uniforms, but decided not to.)

[JohnKachenmeister]

Well, the Air Force never carried swords in combat, either.

But, some dates are important:

March, 1942, unarmed coastal patrol under Civil Defense.

May 1942, Arnold orders arming of CAP planes.

April 29, 1943, CAP transfered to Army Air Forces, commenced armed patrols.

August 31, 1943,  CAP discontinues Coastal Patrol since the Germans withdrew from the coast, changing tactics to avoid land-based (little) aircraft.

Therefore, after 94 days of armed patrol, the Germans withdrew from the coast of the United States.  CAP made 57 attacks on enemy subs, sinking two, within those 94 days.  That is an attack against an enemy submarine every 1.64 days.

OK, I will grant you that we attacked an enemy force in groups of two or three aircrews at a time, and not en masse, but that was a function of the enemy's dispersal of its force.

Combat action every 1.64 days is a pretty aggressive tempo of operations in anybody's war. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Also, an attack every 1.64 days indicates that nobody was waiting for other forces before engaging.