Favorite Weapons

[Flying Pig]

You need to be very cautious about your role.  Are you a medic first, or an entry team member.  If they are serious, they need to send you to a Tactical Medic School.  That is a must.  

A few schools are.....
HSS International
CONTOMS
Medic Up

From the way you are portraying it, I would be a little concerned, nothing against you, but I would be concerned about a team that wants to load down an medic with weapons right out of the gate.  Have you ever been a  SWAT member before?  I dont mean military, I mean civilian police?  I was a Marine SRT member,  and they are totally different.  Not in their tactics, but in how those tactics are employed.

If you are new to TEMS (Tactical Emergency Medicine Service), I would stay away from the sub gun or any long gun for that mattter until you have a lot of experience under your belt.  I would even advise against you even making entry at all.  Medics generally stage at the entry point, or near the entry point.  They usually dont make entry as part of the team.   If they are offering you the opportunity to carry a pistol, then I would do that only.  It sounds to me like they are trying to find a way to get another entry team member who happens to be a medic.  I would be a little concerned if it were me about how fast they are pushing you.  That raises a red flag.  If you begin making entry, you are going to find yourself tied up in a situation where you cannot free yourself  in the event of them needing the medic ., ie. covering an open door, suspect, or pinned down in an engagement or worse, as the victim yourself.

As far as where you carry your weapon?  Everyone is giving their suggestions, however, it depends on what you are carring as far as medical equipment.  Again, a good school followed by realistic training will help you figure out where you pistol needs to go.  
Carrying a sub gun brings with it a lot of issues.  You need to have conitnuous training in weapons retention.  Also, your weapon, if you are treating a suspect, is now going to be in reach of your suspect, or unguarded on your back while you have your head down treating your patient.  I treated a suspect who had been shot in the neck during a Hostage Rescue.  While I was treating him, he sprang up and the fight was on, and my MP-5 was swinging around hitting everything in its path.  If youve never had a chest slung sub-gun crack you in the "equipment" stand by!  One difference though, is I was a SWAT member first, and an EMT second.  The real medics waiting outside the entry point until the all clear was given.
TEMS is a totally separate role in SWAT operations.  And it is often mis understood by medics with little of no experience in tactical operations, and is often GREATLY misunderstood by cops.

Your job as a medic is safety, and you can be an extremely effective tool in lowering liablity as well.  It sounds to me from your post that they themselves are not familiar with the role of TEMS on a tactical team.  When I taught the course, this was a huge deal.  But what I did see, was that agencies were the exact opposite of the one you are working with.  They were very cautious about arming their medics.

When it comes to your firearms, if they decide to fully outfit you with a sub gun and a pistol, guess what?  You are an entry team member.  You need to go to SWAT school.  If they dont send you to SWAT School..... DO NOT MAKE ENTRY AS PART OF THE TEAM!  YOU WILL GET YOURSELF SUED FOR MILLIONS IF SOMETHING HAPPENS!!!!!  AND YOU WILL LOSE!

SWAT entries are so fluid and dynamic, unless you have been trained, and continue training, your asking for trouble.

And you need to be afforded the opportunity to train with the team, whenever they train.  However, on top of their regular firearms and tactics training, you also need to train with local TEMS members and attend training related to that.  And stay away from the bean bag gun, thats not your responsibility.  Medics, if they are not careful can end up as pack mules.

Tactical medicine, if you have not been involved in it, is nothing even close to what you do on an ambulance.

As far as pistols go.  Wheel guns are thing of the past.  What ever frame you choose, it MUST have a tac light.  I carried a .45 cal Sig P-220.

Uniforms.  Mant TEMS medics tend to wear something completely differnent.  My team wore all black from head to toe.  Our medics wore blue with "MEDIC" on their back.  

You are in a position to do a lot of good for your team as a medic.  In the three shootings I have been one of the first things the crooks lawyer asked is how long did it take for my client to recieve medical aid.  That was the argument in the North Hollywood bank robbery.  The lawyers argued that medical aid wasnt given to tehir "client" in a timely manner.  Hence....LAPD lost the suit.

You have the opportunity to really run with this it sounds like.  You need to take the lead on restraining yourself, in turn protecting your team from putting you in a position they may not be aware of.  Take it slow, and you can really have a TON o' FUN.  But all it takes is one mess up to screw you and your team for life.
SWAT is a violent aspect of police work.  Lawyers parade photos of menacing cops in black terrorising people in their homes.  And nothing is greater than having your attorney stand up and say, "Mr. Smith, what is your role on the team?"  And the jury hears you say, "I am a medic."

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury....These cops care so much about people, they even bring their OWN medic to help the bad guy just in case he gets hurt."  

I carried sugar- free suckers and small stuffed animals in my pack to give to the suspects kids.  The kids loved it.  I would walk over to them, make sure you take off your helmet and your hood, and open my pack.  Then let them pick which one they wanted.  Because the kids DO know where daddy keeps his gun and his dope, and they'll tell you anything for a sucker!

Again, I dont know what your experience is, so that is what I would advise based on my training and experience.  

[DHollywood]

More on topic...

I carry a Glock 23 and I carry 24/7, except when I am in my CAP uniform.  I vault my weapon in my car at CAP functions.

I would prefer to carry a well made 1911, but when I consider the cost for a concealed carry weapon the G23 was a good blend of what i was looking for,

I drop no less than 200 rounds every month for P&P and I love my glock.  I dont carry condition 1 however because something inside me just doesn't trust the lack of a mechanical safety.

Besides, the fraction of a second it takes me to rack the slide once I clear leather gives me that final opportunity to consider what I may be about to do and there is no way the weapon can AD if there isn't a round chambered.

I carry 2 13 round mags and I keep my weapon in a Bianchi Carry-Lok holster with a positive lock.

[JohnKachenmeister]

More on topic...

I carry a Glock 23 and I carry 24/7, except when I am in my CAP uniform.  I vault my weapon in my car at CAP functions.

I would prefer to carry a well made 1911, but when I consider the cost for a concealed carry weapon the G23 was a good blend of what i was looking for,

I drop no less than 200 rounds every month for P&P and I love my glock.  I dont carry condition 1 however because something inside me just doesn't trust the lack of a mechanical safety.

Besides, the fraction of a second it takes me to rack the slide once I clear leather gives me that final opportunity to consider what I may be about to do and there is no way the weapon can AD if there isn't a round chambered.

I carry 2 13 round mags and I keep my weapon in a Bianchi Carry-Lok holster with a positive lock.

Doug:

How are you going to employ your weapon if:

1.  You get grabbed from behind, and one arm is immobilized by an attacker, or

2.  The perpetrator shoots first and immobilizes your arm with a hit, or

3.  You are attacked with a knife, and you use your weak arm for defense while you draw?

Talk to some folks who have been in gunfights.  I think most of them will tell you to keep one in the cooker.

[Flying Pig]

DHollywood.

Are you a law enforcement officer?  Ive never met a Law Enforcement officer who advocated not carrying a round in the chamber whether on or off duty. In fact, it goes against everything taught in modern police tactics.  I find it odd that you carry a weapon you dont "trust" completely in every way.

Simply, your going to carry a round in the chamber if your going to operate in a SWAT/LE  environment. There are no exceptions.  I cant think of any SWAT member who would want you on their team if you had that mindset.   In all three of my shootings there was time to chamber a round. Officer involved shootings involve muscle memory and gross motor skills.   If you try to draw, chamber your weapon and take a "fraction of a second" to consider what your about to do...you going to be dead, or your going to cause someone else or your partners, to die.  I guess I should add that I carried a .40 Glock 22 for several years on and off duty as well.

When you start your post with "More on topic" you are implying I went "off" topic.  The mans last post asked for the advice and opinions of those with that experience. I have been a TEMS Medic, have instructed TEMS, and carried an MP-5 while acting as a SWAT member and a TEMS Medic.  He made a statement that they are "pushing" him to carry a sub machine gun which to me is a concern.  In reading his post, and having worked in that environment for several years,  this was the oportunity to relate that there is much more to being a Tactical Medic than simply "should I" or "should I not" carry a particular weapon. 

[RogueLeader]

To be fair, this has gone to a more swat/le thread, the intention was you liked to have shoot, and that is not what I wanted.

[JohnKachenmeister]

To be fair, this has gone to a more swat/le thread, the intention was you liked to have shoot, and that is not what I wanted.

If we can disabuse somebody from unsafe practices with weapons, we are doing a service to other members.  Maybe saving their lives.

[RogueLeader]

Not having a round chambered is unsafe?   I also think that not trusting a non-mechanical safety is a good thing too.  It may not be for SWAT, but most here won't be SWAT.

[SARMedTech]

Not having a round chambered is unsafe?   I also think that not trusting a non-mechanical safety is a good thing too.  It may not be for SWAT, but most here won't be SWAT.

In the 15 years or so after my fathers department went semi-auto and before he retired, he carried his weapon with a round chambered and NO safety engaged. He also had excellent trigger and muzzle discipline. There is an argument to be made that if someone were to get his sidearm away from him, having a safety or not having a round racked would given him a moment to react....thats assuming that every thug who might take his sidearm DIDNT know how to operate a firearm. Fact is, (and a bit of a sad fact, actually) that alot of people could pick up a semiauto they found laying on the sidewalk and rack one into the chamber. Fact is, I have yet to meet a LEO who doesnt carry his duty weapon with a round chambered and any available safety OFF. Most of them have advised me that "yes, we have a safety function on our weapons...its called a holster." Ive also been trained myself that muzzle and trigger discipline are extraordinarily effective safeties. I also know thats why I carry an ASP, because in a struggle for my weapon, my gun hand gets locked on my weapon in a death grip and the other hand goes to my ASP. It has been my experience that someone sprayed with OC can keep struggling, and while a subject struck with an ASP can as well, getting thunked in the collar bone, shoulder or elbow (I tend to shy away from the skull as that swings toward deadly force on the continuum) with a steel rod tends to take the fight out of a person rather quickly.  Flame Away, gentlemen.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I was a policeman for 25 years, the last 11 of which I carried a 9mm semiauto.  Specifically, a Sig-Sauer P226.  Nice gun, except for no guts.  You needed multiple bullet hits to get a nitwit's attention.

NEVER would I carry a semi-auto without one round in the cooker. 

Yes, it is not safe.

Trying to rack one when your life is on the line is suicidal.

It takes too long, and is audible, so the perpetrator knows you are about to employ deadly force, and will shoot you first.

Please Aaron, if you are serious about defending yourself, reconsider your defensive posture.

[Flying Pig]

Rogue Leader....People can still feel free to post their choices of weapons. I didnt change the topic, I was responding to someone asking for advice from people who had done something.  Although, I will admit he did ask for a PM, I chose to post it here.


SAR Med.


If you are fighting to retain your gun, that is a deadly force encounter.  You dont hit them with your baton, while your fighting to retain your weapon, you pull out your knife that you should carry on your off side and stab them in the chest with it. 
Have you ever actually engaged someone with an ASP in real life?  Dont be fooled......I have put all my strength into ASP stikes on the street and had people not so much as flinch.  and I dont carry my pistol on SAFE....Ever.  The S&W TSW .45

Maybe I gave more than what SAR Meed asked for, but I stand by it.

[SARMedTech]

Rogue Leader....People can still feel free to post their choices of weapons. I didnt change the topic, I was responding to someone asking for advice from people who had done something.  Although, I will admit he did ask for a PM, I chose to post it here.


SAR Med.


If you are fighting to retain your gun, that is a deadly force encounter.  You dont hit them with your baton, while your fighting to retain your weapon, you pull out your knife that you should carry on your off side and stab them in the chest with it. 
Have you ever actually engaged someone with an ASP in real life?  Dont be fooled......I have put all my strength into ASP stikes on the street and had people not so much as flinch.  and I dont carry my pistol on SAFE....Ever.  The S&W TSW .45

Maybe I gave more than what SAR Meed asked for, but I stand by it.

Flying Pig-

I for one appreciate your answer to my question and appreciate your opinions about how I can best keep myself safe.

As for those that feel he hijacked the thread- unbunch your knickers and take a deep breath.

[JC004]

H&K USP in .45ACP.  I love mine.  If I needed a second weapon, I'll tip my hat to the Springfield XD suggestion.  Those are very nice also.

another excellent one...HK USP <3   

[Stonewall]

Sorry I haven't replied in like 24 hours, but I've been in FTO school all week which is a change from my usual night time schedule...

Excellent points made by Flying Pig, an obvious BTDT.  I've got lots of experience shooting, making room/building entries and as an EMT.  However, all on a different scale.  Sgt. Savage brought up an excellent point that I preach day in and day out.  It doesn't matter if you've got a 40mm MK19, if you can't get well aimed shots into your target, you may as well bring a knife to a gun fight.  As they say, aim small miss small.  I was taught, trained, re-trained, adjusted, re-adjusted and instructed by lots of "experts".  From plank owners to door kickers, and the number one thing I feel benefited me the most was starting at close distances and working my way out.

If you can't get a quarter-sized shot group at 10 feet, then how do you expect to get it at 20 feet?  Ranges are "perfect conditions" for shooting and are no substitute for realistic training, but you have to become absolutely comfortable with your weapon as well as make it second nature to acquire a good site picture.

If you expect to shoot under duress, which is what we should all plan for, then you need to practice that way.  Everything from putting "snapcaps" in with your live ammo to practice immediate action drills for a "down weapon" to shooting through windows.  And while your hearing is important, I always made my team do one AOP (Action On Principal) drill without hearing protection, so in real life, when the rounds start popping, we would know what to expect.

As for the safety and round in the chamber that someone mentioned, if you're carrying a firearm for protection or as part of your duties, you are only setting yourself up for failure (read: death).  I work with Navy MAs (Master at Arms), the Navy's version of MPs.  When they draw their weapons, I make them do a standard functions check prior to loading.  Just last week we got a new seaman in so I made her draw her weapon and engage "targets" as if she would in real life.  Guess what she didn't do?  She failed to switch off the safety.  She just came from 9 weeks of training and the very first time she drew her weapon she failed to kill her advesary.

When I carry my Beretta on duty, safety is off.  When off duty, I carry my Glock, which doesn't have a safety lever, but of course, I've got a round chambered and ready to kill.  I say kill, why, because you don't shoot to injure.  You shoot to kill.

[Trung Si Ma]

Nah, I'll go with a BAR, or a M-60.

You won't say that if you have to carry those heavy SOBs

[Stonewall]

Spent 6 months as a 60 gunner.  23 lbs plus combat load of at least 400 rounds at 7 lbs per box.  Thank God for AGs, Ammo Bearers and new guys to carry extra ammo. 

I like the 240B that replaced the M60 better though.

[Trung Si Ma]

Not having a round chambered is unsafe?   I also think that not trusting a non-mechanical safety is a good thing too.  It may not be for SWAT, but most here won't be SWAT.

I've carried firearms, long and short, almost everyday since 1973 and have yet to have one go off when I didn't want it to go off.  I was taught a long, long time ago that the one true safety device is the one between your ears.  

Talk to your testing officer, I think he has a copy of some of Jeff Coopers books and he would be glad to loan one of them to you.  Read and understand the four rules of gun handling.

My preferred carry gun is an HK USP Compact in .45 although I have been carrying an HK P7M8 lately and used to compete with the 1911.  Talk to your Squadron Commander about shooting M1911's - he was taught by a pretty good instructor back when he was a cadet.

[Trung Si Ma]

Spent 6 months as a 60 gunner.  23 lbs plus combat load of at least 400 rounds at 7 lbs per box.  Thank God for AGs, Ammo Bearers and new guys to carry extra ammo. 

I like the 240B that replaced the M60 better though.

I humped the pig for better than a year and never could find a comfortable way to carry it.  The 240B is after my time.

[Flying Pig]

I was a Heavy Maching Gunner in the Marines.....gott a love the 60.  The 240 was a great weapon, but a pain to carry.  Especially with the flex mount and the tri pod.  But nothing beats the Ma' Deuce.

[DHollywood]

No, I am not a LEO.  But I respect the hell out of the job you guys do.

I have competed in SWAT competitions as part of civilian tactical teams (read PMC) and have over 200 hours of Entry and Recovery training and IF I was doing that job yes I would be condition 1.  (That does not inclde the MOUT training in the Army... but thats nothing like civil LEO tactics.... you guys don't supress a hallway with a 240B...)


But I'm not and I don't. Fortunately I don't have to walk out the door every day in a job where I might have to shoot. 

The great thing about this Country is you can carry your way and I will carry my way.  I carefully considered my choices in how I carry and I wasn't advocating anyone to do anything, just telling you how I do it.  ( I do practice racking the slide as part of my drills so its in my muscle memory every bit as much as squeezing the trigger).

I'm just thankful to live in a State that allows such liberal CCW for its law abiding citizens.

[Skyray]

I pulled a couple of tours as a Marine Corps legal officer back when dinosaurs roamed the earth.  Even back then there was the philosophy that a weapon should have a round chambered and the safety off so it would be readily available in an emergency.

Every year I did one or two investigations on self inflicted gunshot wounds.