Idea: 2 Years of College for all CAP Officers

[Hawk200]

Why does everyone have to make such a big deal over saluting?  It is a courtesy and should be extended to the rank, not the organization.  And if saluted, return the darn thing, don't try to explain something to someone, especially when you don't have a clue about what you are talking about.  Having served, I can tell you that on some bases, there is a large contingent of foreign military.  Some of the foreign military enlisted uniforms look like field grade uniforms.  They get saluted by active duty all the time.  It's not a crime, it happens, the foreigners return the salute and everyone goes on without a big deal.  If you think you see an officer that outranks you, in any service, salute.  If someone salutes you, return the salute.  It's as simple as that.  It's a courtesy, it's a sign of respect, and it's a sign of brotherhood.  Quit embarrassing everyone because of your own feelings of inadequacy or ego.  IMHO, but worth every pennies worth.

I can tell you didn't read my entire post. I mentioned that I don't do it anymore. One, due to some of the reasons mentioned on this board. Two, because it just took a lot of time. Three, it was more professional to return it, properly and proudly.

Currently, I'm still serving. Initially, it was a little awkard, because, as an enlisted man, I wasn't used to it. It's no longer an issue.

[ZigZag911]

I was responding to DNall's comment about insignia recognition distance.

I agree that there is no need to make a big deal about saluting: extend the courtesy of saluting or responding when appropriate, and be done with it!

My concern was the CAP 'officers' who failed to return the USAF NCOs salute....the height of discourtesy, as far as I am concerned.

[DNall]

It was the USAF gentleman who mentioned 20-30 feet....I guess that's 'target identification' range in terms of saluting

The outside range maybe, that's still about the point you can choose to go around & avoid the whole deal. I think the grade slides are highly idenitifiable from that kind of distance, where the white shirt w/ blue slides is not (with any kind of glare at all).

The whole thing about saluting... oibviously we need to educate & reinforce with our members better, but that's not the point. The big deal is folks int he military are made to feel uncomfortable when they don't understand what they are seeing, and that's what would be better avoided, again with education.


Did someone wake up an old thread about mandatory education to come in CAP as an officer (versus creating enlisted ranks for them) so that we could talk about saluting & uniform differences?

[flyguy06]

I am a police Officer. Please quote me the law that says it is illegal to buy a military uniform and dress up and pretend you are a military officer? Now, obviously if you went to a secure area and tried to pass yourself off as a General, thats a crime but just going downtown wearing a uniform with General stars is not a crime.

[flyguy06]

I have served in mulit national forces twice and I have neverf seen a U.S. soldier salute a foreign officer. Your basic E1-E4 doesnt even know foreign rank (heck, they dont even know Naval rank) So no thats not gonna happen. I know some foregin rank, but I dont salute them. i am not required nor bound to. I took oath to obey the officers appointed over me. And thats what I do. I greet and say good morning, afternoon, or evening. But no i do not salute them

[shorning]

I know some foregin rank, but I dont salute them. i am not required nor bound to.

I sure you can cite a source for that?

[capchiro]

Once again, saluting is a courtesy and should be extended as such.  Having been assigned to a base with lots of field grade foreign officers from many nations, I can vouch that US active duty personnel do salute foreign officers.  What would you do if you were assigned to one of the United Nations endeavors and a German officer that outranked you was in command?  Would you salute him or not?

[capchiro]

In the last three minutes of retrospect, I must admit that although I have reported what I have seen on base, I am not sure if it was really proper regarding the saluting of foreign officers.  That also brings into question the propriety of saluting a foreign officer when you are assigned on a United Nations mission.  This issue is too important to base on hearsay or experience and needs some cite to the proper Air Force regulation.  Anybody got the reg?  Let's check it out and reach the definitive answer.  Thanks,

[RiverAux]

Federal law

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 33 > § 702
§ 702. Uniform of armed forces and Public Health Service

Whoever, in any place within the jurisdiction of the United States or in the Canal Zone, without authority, wears the uniform or a distinctive part thereof or anything similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of any of the armed forces of the United States, Public Health Service or any auxiliary of such, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

[capchiro]

Wow, does that mean that during deer season, everybody wearing camo or BDU's or Field jackets should be arrested???  Guy's like Kerry waering his field jacket and throwing his medals over the fence??  Fortunately not enforced, huh???

[DNall]

Wow, does that mean that during deer season, everybody wearing camo or BDU's or Field jackets should be arrested???  Guy's like Kerry waering his field jacket and throwing his medals over the fence??  Fortunately not enforced, huh???

Like anything, there is a practical time & place. Wearing a surplus BDU blouse while hunting is not the same thing as showing up at the base gate decked out as an officer & then trying to sign out a rack of M-4s.


You are required to render honors (salute) to superior officers of the US AND allied forces. You are very much required to salute NATO officers for instance. Not knowing the grade is not an excuse or defense.


Saluting is obviously a "courtesy" meant to express fealty. It is required, and failing to do so expresses that you are unwilling to follow orders issued by any officer appointed over you. Not returning a salute rendered implies you do not recognize the person initiating it as being good enough to follow you under any circumstances... I know this is exaggerating what's actually going on, but that's the technical & symbolic meaning of those actions, and that's why it's important.

[lordmonar]

I have served in mulit national forces twice and I have neverf seen a U.S. soldier salute a foreign officer. Your basic E1-E4 doesnt even know foreign rank (heck, they dont even know Naval rank) So no thats not gonna happen. I know some foregin rank, but I dont salute them. i am not required nor bound to. I took oath to obey the officers appointed over me. And thats what I do. I greet and say good morning, afternoon, or evening. But no i do not salute them

Well that's not a very good example.  You point out that even active duty members are trained properly.  Also as a leader you are setting a bad example and you are disobeying printed regulations where it says you will render honors to members of foreign friendly nations.

I too have served in multinational forces....and spend the last 19 years overseas.  I have and I encourage my subordinates to learn the various ranks of our partners and to render honors when appropriate.  You took an oath to obey the orders of the President and officers appointed over you.....one of those orders is to salute foreign officers.

[lordmonar]

In the last three minutes of retrospect, I must admit that although I have reported what I have seen on base, I am not sure if it was really proper regarding the saluting of foreign officers.  That also brings into question the propriety of saluting a foreign officer when you are assigned on a United Nations mission.  This issue is too important to base on hearsay or experience and needs some cite to the proper Air Force regulation.  Anybody got the reg?  Let's check it out and reach the definitive answer.  Thanks,

Here you go sir

3.6. Exchange of Salutes. The salute is a courteous exchange of greetings, with the junior member always saluting first. When returning or rendering an individual salute, the head and eyes are turned toward the Colors or person saluted. When in ranks, the position of attention is maintained unless otherwise directed. Members of the Armed Forces in uniform exchange salutes under the following conditions:
3.6.1. Outdoors, salutes are exchanged upon recognition between officers and warrant officers and between officers or warrant officers and cadets or enlisted members of the Armed Forces. Saluting outdoors means salutes are exchanged when the persons involved are outside of a building. For example, if a person is on a porch, a covered sidewalk, a bus stop, a covered or open entryway, or a reviewing stand, the salute will be exchanged with a person on the sidewalk outside of the structure or with a person approaching or in the same structure. This applies both on and off military installations.  The junior member should initiate the salute in time to allow the senior officer to return it. To prescribe an exact distance for all circumstances is not practical, but good judgment indicates when salutes should be exchanged. A superior carrying articles in both hands need not return the salute, but he or she should nod in return or verbally acknowledge the salute. If the junior member is carrying articles in both hands, verbal greetings should be exchanged. Also, use these procedures when greeting an officer of a friendly foreign nation.

Emphasis mine!

[mikeylikey]

Like anything, there is a practical time & place. Wearing a surplus BDU blouse while hunting is not the same thing as showing up at the base gate decked out as an officer & then trying to sign out a rack of M-4s.

Wow......reminds me of something I was involved with years ago.  As a Cadet I was at Encampment in PAWG......where an AF Major was the training Officer.  I had worked with this Major the previous three years.  He and I emailed, and he was my mentor.  He and a few CAP Officers would always go to Andrews AFB, pick up M16's various vehicles, food and training aids.  Well....half way through Encampment the FBI shows up, and arrests this AF Major.  A few weeks later we all read in the Newspaper that this AF Officer we thought was an AF Officer was in fact......NOT AN AIR FORCE OFFICER.  He had impersonated an AF Officer for at least 14 years.  He "promoted" himself, and took AF correspondence courses (remember that, it comes back later).  It turned out this guy was in AFROTC, but disenrolled because of some stuff he did while in College.  He decided to make fake MILID's, and "join" the AF Reserve.  He actually joined a Reserve unit in Maryland......and at one time was assigned to the SQD that took care of AF ONE. 

When he went to court......he pleaded guilty to MANY charges!  He was given leniency (this was before 9/11 REMEMBER), because the court said he did everything that was required of an Officer to promote etc. (Remember the correspondence courses from above).  He was sentenced to six months in Federal Prison and I do believe psychological help.

Needless to say.....The Air Force was embarrassed, as was the Army posts he drew the equipment and vehicles and weapons from.  There was a HUGE internal investigation in the PA National Guard because of this (he signed out lots of ammo from them.....and huge amounts were not accounted for afterwards).  PAWG has had to work very hard to get the PA National Guard to trust them.  It is still an issue.  Even more interesting is this guy was from Maryland......and Maryland Wing should have taken some of the shame, but they didn't.

[flyguy06]

I know some foregin rank, but I dont salute them. i am not required nor bound to.

I sure you can cite a source for that?

I sure can. My Commanding Officer.

[flyguy06]

I really dont like getting into discussions like this. Usually, I just sit back and read all the ill informed opinions but I have to say this. And I am not boasting either, but someone called my integrity into question and that cannot stand.

I have been in the U.S. Army for 18 years. Sven of those years have been as an officer. I am a "current" member of the Army. So I dont tell old war stories about Vietnam.

I am telling you all that it is not required to salute foreign officers. Most soldiers do not know officer ank so how they be expected to salute. I have been to two deployments overseas as part of a multinational force. Trust me on this one. I cant prove it, I just know what I experienced. Yes, youpay respect to all foregin allied military people, but saluting is not required. Again, you cant salute if you dont know the rank. Private Smith, the supply clerk doenst know an Italian General from a Croatian Sergeant. You guys have no idea about soldiers today. You may have been in the military 30 years ago and thats cool. But 30 years ago, you didnt wear ACU's or have M4A2's either. Things change.

I do not set a bad example for my soldiers. I pride myself on being a role model. When we got into country this last time in Iraq, we recived an in country brief from CFLCC(dont ask me what that satnds for,..Coalition Forces something) In this breifing we were told the SOP's of what we were and what we were not supposed to do. I remember distincly this issue. When passing a foreign alied officer of senior rank, you render thre greeting of the day and thats it. Again for the third time. Soldiers get a book on foregin rank, but 90% of them dont read it. They have more pressingissues like getting ready to perform their jobs.

You can continue this discussion but I am telling you what I know from what I see. Whewwwwww

[DNall]

Regulations say you do have to salute allied officers. That's the facts on paper regardless of commanding officers knowing the rules or not. The practical fact is no one knows the grade systems of other countries unless you're continuously stationed with them on a joint base. Most of the MNF time any of us ever see is in the field where there is almost no saluting. Yu still say sir to an Austrailian Col just like it was an American officer, and if placed in his ocmmand you follow orders.

[Flying Pig]

Im going to respond to the origional thread.....

Where do people come up with this stuff.  Mandated college for Senior Members??    Give me a break.  Let me know when CAP offers tuition assistance.....

I have 8 years in the military, 10 years as a law enforcement officer, a Private pilot rating in helicopters, gliders, and a Commercial-Instrument in airplanes.   I managed to do it all with 40 college units.  Im not seeing how an AA degree would change anything about me, except add more debt.

What would be the incentive?  I dont think the idea of being in CAP is going to motivate me to sacrafice what little personal time I have just for the honor of PAYING to be in CAP.

[DNall]

Im going to respond to the origional thread.....

Where do people come up with this stuff.  Mandated college for Senior Members??    Give me a break.  Let me know when CAP offers tuition assistance.....

I have 8 years in the military, 10 years as a law enforcement officer, a Private pilot rating in helicopters, gliders, and a Commercial-Instrument in airplanes.   I managed to do it all with 40 college units.  Im not seeing how an AA degree would change anything about me, except add more debt.

What would be the incentive?  I dont think the idea of being in CAP is going to motivate me to sacrafice what little personal time I have just for the honor of PAYING to be in CAP.

If you didn't see the discussion going on around the original thread at the time, then it may be confusing.

It involved restructuring CAP. Most of the work would be lifted off local units so they could focus ONLY on the missions (ES, CP, AE), with a few units gouped together using shared mgmt/staff. Members would come in as enlisted grades, they would be the ones in the field getting the job done. Then there would be an officer training program to move into mgmt. The officers would run the missions as IC staff, and that includes being fully capable of standing in for guard/res l& state/fed civilian emergency mgmt officials as part of massive joint ICS response. The officers would also be doing all the staff work & mgmt in support of local units. They would be something like 10-20% of adult membership on the outside.

The thread discussed the issue that IF CAP were to be restructured along lines simliar to that, THEN what should the min application requirements for officer tainign be, and specifically this thread discussed the validity of education & what level is sufficient to meet the standard. It's anticipated that said officer training would be very challenging acadmicially & challenging/stressful in general, and that of those competitively selected possiblly as much as 30% would fail the training. The education matched the requirement to enter NG OCS & was generally consdered as a gatekeeper of sorts to select (in combination with many other fctors) candidates most likely to be able to pass the training, and therefor not waste our or their time.

[shorning]

I know some foregin rank, but I dont salute them. i am not required nor bound to.

I sure you can cite a source for that?

I sure can. My Commanding Officer.

Well, it's good that you have faith in your CO, but they aren't exactly a source.  I'll ask another way.  Can you provide verifiable documentation?

I am telling you all that it is not required to salute foreign officers.

And you're wrong.  At least one source has shown otherwise.

...we recived an in country brief from CFLCC(dont ask me what that satnds for,..Coalition Forces something)...

You've been in the Army 18 years, seven of which as an officer, and you don't know what CFLCC stands for?  Amazing...