Opening prayer in CAP meetings?

[Eclipse]

Political correctness has about run it's course in this country and I predict we will see the tide turn shortly.

I predict you are incorrect.

If one would like to see where morality is without a God, one should watch the movie "Time Changers" to get an idea.  Morality didn't spring from the waters, it came from something bigger and better than each of us.  To try to have morality without admitting so is basically impossible.

While I have learned much from the collective works of Tarentino, Rodriquez, Landis, and even Hughs, I tend to try and base my personal beliefs regarding religion and morality on non-fiction works.  Also, there are many among the atheist and agnostic communities who argue quite convincingly that religion is simple a manifestation of man's inability to accept mortality and the "morality", at its core, is simple "do unto other or they will do unto you"(i.e. simple survival in a group dynamic), and without that basic survival skill, structured society, even on its most basic level, would not be possible.

I'm also guessing that this thread, while on the edge to start, is quickly slipping into a violation of the TOS.

[davedove]

Therefore, must the 15% scream tolerance of their non-beliefs while quieting the 85%??

Yes.  That's kinda the point of the constitution...

I don't agree with that.  The constitution is not about quieting anyone.  It's about letting all points of view be heard.

Now, as far a prayers in CAP, I don't think there is anything wrong with them, but members should have the opportunity to not participate.

[A.Member]

Part of the problem is, with the political correctness of our times, we deny the truth.  Truth is that almost all Christian religions request their members to spread the Truth.  Evangelize is a duty to many.  I have also read a poll noting that 85% of Americans consider themselves to be Christians..  Therefore, must the 15% scream tolerance of their non-beliefs while quieting the 85%??  Political correctness has about run it's course in this country and I predict we will see the tide turn shortly..  A well known Jew recently said that if it weren't for the tolerance of the Christians, there would be no Jews left anywhere.  Christianity's tolerance for others has been considered a weakness to some.  If one would like to see where morality is without a God, one should watch the movie "Time Changers" to get an idea.  Morality didn't spring from the waters, it came from something bigger and better than each of us.  To try to have morality without admitting so is basically impossible.  We just don't have it inside of us to reach that level without the faith in something larger..  JMHO, flame suit on.. man the guns and [darn] the torpedoes..         

Good grief.

As was said before... 

CAP is NOT church!   Do not confuse the two. 

[Eclipse]

Therefore, must the 15% scream tolerance of their non-beliefs while quieting the 85%??

Yes.  That's kinda the point of the constitution...

I don't agree with that.  The constitution is not about quieting anyone.  It's about letting all points of view be heard.

I think freedom from religion is as much a subtext of the 14th Amendment as of religion.

Though depending upon the jurisdiction, the courts have not always agreed with me on that.

[heliodoc]

Sweet Jesus Christo!!!

Now we are worried about prayer and invocation in CAP

All fine and dandy.  What are  the real missions of CAP? 

What are the missions of the Chaplain....non denominational morale and moral support to ALLLLL demoninations

Let it go ...go to church / prayer on your own

Prayer and religion ought to a personal thing.....not at a CAP meeting and maybe a little invocation at a SAREX or major events

If  CAP is receiving State and Federal funds....then religion is OUT...SUre Sure what ever CAP wants...pull the non profit or "corporate" card.
Again maybe this one for the Region and Wing kings to see how this is meted out

What are CAPTalkers saying if we are not religious in CAP, are we the sinners who do not "BELIEVE?"

Wow  CAP meeting are short enough already.....the Pledge of Allegiance will do fine, thank you to the "BELIEVERS!!!"

CAPTalk....where everything is on a  personal slippery slope and now religion and invocations can be stressed as part of already soup sandwich in CAP!!

Open prayer at church folks unless you got one of those TELEvangelists writing checks to CAP to buy equipment...there is already enough of those guys supporting 3 or 4 aircraft in their "places of worship."  Go find out for yourselves!!

[tdepp]

Hey, how about that recent ICL about the corporate dress uniform? (As the lawyer tries to change the topic to something slightly less incendiary.) 

[ßτε]

Today in the U.S. House of Representatives:

10:01 A.M. -
    Today's prayer was offered by Rev. Dr. Clyde Mighells, Lighthouse Reformed Church, Howard, Pennsylvania

I really don't see any reason not to open CAP meetings with a prayer if the U.S. House of Representatives opens their meetings with a prayer.

[jimmydeanno]

Today in the U.S. House of Representatives:

10:01 A.M. -
    Today's prayer was offered by Rev. Dr. Clyde Mighells, Lighthouse Reformed Church, Howard, Pennsylvania

I really don't see any reason not to open CAP meetings with a prayer if the U.S. House of Representatives opens their meetings with a prayer.

Probably because at 10:00 A.M. they called their lunch break 

[lordmonar]

Today in the U.S. House of Representatives:

10:01 A.M. -
    Today's prayer was offered by Rev. Dr. Clyde Mighells, Lighthouse Reformed Church, Howard, Pennsylvania

I really don't see any reason not to open CAP meetings with a prayer if the U.S. House of Representatives opens their meetings with a prayer.

Okay....as I said before.....I am an atheist.

I respect that the majority does not beleive what I do.

I respect everyone's right toe worship (or not) as they see fit.

I have seen lots of meetings and events start with prayers.

BUT.....(you all saw that but comming  )

Is it really right?

CAP is about serving our nation, state and community.  It is about getting the mission (CP, AE, ES) done.

Is it really violating anyone's relgion if we just did not do an opening prayer?

As I said before....I don't get rilled up about a little prayer before a meeting....but I do have a philosophical objection to injecting relgion into every aspect of life.

I don't like "Under God" in the pledge.
I don't like "In God we trust".
I don't like that congress and other parts of our government start buisness with a prayer.

I'm not going quit CAP over it.....but it is not really right.

Our society beleives in the idea of absolute personal freedom....(yes we don't have that...but it is the idea of it).

Asking someone not to inject religion into somewhere it does not need to be is not really violating anyones religious beleifs.

This is not poltical correctness...it is about respect.

As I said before....I don't really have any time for chaplains in CAP or AD for that matter.  I respect them for their beleifs and their caring for other people and their calling to their god.

But I don't really want to hear it.  I want to serve my unit. I want to mentor my cadets.  I want to train them and myself to be ready to answer the call when our community needs our services.

If I got to put up with a 5 minute prayer to get there...so be it....but I don't have to like it.

From a simple recruiting/retention issue.

We can't raise the price of anything with out someone yelling that it will affect our numbers.  We can't enforce "higher" standards with our someone yelling about how it will gut the squadrons.  We can't discuss uniforms with our someone saying "but how will that affect retention".

If we loose or never gain someone simply because they feel uncomfortable comming to our meetings due to prayers....we need to seriously look at that.

This is not just a CAP problem.

AD USAF has these problems too.

There......I did that whole thing with our calling anyone a fecal egress port or anything. 

[davidsinn]

Today in the U.S. House of Representatives:

10:01 A.M. -
    Today's prayer was offered by Rev. Dr. Clyde Mighells, Lighthouse Reformed Church, Howard, Pennsylvania

I really don't see any reason not to open CAP meetings with a prayer if the U.S. House of Representatives opens their meetings with a prayer.

Okay....as I said before.....I am an atheist.

I respect that the majority does not beleive what I do.

I respect everyone's right toe worship (or not) as they see fit.

I have seen lots of meetings and events start with prayers.

BUT.....(you all saw that but comming  )

Is it really right?

CAP is about serving our nation, state and community.  It is about getting the mission (CP, AE, ES) done.

Is it really violating anyone's relgion if we just did not do an opening prayer?

As I said before....I don't get rilled up about a little prayer before a meeting....but I do have a philosophical objection to injecting relgion into every aspect of life.

I don't like "Under God" in the pledge.
I don't like "In God we trust".
I don't like that congress and other parts of our government start buisness with a prayer.

I'm not going quit CAP over it.....but it is not really right.

Our society beleives in the idea of absolute personal freedom....(yes we don't have that...but it is the idea of it).

Asking someone not to inject religion into somewhere it does not need to be is not really violating anyones religious beleifs.

This is not poltical correctness...it is about respect.

As I said before....I don't really have any time for chaplains in CAP or AD for that matter.  I respect them for their beleifs and their caring for other people and their calling to their god.

But I don't really want to hear it.  I want to serve my unit. I want to mentor my cadets.  I want to train them and myself to be ready to answer the call when our community needs our services.

If I got to put up with a 5 minute prayer to get there...so be it....but I don't have to like it.

From a simple recruiting/retention issue.

We can't raise the price of anything with out someone yelling that it will affect our numbers.  We can't enforce "higher" standards with our someone yelling about how it will gut the squadrons.  We can't discuss uniforms with our someone saying "but how will that affect retention".

If we loose or never gain someone simply because they feel uncomfortable comming to our meetings due to prayers....we need to seriously look at that.

This is not just a CAP problem.

AD USAF has these problems too.

There......I did that whole thing with our calling anyone a fecal egress port or anything. 

That boys and girls was a well thought out and nicely stated post by one of those moral and upstanding heathen atheists I told ya'll about.  :clap:

[lordmonar]

That boys and girls was a well thought out and nicely stated post by one of those moral and upstanding heathen atheists I told ya'll about.  :clap:

Well....to be truthful....I was sitting down at the time! 

[AirAux]

I will offer that many units meet at Churches, so until the agnostics and atheists can afford to furnish our digs, we are kinda destined to dance with the one that brung us.  And believe it or not, I feel it is my duty as a Christian to at least allow the cadets to be introduced to God in some fashion.  And for you non-believers, don't get your panties in a wad, because it ain't hurting nothin since you don't believe in the first place.  The world survived for a long time with everyone believing it was flat..  So allow us our dalliances and may your God be there to comfort you when you need it..

[jimmydeanno]

...but I do have a philosophical objection to injecting religion into every aspect of life...

Just to point out, religion is a belief system that you are supposed to integrate into every aspect of your life.  Those beliefs to those who believe them don't change because they walked through a certain door.

If my religion says, "Thou shalt not steal" I'm supposed to integrate that philosophy into my whole life.

The question becomes are those that pray before a meeting somehow infringe on your rights by doing so or is your right to not pray infringing on their right to?

[JayT]

I will offer that many units meet at Churches, so until the agnostics and atheists can afford to furnish our digs, we are kinda destined to dance with the one that brung us.  And believe it or not, I feel it is my duty as a Christian to at least allow the cadets to be introduced to God in some fashion.  And for you non-believers, don't get your panties in a wad, because it ain't hurting nothin since you don't believe in the first place.  The world survived for a long time with everyone believing it was flat..  So allow us our dalliances and may your God be there to comfort you when you need it..

It ain't hurting me, but what about the cadet to whom you feel it us your duty to introduce God (possibily against parents wishes) too?

[AirAux]

Those may very well be the cadets that need it the most.  Or if they are strong in their non-believe, no harm done..  After all, the force is either strong with you or not, Padawa (spelling so wrong..)

[Fuzzy]

Those may very well be the cadets that need it the most.  Or if they are strong in their non-believe, no harm done..  After all, the force is either strong with you or not, Padawa (spelling so wrong..)

We don't need anything. And you don't seem to know anything.

We come to seniors for leadership. Not Faith. Do not betray our trust by attempted conversion.

[raivo]

And believe it or not, I feel it is my duty as a Christian to at least allow the cadets to be introduced to God in some fashion.

I'm having fun imaging the heart attack I'd give the SJA/EO offices if I said that in the RM.

[lordmonar]

...but I do have a philosophical objection to injecting religion into every aspect of life...

Just to point out, religion is a belief system that you are supposed to integrate into every aspect of your life.  Those beliefs to those who believe them don't change because they walked through a certain door.

If my religion says, "Thou shalt not steal" I'm supposed to integrate that philosophy into my whole life.

The question becomes are those that pray before a meeting somehow infringe on your rights by doing so or is your right to not pray infringing on their right to?

I understand what you are saying....I said INJECT not integrate.

I got no problem with anyone giving thanks and asking for their god's blessing on their daily endeavors.....but does that require you to stand in front of the class and and force everyone to "bow your heads".

I know there is not an absolute right of freedom from annoyance......some religions just like some speech and some political ideas annoy me.....but I got to put up with that to enjoy my right to speech, religion and political thought.

But again it comes down to respect......CAP is not about religion....just like my job is not about religion.  I don't think many people would respond well if I started your church service by requiring and open ranks inspection.....so why must my open ranks inspection begin with a church service? 

If your faith requires you to say a prayer out loud before you begin any meeting then so be it....I will make that accommodation....but we as members of a community try to respect our neighbors.  Just as we would expect someone to hold down their noise....even thought it is their right to make it....we are not asking too much from the faithful to keep down their religious observances.

As for the "well we meet in their church...it's a price we got to pay"....I got to call the BS flag on that one!

We have to respect them...and I do...but they can't use the lure of a facility as a chance to gain converts....that would be just wrong and a violation of the intent of 36-1.

I respect that some believers feel it is their duty to "bring to word of god to the heathens".....but you can do that on your own time.....it is most certainly NOT part of the CAP program.

We got enough to do just getting through the program as printed in 52-16 we don't need to add to our problems.

[RADIOMAN015]

I will offer that many units meet at Churches, so until the agnostics and atheists can afford to furnish our digs, we are kinda destined to dance with the one that brung us.  And believe it or not, I feel it is my duty as a Christian to at least allow the cadets to be introduced to God in some fashion.  And for you non-believers, don't get your panties in a wad, because it ain't hurting nothin since you don't believe in the first place.  The world survived for a long time with everyone believing it was flat..  So allow us our dalliances and may your God be there to comfort you when you need it..

I guess I would have to wonder how many potential members didn't join units because CAP meetings are held at relgious facilities (and this implies some sort of sponsorship of that religion of the CAP unit) , were perhaps a better place to meet would be at schools, fire stations, community centers,  national guard armories, reserve training centers, or even at an airport FBO!!! 

Wings should really take a hard look at this and try to help units meet at non-religion facilities.     

As far as cadets & religion, I'd be careful in that area, because it is not CAP's duty as an organization to be talking religion to anyone    
RM

[A.Member]

I will offer that many units meet at Churches, so until the agnostics and atheists can afford to furnish our digs, we are kinda destined to dance with the one that brung us.  And believe it or not, I feel it is my duty as a Christian to at least allow the cadets to be introduced to God in some fashion.  And for you non-believers, don't get your panties in a wad, because it ain't hurting nothin since you don't believe in the first place.  The world survived for a long time with everyone believing it was flat..  So allow us our dalliances and may your God be there to comfort you when you need it..

Congratulations.  You are now the poster child for exactly why this shouldn't be done.