Opening prayer in CAP meetings?

[BrianH76]

During four years in the active Air Force, four years at a private military school, and two years in college ROTC, I never once recited the Pledge.  To me, the Pledge is a civilian activity and a bit out of place in a military-style cadet program.  I think the CAP cadet program should embrace its AF heritage and to me, the Pledge does not accomplish this.  YMMV of course.

Prayer in my unit came about to give the Chaplain something to do during the meeting.  It's always felt a little odd to hear talk about Jesus at a CAP meeting.  I imagine it would be a bit like my pastor talking about O-rides and SAREXs from the pulpit on Sunday.

[Hawk200]

I dropped all 5 lbs of the "Book of Maxwell" on the table in front of him, said "here's our up-to-date reg set.  Please show me the requirement to say the pledge at the beginning of each meeting.."

"Book of Maxwell". I like that, mind if I borrow it?

He was unable.

Most of the ones that claim that, usually can't. It's surprising how often you can actually safely assume that someone is absolutely wrong when they make the statement.

The ones that know what they're talking about say "It's in CAPR 00-0, Chapter X" (and sometimes go so far as sub para and line), or else they say "Let me check something real quick, I think I know where to find it".

I think we'd have a publications set larger than the Library of Congress if everything that someone ever said was in the regs, actually was.

[Major Lord]

I had an e-group mailing a few years back that had an article on "how to tell if you have a redneck SAR group" or words to that effect. One of the ways was " You overhear your Chaplain talking to critical incident survivors about hell" ! I wish I could find it again.

You guys are really atheists? Swear to god?

Major Lord

[Dracosbane]

Personally, I'm a Pastafarian.

Ramen.

[lordmonar]

Personally, I'm a Pastafarian.

Ramen.

Have you been touched by his noodlie goodness?

[tdepp]

You guys are really atheists? Swear to god?

Major Lord

Lord help us!  :angel:

[Nick]

The ones that know what they're talking about say "It's in CAPR 00-0, Chapter X" (and sometimes go so far as sub para and line)

Yeah ... and I catch hell for that one quite a bit.  Ask Stonewall.

[Pumbaa]

Well if I want to listen to a prayer I can go to church...

While I'm there I can watch everyone fight whether the choir should wear robes or not.

Just another variation of CAPtalk..

[sarflyer]

Todd,

Before I say this I'm not trying to pick a fight so don't take it that way.

You are absolutely wrong!

We are in the soul saving business in the cadet program.  I am on my third squadron command and I will tell you that the primary focus of my units has always been on saving kids who would have otherwise gone on to be very unproductive members of society.

The cadet program boiled down is to mold a 12 year old into a respectful, mature and successful adult.  And then give him opportunities to make decisions on what he might what to do with his life.  Character development is a very important part of that.  The Chaplain program are the best qualified people to do that program.

On top of that we are also in the body saving and aerospace educating business.  The organization would not survive without cadets.

We are all pussy footing around the subject.  The bottom line is we all have a right to believe the way we wish too.   If you don't want to be exposed to prayer in a CAP unit then join a unit that doesn't use or find another volunteer program to contribute too.  We are a country founded on the principal, "In God We Trust" and the latest stats are that 85% of American's believe in God.    If it really bothers you that much then move on.

That's my belief system.

[davidsinn]

Todd,

Before I say this I'm not trying to pick a fight so don't take it that way.

You are absolutely wrong!

We are in the soul saving business in the cadet program.  I am on my third squadron command and I will tell you that the primary focus of my units has always been on saving kids who would have otherwise gone on to be very unproductive members of society.

The cadet program boiled down is to mold a 12 year old into a respectful, mature and successful adult.  And then give him opportunities to make decisions on what he might what to do with his life.  Character development is a very important part of that.  The Chaplain program are the best qualified people to do that program.

On top of that we are also in the body saving and aerospace educating business.  The organization would not survive without cadets.

We are all pussy footing around the subject.  The bottom line is we all have a right to believe the way we wish too.   If you don't want to be exposed to prayer in a CAP unit then join a unit that doesn't use or find another volunteer program to contribute too.  We are a country founded on the principal, "In God We Trust" and the latest stats are that 85% of American's believe in God.    If it really bothers you that much then move on.

That's my belief system.

Again CD has zilch to do with religion. I can name a lot of "religious" people with no morals or character. I can name a few atheists that are the most upstanding people you'll ever meet. I can name dozens of immoral acts commited by religion and/or in the name of religion or god.

This is a secular organization not a religious one. You have no right to force your beliefs on another which is what you are saying. I'm not saying you can't believe what you want or do what you want on your own time, but once you hit the meeting time I should not be forced to have anything to do with your beliefs. Prayer and religion have a very minor role in CAP.

[vmstan]

We are a country founded on the principal, "In God We Trust" and the latest stats are that 85% of American's believe in God.    If it really bothers you that much then move on.

That's my belief system.

Actually we're a nation founded on the principal "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" ... The word God, creator, or reference to any other deity doesn't make it's way anywhere into the Constitution. While they're in the Declaration of Independence, and I respect the importance of that document, it has no legal foundation for our system of government.

"In God We Trust" didn't make it's way into our government officially until the 1950s, when we had to prove to those atheist commies that we were better than them because we had God on our side.

As for the 85% number you're quoting, respectfully Sir, which God are you referring to? The Christian God? The Jewish God? The Muslim God? The (Insert one of hundreds) God?

You can have any opinion you want, but you can't have your own facts. That's my belief system.

[Al Sayre]

My $0.02...

I'm not a religious person, probably pretty close to agnostic.  I had enough religion crammed down my throat as a kid to pretty much turn me off on all organized religions. However, most of my squadron members here in the "Bible belt" are at least nominally religious.  We have a chaplain who is a very nice guy who I'm proud to have in my squadron and as a friend. It does me no harm to stand quietly with my head bowed for 30-45 seconds while the chaplain asks for a general blessing of our activities.  If anyone objects, they are free to leave the room, or just stand quietly and respect the others' beliefs as I do.  If it makes the chaplain feel that he is doing his part, and makes the other members of the squadron feel better or safer in their activities  to have the chaplain give an invocation; then I have done my job as a commander in seeing to the overall welfare of my command. 

JMHO, YMMV, void where prohibited, etc.

[Major Lord]

We are a country founded on the principal, "In God We Trust" and the latest stats are that 85% of American's believe in God.    If it really bothers you that much then move on.

That's my belief system.

Actually we're a nation founded on the principal "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" ... The word God, creator, or reference to any other deity doesn't make it's way anywhere into the Constitution. While they're in the Declaration of Independence, and I respect the importance of that document, it has no legal foundation for our system of government.

"In God We Trust" didn't make it's way into our government officially until the 1950s, when we had to prove to those atheist commies that we were better than them because we had God on our side.

As for the 85% number you're quoting, respectfully Sir, which God are you referring to? The Christian God? The Jewish God? The Muslim God? The (Insert one of hundreds) God?

You can have any opinion you want, but you can't have your own facts. That's my belief system.

You have it a bit backwards. The Declaration states our foundation for establishing the Corporation of the United States, and declares that our unalienable rights are granted by the "creator" ( God or Nature, in the sense of the founding fathers) Absent a creator, the Natural Rights of Man do not exist, and the rights we enjoy are granted solely by Government. A view widely held by Marxists.

The 1st Amendment to the Constitution had the effect of binding Congress' hands ( chains they broke quite easily) to prevent them from creating a State Religion. (Another phrase not appearing in the Constitution is "separation of Church and State", although this was in the old Soviet Constitution) and the Bill of Rights was not created until March 4th,  1789, quite some time after the acceptance of the initial foundational laws. Congress now considers the Constitution to consist of a set of guidelines, rather than a binding set of laws. I am afraid that the Constitution is written in language so clear, that only a lawyer could misunderstand it.....

I also agree that I don't want any CAP mandatory prayer or religious practices, but I respect the rights of the individual here to practice them as they please, right up until the time they interfere with my rights. Islam requires its members to convert, subjugate, or kill unbelievers for instance, a practice I will take a firm moral stand against......

Major Lord

[DogCollar]

Oh boy....

Ok, I think we have answered the original poster's question.  It might be best to turn our attention to something less controversial...I know...let's talk about uniforms!!!

[tdepp]

Todd,

Before I say this I'm not trying to pick a fight so don't take it that way.

You are absolutely wrong!

We are in the soul saving business in the cadet program.  I am on my third squadron command and I will tell you that the primary focus of my units has always been on saving kids who would have otherwise gone on to be very unproductive members of society.

The cadet program boiled down is to mold a 12 year old into a respectful, mature and successful adult.  And then give him opportunities to make decisions on what he might what to do with his life.  Character development is a very important part of that.  The Chaplain program are the best qualified people to do that program.

On top of that we are also in the body saving and aerospace educating business.  The organization would not survive without cadets.

We are all pussy footing around the subject.  The bottom line is we all have a right to believe the way we wish too.   If you don't want to be exposed to prayer in a CAP unit then join a unit that doesn't use or find another volunteer program to contribute too.  We are a country founded on the principal, "In God We Trust" and the latest stats are that 85% of American's believe in God.    If it really bothers you that much then move on.

That's my belief system.

SAR:

I think you may have misread my earlier post or I wasn't clear enough in my writing. While I myself do not think religion should have any part of our organization, it does.  And it will.  And I accept that.  And I understand the role of our Chaplains.  None of these are deal breakers for me.  I greatly enjoy being a CAP member and believe our organization does a lot of good for a lot of people.

And I agree with you that the cadet program is important because we do "save" a number of kids.  While I am not much involved directly in our cadet programming, I have taken a couple Cadets under my wing to train and mentor them.  But CAP "saves" them by giving them the tools of discipline, achievement, education, role models, and good decision making.  I don't think it is about converting them to Christianity or any other religion. 

The USAF is an organization filled with people of different ethnicities and religious beliefs.  So is the CAP.  We reflect the diversity of America.  We don't care what color or religion a person is when we go out and try and find them.  We have to all practice tolerance and respect.

And as to comment about the Muslims killing non-believers from another commenter, that's just wrong.  While some radical Muslims might feel that way, most Muslims respect and in fact embrace most of what Jews and Christians believe.  The three religions are "people of the book."  Jesus, Moses, and Mary are also prophets, along with Mohammed.  I have known many Muslims and have never, ever been approached to convert or been denounced for being a non-Muslim or non-believer. 

Kids, I think we've crossed a line.  Never discuss politics, religion, or another person's spouse in polite company.  You're just asking for trouble.   

[vmstan]

Islam requires its members to convert, subjugate, or kill unbelievers for instance, a practice I will take a firm moral stand against......

Wow, I guess I better watch my back when I'm around my Muslim friends. 

[JayT]

Islam requires its members to convert, subjugate, or kill unbelievers for instance, a practice I will take a firm moral stand against......

Wow, I guess I better watch my back when I'm around my Muslim friends. 

I do believe the Majors tongue is planted firmly in cheek.

The problem for me, from the original post, is that it seemed the prayer was said in formation. You don't really have the option to leave then, do you?

The padre's do good work, and althrough I'm not religious, I more then once have found myself talking to the hospital reverend or another commands chaplin. They're an invaluable assest to the emergency service.

The situation in the OP seems to be a case of an officer trying to carry on th duties of a dear friend. While the sprite is in the right place, the execution may be poorly done.

[AirAux]

Part of the problem is, with the political correctness of our times, we deny the truth.  Truth is that almost all Christian religions request their members to spread the Truth.  Evangelize is a duty to many.  I have also read a poll noting that 85% of Americans consider themselves to be Christians..  Therefore, must the 15% scream tolerance of their non-beliefs while quieting the 85%??  Political correctness has about run it's course in this country and I predict we will see the tide turn shortly..  A well known Jew recently said that if it weren't for the tolerance of the Christians, there would be no Jews left anywhere.  Christianity's tolerance for others has been considered a weakness to some.  If one would like to see where morality is without a God, one should watch the movie "Time Changers" to get an idea.  Morality didn't spring from the waters, it came from something bigger and better than each of us.  To try to have morality without admitting so is basically impossible.  We just don't have it inside of us to reach that level without the faith in something larger..  JMHO, flame suit on.. man the guns and [darn] the torpedoes..         

[JayT]

Don't take this the wrong way, but just because "85%" of Americans believe in God doesn't make them evangelical Christians. I don't know what I believe in, and it doesn't affect my daily life one bit. I go, I go my job, I try to be a good person, and if that's not 'enough,' then so be it.

[Eclipse]

Therefore, must the 15% scream tolerance of their non-beliefs while quieting the 85%??

Yes.  That's kinda the point of the constitution...