Opening prayer in CAP meetings?

[Chappie]

The Coast Guard Auxiliary does not have a chaplain service.

The CG Aux has tried a prototype chaplain service at least twice in the last ten years. Each test was run in 2 or 3 districts. And each test was a failure. It seems that a not insignificant number of the chaplains could not stop proselytizing and did not 'get' the whole non-sectarian thing.
<Snip>

The Coast Guard Aux has discussed with senior leadership in the CAP Chaplain Corps on a couple of occassions in recent years about the model on which to base a similar program.  The problem that exists is that the Coast Guard does not have a Chaplaincy program per se...they utilize Navy Chaplains.  Only the USAF and CAP have a working agreement with a Chaplain Corps that dates back to 1950.

[SarDragon]

Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock. 

[Major Carrales]

Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock. 

Dave,
Couldn't you move the hands forward on this clock?

[SarDragon]

Sorry, I spent about 20 minutes looking for a good animated clock smiley, and came up with nothing. I've lost my link to a site with some really kool smileys.

[a2capt]

A softball league also has it's schedule generally ahead of itself, and probably even months out. They have probably been to these places before, their attention is only needed for certain parts of the day, and they probably even schedule themselves cooperatively around that need.

CAP does not know where it' s missions are going to be, who's going to be there, (in theory), what resources are going to be available, etc.

Being self sufficient makes us all the more flexible. We can provide for our members needs, and to the needs of the subjects related to our activities.

[High Speed Low Drag]

During WWII, the USAAC provided the cahplains at the CAP Bases.  After the war, in 1950, CAP formed its own chaplain service.  It is now recognized to be an intergral part of the USAF Chaplin Corps operations.  Like other subjects, CAP Chaplains are a part of our heritage.

Softball Leagues don't operate 24/7, 365 days a year.  Leagues are a short-lived existance, unlike CAP.  Comparing a softball league to CAP is like comparing a El Camino with a tractor-trailer.

[sarmed1]

There have been some generalizations about the Chaplin Corps in the thread but overall I think the issue is more with non-chaplin members who feel they must"... save the heathen masses" with thier particular brand of religion.  (I know I am over exagerating a little)  The Chaplins know (but dont have to like it) that they need to be respectful of other relegious views and try and keep their activite as non offensive (ie tolerant to) other reliegious beliefs; my personal experience there has been pretty good (I had a military chaplin tell me on the side how he dislikes having to minister to some of the more heathen relegions...like Mormans and Druids..his words not mine)  Individual members tend to be less tolerant

Overall Chaplins serve the program well (or any program) they are there for those that want/need relegious guidance and yet do well with those that need the same help, guidance or shoulder to cry on without the need for a particular diety to have been involved.

mk

[C/MSgt Lunsford]

If it would keep someone from joining, then perhaps that person isn't serious enough about being a member in the first place.

Couldn't agree more. If someone is offended or driven away from Civil Air Patrol because of a Prayer, then what are they doing joining/holding membership in Civil Air Patrol?

Moral Leadership (Character Developement) Lessons have religious discussion in some of the lessons.

This country was created with Religious Morals.

The Pledge of Allegiance has God in it, it has yet to be removed for 40+ years, so it must not offend that much.

If potential Cadets or current Cadets have any problems with hearing Religious Discussion or Prayer, then I find that they do not hold the high maturity level that Civil Air Patrol demands as an Organization and Auxiliary of the United States Air Force.

[Fuzzy]

Hmmm.... I bet some at that little engineering school in the Rockies would agree with you. Well they used to go there anyway...

[sarmed1]

If someone is offended or driven away from Civil Air Patrol because of a Prayer, then what are they doing joining/holding membership in Civil Air Patrol?

Did you miss the previous 8 pages of discussion?!  CAP isnt a religious organization.....period.  (ie its not a church, or a faith based entity or on a general level sponsored by a relegious entity)

Moral leadeship is not supposed to be faith specific (it happens that most good religious practices center around good moral and ethical decision making)

Just like anywhere else there are some extreme religious off shoot groups out there (ie Branch Davidians);  Imagine you as an outsider walked into a CAP meeting (ie a bunch of youth being indoctrinated to military a lifestyle) and then what appears to you (or your parents) a lot of religious preaching-prayer in the begining, prayer at the end, a discussion of how to live your life based on the teachings of the Bible and then someone asks you what church do you go to and then tells you to make you a better person they will introduce you to Christ at their congregation down the road)....it could give you the wrong idea and you might have second thoughts about joining.  It has nothing to do with maturity or tolerance.


mk

[Major Carrales]

If someone is offended or driven away from Civil Air Patrol because of a Prayer, then what are they doing joining/holding membership in Civil Air Patrol?

Did you miss the previous 8 pages of discussion?!  CAP isnt a religious organization.....period.  (ie its not a church, or a faith based entity or on a general level sponsored by a relegious entity)

Moral leadeship is not supposed to be faith specific (it happens that most good religious practices center around good moral and ethical decision making)

Just like anywhere else there are some extreme religious off shoot groups out there (ie Branch Davidians);  Imagine you as an outsider walked into a CAP meeting (ie a bunch of youth being indoctrinated to military a lifestyle) and then what appears to you (or your parents) a lot of religious preaching-prayer in the begining, prayer at the end, a discussion of how to live your life based on the teachings of the Bible and then someone asks you what church do you go to and then tells you to make you a better person they will introduce you to Christ at their congregation down the road)....it could give you the wrong idea and you might have second thoughts about joining.  It has nothing to do with maturity or tolerance.


mk

Speaking of reading posts, where was it mentioned anywhere that people were turing CAP into a religious organization.  All that was mentioned was an opening prayer or moment of silence.  No one suggested constant religious overtones or conversion classes or anything like that.

I say this to try to keep this discussion real.  Mostly because I think this thread is about three such posts away from starting a RELIGIOUS WAR, Believers vs Non-Believers. 

People have tried to keep this thread grounded in Constituational concepts and secular realisms, but there are some that just want to "go there."  I say this after reading them all objectively with only the before mentioned ideas of Constitutionalism in mind.  The Constitution supports neither side, it neither limits prayer nor supports it.  Due to the nature of how it is written, the two sides could quote the 1st Amendment in out of context forever and get no where by an argument.   Reading both sides of the phrase proves my point.  The invocation/moment of silence is not Unconstitutional, open conversion attempts (by any faith) are.  Restricting people's desire to pray is unconstitutional, refraining from doing so is not.

If I were a moderator here I would have locked this after the first page.  Religion and Politics, I assumed, were off the menu of palatable topics here...yet, this abomination has been allowed to live well past its usefulness and, what more, the desired to get into these agendistic (both sides) discussions has shown a brna dof intolerance (on both sides) that has no place in CAP.

[C/MSgt Lunsford]

If someone is offended or driven away from Civil Air Patrol because of a Prayer, then what are they doing joining/holding membership in Civil Air Patrol?

Did you miss the previous 8 pages of discussion?!  CAP isn't a religious organization.....period.  (ie its not a church, or a faith based entity or on a general level sponsored by a religious entity)

Moral leadership is not supposed to be faith specific (it happens that most good religious practices center around good moral and ethical decision making)

Just like anywhere else there are some extreme religious off shoot groups out there (ie Branch Davidians);  Imagine you as an outsider walked into a CAP meeting (ie a bunch of youth being indoctrinated to military a lifestyle) and then what appears to you (or your parents) a lot of religious preaching-prayer in the beginning, prayer at the end, a discussion of how to live your life based on the teachings of the Bible and then someone asks you what church do you go to and then tells you to make you a better person they will introduce you to Christ at their congregation down the road)....it could give you the wrong idea and you might have second thoughts about joining.  It has nothing to do with maturity or tolerance.


Mk

Now. I didn't say that Civil Air Patrol was a Religious Organization. Of coarse it will never be. But just like the Armed Forces itself, there are Religious Prayer and Reference to Religion many times. In my Moral Leadership Discussions we have a Chain of Command Lesson and we always refer to God as the "Top Dog".

I don't see anything wrong with that, and if someone cannot handle that (in maturity) then what are they doing in Civil Air Patrol.

PS - Yes I did miss the previous 8 pages of discussion (Mind filling me in?)

[Pylon]

For those suggesting that this thread be closed down, the topic of the appropriateness of an opening prayer at CAP meetings is both relevant to CAP and obviously has produced some strong opinions.  There is value to the Civil Air Patrol leader in discussing this.  Simply because the topic is uncomfortable for some, or because there are diametrically opposed viewpoints here, doesn't mean that the thread should be shut down.  I would suggest that good leaders don't avoid difficult and sensitive topics of discussion to instead chat about superficial topics like uniforms.

To clarify, the discussion isn't about religion -- it's about the appropriateness of prayer at Civil Air Patrol meetings.  Understand that you are not likely to change many peoples' viewpoints through your arguments - especially those with deep-seated opinions on the topic.  Keep it on topic and keep the discussion appropriate and professional and there won't be any issues.

[Major Carrales]

To clarify, the discussion isn't about religion -- it's about the appropriateness of prayer at Civil Air Patrol meetings.  Understand that you are not likely to change many peoples' viewpoints through your arguments - especially those with deep-seated opinions on the topic.  Keep it on topic and keep the discussion appropriate and professional and there won't be any issues.

On the contrary, an objective reading of the full thread shows that it is very much about religion.  It would follow that if a person is talking about "prayer," the matter is that of religion and the Chaplain Corps (as was suggested to rid CAP of one).

If this thread is of the type where people are "not going to change people's view point," why keep it going?  Entertainment?

Politics and Religion should not be discussed here.  There are countless other places where that can be done.   What's more, everything on both sides and the middle has already been said.

Good leaders don't avoid sensative questions, but they do those that have no answer and create ill will and division.  That is what is happening in this thread.   Good leaders look for "solutions," not create unending debate on an issue.   

If you can solve any of these problems mentioned in this thread, your place is not in CAP first, but rather in Northen Ireland, the Middle East or Chechnya and then in Stockholm accepting a Nobel Peace Prize.  Debating this here is fruitless.

Close it down.

[Major Lord]

Sparky,

The paradox of your argument is that you are arguing for intolerance of intolerance.....Which makes your position.......intolerant! Further, you have tried to suppress the free expression of ideas by cutting off the discussion! Again, undermining what has been an interesting discussion, about a field of great interest to CAP members. I submit that a private board such as this is precisely the venue for this kind of discussion, as opposed to a CAP meeting for instance. I have learned from this board and from the Poll, that the vast majority of members value the Chaplaincy, and the number of people who seem to strenuously object are noticeable more from  their stridency then their numbers. CAP is not an amoral organization. It would hard to be both benevolent (as our charter mandates) and indifferent to the values we generally share. A pointed discussion of the Chaplaincy should reinforce the value of the Chaplaincy, which I believe in this case, it has. (look at the Poll numbers) "Tolerance"is frequently touted as a characteristic that is intrinsically valuable and good. The ethical trap of worshiping tolerance is that tolerance can in some cases, merely be a politically-correct, code-word for moral cowardice. The examination of the things we do and the reasons we do them is appropriate, as long as the discussion remains free of personal attacks, and holds to reason.

Major Lord

ps. How did a guy named "Carrales" get a nickname like "Sparky" instead of the more obvious "Okay"?

[Major Carrales]

I am finished here.  Have at each other and the beliefs of others, condemed to debate this topic until it reaches the level of being unbecoming or simply falls into the cyper-aether.

I suppose, we can then discuss political issues since this forum is public and the proper place.  Topics like "Is the Obama Administration good for CAP?" and  "Do Republicans feel CAP is a waste of time and money?"  By the arguments posted here on the subject of Religion, I assume that such topics are fair game by tolken of the rationale that has prevailed here today. 

I will not reply publically to this thread...

[Gunner C]

(I had a military chaplin tell me on the side how he dislikes having to minister to some of the more heathen relegions...like Mormans and Druids..his words not mine)  Individual members tend to be less tolerant

I've seen/heard nearly the exact thing from chaplains (RM and CAP) for the last 35 years far too often to be a coincidence.  They claim to be educated men of God, but too many of them (not all) are just ignorant bigots.  If they knew what they were talking about, they wouldn't make statements like that.

CAP has always been in the forefront with treating people with equality - blacks and women were treated equally in CAP long before they were in the RM.  The chaplains haven't caught up.

How about that chaplain saying something like this:

"I dislike having to minister to some of the more heathen religions . . . like Jews and Druids." 

How is that different?  Is that worse?  Not really - a bigot is a bigot. 

[Pumbaa]

There have been some generalizations about the Chaplin Corps...non-chaplin members w... little)  The Chaplins know (but ...a military chaplin tell ...Overall Chaplins serve...
mk
emphasis added

FYI this is a Chaplin.. Spell check is your friend!