Opening prayer in CAP meetings?

[simon]

Our squadron meeting tonight commenced with the new deputy commander asking us to "Please, bow your heads" and saying a prayer to "Our father".

I was surprised. It was a first in my two years at CAP.

Is this common at CAP meetings?

I am concerned that this will drive new members away.

Our members are, no offence, older. I am getting there myself. But I think the squadron needs younger people who are going to drive the organization forward and I am not so sure that many of these people are comfortable with the religion aspect of CAP if it is actively practiced during the meetings.

My view is that the younger demographic embraces the major CAP functions, probably doesn't object to the chaplaincy part of the organization but feels awkward being asked to participate in group prayer.

Our commander has just retired his tenure. New commander. New deputy. I really like all of them. But I am just wondering whether CAP members think this new meeting format is a good idea or not.

I have read lots of postings on CAP Talk about this. I see many conflicting and misguided views. Things like "No, you can't do that". Then when I actually dug up and read CAP265-4 (E) from 1994, I read:

"Specific duties. As your unit's religious leader, you are responsible for fulfilling the twelve Core Processes listed in paragraph 1-1. Generally, chaplains do so by: a) Opening unit meetings with prayer."

and:

"b. Personally interviewing each new member and maintaining a confidential CAP Form 48, Religious Interview Guide."

and:

"c. Actively encouraging regular church or synagogue attendance by unit members."

That document was 32 pages. Then I pulled up the 2010 version. It had been reduced to 11 pages. All the stuff above had gone. But in there was the following:

"When working under the guidance of a chaplain, CAP members may provide non-clergy support for chaplain professional ministry.  CAP members may offer non-denominational prayers in the absence of a unit chaplain."

[DogCollar]

Hi Simon,

I don't believe the intent of the 265-4(E) was to mandate prayer as an opening for meetings.  I wouldn't want to spring it on a squadron that doesn't have that kind of history without some concerted education and consensus building.

The RIG is done so that it is a conversation between Chaplain and member and is not used to judge or proselytize a members faith or lack thereof.

The encouragement to regular attendance of Church or Synagogue or Mosque or Temple, is for people who have identified to the chaplain that they are members of a particular faith group.  It would be inappropriate, in my opinion, for a chaplain to encourage faith participation for an "unaffiliated" member, unless that member is asking for advice on that particular subject.

The actions listed for a chaplain to fulfill the 12 Core Processes are "suggestive" rather than "mandated" (with exception to the RIG).

My questions for you are:

1.  Do you have a squadron chaplain?
2.  Is the squadron chaplain officially a part of the CAP Chaplain Corps?  I have noticed that a few squadrons have had the practice of a local clergy person coming in to be a part of meetings, performing "official" chaplain duties, but who have not gone through channels of having that person go through the process of becoming a CAP Chaplain.  This practice raises significant issues for the organization.
3.  What is the commanders intent of instituting the  practice?
4.  Was the Wing Chaplain consulted?
5.  Are you planning to raise this as an issue to your squadron commander?

[Rotorhead]

An invocation is common at many public gatherings, from meetings to NASCAR races.

If it would keep someone from joining, then perhaps that person isn't serious enough about being a member in the first place.

My previous unit, a senior squadron, does an invocation every meeting and is having trouble keeping up with the numbers of people who want to join.

[Pylon]

Does the Air Force open their work day or the Air Guard commence their UTAs/drill weekends with an invocation?

[nesagsar]

If it would keep someone from joining, then perhaps that person isn't serious enough about being a member in the first place.

It wouldnt stop me from joining but I would be looking for a different squadron rather than that one.

[disamuel]

Maybe this is off topic, but wouldn't opening the meeting with the Pledge of Allegiance be more appropriate?

[BrianH76]

Our squadron meeting tonight commenced with the new deputy commander asking us to "Please, bow your heads" and saying a prayer to "Our father".

I was surprised. It was a first in my two years at CAP.

Is this common at CAP meetings?

We do an opening prayer in my unit too, which doesn't necessarily bother me.  However, lately, the Chaplain has started asking for prayer requests, which to me crosses into an unacceptable level of religiosity.  It's not that I'm anti-religion; I'm not.  I just find it inappropriate for a CAP meeting.

Maybe this is off topic, but wouldn't opening the meeting with the Pledge of Allegiance be more appropriate?

As a DCC, I really don't like the pledge.  During my time in the military, I never once said the pledge.  As a military cadet program with an Air Force heritage, I find an opening formation with a retreat ceremony to be a more appropriate way to start meetings and honor the flag.

[A.Member]

Opening prayer/invocation:  NO!

Opening formation:  YES!

We are not a church.  An invocation as part of a formal dinner is one thing, doing it at the start of every meeting is something all together different.

[dwb]

I have never been in a squadron that opens with a prayer.  Invocations/Benedictions are common at formal dinners I've been to, but not regular squadron meetings.

I'm of the belief that CAP should operate in a secular fashion.  Religious/spiritual needs should certainly be accommodated, but not a featured part of our training and operations.

[Fubar]

My SLS course included an hour long church service by one of our chaplains. I was a bit surprised to say the least.

[Eclipse]

Any prayer that is said needs to be 100% non-secular and generalized, which in many cases causes so much heartburn as to end the issue with that sentence.

I agreee - formation yes, prayer, no.

My SLS course included an hour long church service by one of our chaplains. I was a bit surprised to say the least.

As part of the curriculum or an optional service?  The former doesn't fly.

[Al Sayre]

We generally open the indoor portion of our meetings with the Pledge of Allegiance, the Cadet Oath, and if the Chaplain is present an invocation.  Our Chaplain is very good at keeping it nondenominational, short, and to the point.  We have members from several different faiths including Judaism, and no one seems to mind.

[Fubar]

As part of the curriculum or an optional service?  The former doesn't fly.

Part of the curriculum. It was even on the agenda, so I asked about it ahead of time and was told it would be more of a moral leadership discussion. Instead, it was speech on how we all needed to be more religious in all aspects of our lives.

[Nick]

Does the Air Force open their work day or the Air Guard commence their UTAs/drill weekends with an invocation?

It does when the Chaplain stops by for a unit visit.

Maybe this is off topic, but wouldn't opening the meeting with the Pledge of Allegiance be more appropriate?

Incidentally ... my unit was doing the pledge of allegiance when I transferred, and I never brought up the point from CAPP 151 that says "When in a military-style uniform, stand at attention and remain silent... The pledge is not normally recited when CAP members are in formation. Reciting the pledge when in military-style uniform, let alone when assembled in a formation, is somewhat redundant – the uniform and all the other trappings of national service are themselves symbols of a special devotion to America."

Assuming 80% of the unit is in military-style uniform, it'd be a pretty quiet pledge of allegiance following that guidance.

[Eclipse]

As part of the curriculum or an optional service?  The former doesn't fly.

Part of the curriculum. It was even on the agenda, so I asked about it ahead of time and was told it would be more of a moral leadership discussion. Instead, it was speech on how we all needed to be more religious in all aspects of our lives.

One of many reasons SLS/CLC instructors and curriculum need to be vetted by Wing, etc. 

[Chappie]

I have read lots of postings on CAP Talk about this. I see many conflicting and misguided views. Things like "No, you can't do that". Then when I actually dug up and read CAP265-4 (E) from 1994, I read:

"Specific duties. As your unit's religious leader, you are responsible for fulfilling the twelve Core Processes listed in paragraph 1-1. Generally, chaplains do so by: a) Opening unit meetings with prayer."

and:

"b. Personally interviewing each new member and maintaining a confidential CAP Form 48, Religious Interview Guide."

and:

"c. Actively encouraging regular church or synagogue attendance by unit members."

That document was 32 pages. Then I pulled up the 2010 version. It had been reduced to 11 pages. All the stuff above had gone. But in there was the following:

"When working under the guidance of a chaplain, CAP members may provide non-clergy support for chaplain professional ministry.  CAP members may offer non-denominational prayers in the absence of a unit chaplain."

Can you point me to the 2010 document you referred to???  I am not aware that there is a 2010 version available...I do know that the CAPP 265-4 (1994) is currently being updated and has not been released.  So I am a bit confused as to what document you are referring to and where you found it.   I do know that the 12 processes will be 5 processes -- reflecting the same processes of the USAF Chaplain Corps.

[Chappie]

As part of the curriculum or an optional service?  The former doesn't fly.

Part of the curriculum. It was even on the agenda, so I asked about it ahead of time and was told it would be more of a moral leadership discussion. Instead, it was speech on how we all needed to be more religious in all aspects of our lives.

One of many reasons SLS/CLC instructors and curriculum need to be vetted by Wing, etc.

I have conducted an optional worship service at SLS/CLC -- however, as part of the curriculum in the past the session was limited to the role of the Chaplain/CDI and the familiarization of the Character Development program.

When I served as a Squadron Chaplain -- and when I visit units...I have been requested to conclude the meeting with a benediction.  In the 14 years that I have served as a CAP chaplain and offered prayer at Squadron, Group, Wing, Region and National activities...I have yet to receive a complaint or a concern raised regarding the content of the prayer(s) offered.  A good resource is the Book of Prayers that was published by the USAF Chaplain Corps many years ago and was made available through CAPMart.  That resource is available on the PCR Chaplain Corps web-site: http://hc.pcr.cap.gov/downloads/CAP_Book_of_Prayers.pdf

[vmstan]

As one of the only atheists in my squadron's foxhole, filling out the CAP Form 48, Religious Interview Guide on one of my first nights was a bit interesting. "None... N/A... No... None... None... No" etc. Handed it back to the Chaplin who looked at it, nodded his head and said "OK, thanks!" Never heard anything about it after that.

That said, we do an invocation at the beginning of our meetings, and it irritates me, but not enough to worry about it. When we're in formation and everyone bows their heads, I just stand and look straight ahead. 99% of the time it's something along the lines of "keep us safe in our training, help us in our testing, blah blah blah" and is pretty non-dom. But, we're also meeting in a church right now but thankfully are looking for somewhere else to go. When I was in Boy Scouts as a teenager, it was a lot more pronounced and integrated.

I guess I'm tolerant enough not to care, until someone tries to force it on me.

[lordmonar]

Well.....as an atheist....I don't have much time for chaplains.

BUT....I am not everybody....and everybody is not me.....I understand what chaplains do and know that there are CAP members who need/want the services that they provide.

I have no problem with a prayer before a meeting.....I remain silent and respect my fellow members' right to worship as they see fit.

Is this really and issue?  No....so long as the prayer is short, middle of the road and does not cross that line into preaching.

[Hawk200]

We do an opening prayer in my unit too, which doesn't necessarily bother me.  However, lately, the Chaplain has started asking for prayer requests, which to me crosses into an unacceptable level of religiosity.  It's not that I'm anti-religion; I'm not.  I just find it inappropriate for a CAP meeting.

I am a regular church goer, and don't have a problem with an invocation either. But prayer requests are not appropriate. If someone has one, they can seek out the chaplain when time becomes available. It doesn't need to be addressed for all attendees of the meeting. And not everyone wants to bring up requests for all attending either.