What would you like to see done for Civil Air Patrol uniforms?

[TheSkyHornet]

Something ignored in the "We don't need it" argument is the demonstrable fact that at least 50% of the adult membership,
some of the most active members and the ones running much of the organizaiton, are not eligible to wear the USAF-Style
Service uniform, which leaves them with no alternative to be compared to their peers, including now being presented
decorations they aren't even allowed to wear.

Further to this many in that 50%+ wear blues anyway for "reasons".

You can't make an argument that the blues are "important" to affinity, recruiting, and appearance, and then deny those
same benefits to the very members holding up the corners, and not expect to be accused of hypocritical attitudes.

The uniform is either important, or it isn't.

^ All of this.

[Eclipse]

The Leadership Award will be eliminated as it is redundant to the Technician Badges also awarded. I guess this award made sense when not every Technician Rating had a corresponding Badge but as they all do now it's just extra bling.

Not all Specialty tracks have badges.

By adopting this PDEA system you will eliminate six ribbons/medals and would shorten the maximum ribbon rack number by two rows. Which should look less "busy" on the uniform.

Who's uniform?  Not all members earn anything other then the PD awards over the course of their CAP careers.

[Fubar]

Some people also point out that creating a service coat for the grey corporate (aviator) uniform would cost members extra money.  It seems like very few members would end up being forced to buy both... because the standards make it pretty clear which uniform a member should buy.  Depending on where each member falls in regards to height & weight / grooming standards... they should plan to purchase either the U.S. A. F. style blue service uniform, or the grey/white corporate aviator style service uniform.

If I'm reading you correctly here, you're stating the standards make it pretty clear that members decide which uniform they should buy falls directly on where they fall upon the height/weight chart? This gives the USAF-style uniform a higher presence over the corporate uniform for those capable of wearing both. If that's what you're saying, I'm afraid I don't agree.

[PHall]

A real service jacket for the corporate uniforms, not a security guard jacket.

Overall I agree with the idea of an actual service coat for the grey corporate (aviator) uniform.  A number of people over the years... have sometimes made the claim that it isn't absolutely necessary... since as a "corporate" uniform, it is not a military uniform... and therefore doesn't "need" a jacket.

My response to that is... take a look at the great number of corporations, airlines, and other pilot / aviation related organizations in the civilian world... and many of their pilots/personnel can be seen often wearing pilot/aviator "service type" of coat.  It is completely acceptable in the civilian world as well... and there is no doubt that it sends the message to the public... that your organization values professionalism and high standards.

Some people also point out that creating a service coat for the grey corporate (aviator) uniform would cost members extra money.  It seems like very few members would end up being forced to buy both... because the standards make it pretty clear which uniform a member should buy.  Depending on where each member falls in regards to height & weight / grooming standards... they should plan to purchase either the U.S. A. F. style blue service uniform, or the grey/white corporate aviator style service uniform. 

There always might end up being a smaller number of members... who decide on their own to purchase both, but for the most part that's their own decision.  The vast majority of members will usually fall into one category or the other.  Below is an example (just an example) from the Polish Air Force... that shows that a grey aviator type uniform can definitely work (not to mention all the grey service coats that almost certainly can be bought from civilian/commercial sellers of aviation uniforms).

Something ignored in the "We don't need it" argument is the demonstrable fact that at least 50% of the adult membership,
some of the most active members and the ones running much of the organizaiton, are not eligible to wear the USAF-Style
Service uniform, which leaves them with no alternative to be compared to their peers, including now being presented
decorations they aren't even allowed to wear.

Further to this many in that 50%+ wear blues anyway for "reasons".

You can't make an argument that the blues are "important" to affinity, recruiting, and appearance, and then deny those
same benefits to the very members holding up the corners, and not expect to be accused of hypocritical attitudes.

The uniform is either important, or it isn't.

50% of the adults don't meet the height/weight standards? Gotta cite for that? Because that doesn't match what I see in my area.

[Shuman 14]

Who's uniform?  Not all members earn anything other then the PD awards over the course of their CAP careers.

And they still will earn PD Awards, it will just be one Medal/Ribbon now. Very much in line with the USAF and US Army NCO Professional Development Ribbons.

[Eclipse]

50% of the adults don't meet the height/weight standards? Gotta cite for that? Because that doesn't match what I see in my area.

Your "area" is California and you meet on a military base.

Most of the real CAP meets in the lounge of FBOs and goes to McDonald's for the after-meeting mixer.

All you need to do is look around at most activities, or spend a little time on Flicker, Smug Mug, and
Commercial Media.  It's easily 50%, and probably higher.

That's especially true when members acknowledge that the weight standards are a number, not a "feeling".

[CAPed Crusader]

Have our name tapes be Velcro so we don't have to sew them on, and once again, green boots are a desire, [or tan boots, anything but black]

[Eclipse]

Who's uniform?  Not all members earn anything other then the PD awards over the course of their CAP careers.

And they still will earn PD Awards, it will just be one Medal/Ribbon now. Very much in line with the USAF and US Army NCO Professional Development Ribbons.

And the reason again for reducing them is, exactly?  The average senior member has more then enough space for
the ribbons they will earn during a typical CAP career, even national staffers, and when space is an issue, short-stacking is allowed
and you can remove the more common ones.

Comparing CAP to other services in this regard doesn't work, if for no other reason then CAP doesn't offer the same kinds of opportunities
for decorations and service ribbons the various services do, not to mention that people who are monetarily compensated don't necessarily
need the same bling-level motivation as someone there on their own dime and time.

[PHall]

50% of the adults don't meet the height/weight standards? Gotta cite for that? Because that doesn't match what I see in my area.

Your "area" is California and you meet on a military base.

Most of the real CAP meets in the lounge of FBOs and goes to McDonald's for the after-meeting mixer.

All you need to do is look around at most activities, or spend a little time on Flicker, Smug Mug, and
Commercial Media.  It's easily 50%, and probably higher.

That's especially true when members acknowledge that the weight standards are a number, not a "feeling".

A "military" base that has exactly 6 Active Duty Navy personnel and a thousand or so Department of the Navy civilians and contractors.
Not exactly a target rich environment for seeing really fit people!

[Eclipse]

A "military" base that has exactly 6 Active Duty Navy personnel and a thousand or so Department of the Navy civilians and contractors.
Not exactly a target rich environment for seeing really fit people!

Fair enough.

With that said, you know I am correct, and if it turns out it's 48.76%, or 42.9647726256% the point stands.

[Shuman 14]

And the reason again for reducing them is, exactly?  The average senior member has more then enough space for
the ribbons they will earn during a typical CAP career, even national staffers, and when space is an issue, short-stacking is allowed
and you can remove the more common ones.

Comparing CAP to other services in this regard doesn't work, if for no other reason then CAP doesn't offer the same kinds of opportunities
for decorations and service ribbons the various services do, not to mention that people who are monetarily compensated don't necessarily
need the same bling-level motivation as someone there on their own dime and time.

Seriously? Do you read CAPTalk? Plenty of people are always on here complaining how they look like Third World Dictators and you ask why the need to reduce. (Roll Eyes)

As to saving money, you don't have to buy a new ribbon rack every time you complete an Education. If you know what you are doing, you might be able to reuse the same ribbon and just change/add devices.

You still get a frame-able certificate to hang on your "I love Me" wall, you still get a new medal at each level if you choice to buy one... what's the issue?

[PHall]

And the reason again for reducing them is, exactly?  The average senior member has more then enough space for
the ribbons they will earn during a typical CAP career, even national staffers, and when space is an issue, short-stacking is allowed
and you can remove the more common ones.

Comparing CAP to other services in this regard doesn't work, if for no other reason then CAP doesn't offer the same kinds of opportunities
for decorations and service ribbons the various services do, not to mention that people who are monetarily compensated don't necessarily
need the same bling-level motivation as someone there on their own dime and time.

Seriously? Do you read CAPTalk? Plenty of people are always on here complaining how they look like Third World Dictators and you ask why the need to reduce. (Roll Eyes)

As to saving money, you don't have to buy a new ribbon rack every time you complete an Education. If you know what you are doing, you might be able to reuse the same ribbon and just change/add devices.

You still get a frame-able certificate to hang on your "I love Me" wall, you still get a new medal at each level if you choice to buy one... what's the issue?

You do realize that the people who post here on CAP Talk are not your typical CAP member, right?

[Alaric]

And the reason again for reducing them is, exactly?  The average senior member has more then enough space for
the ribbons they will earn during a typical CAP career, even national staffers, and when space is an issue, short-stacking is allowed
and you can remove the more common ones.

Comparing CAP to other services in this regard doesn't work, if for no other reason then CAP doesn't offer the same kinds of opportunities
for decorations and service ribbons the various services do, not to mention that people who are monetarily compensated don't necessarily
need the same bling-level motivation as someone there on their own dime and time.

Seriously? Do you read CAPTalk? Plenty of people are always on here complaining how they look like Third World Dictators and you ask why the need to reduce. (Roll Eyes)

As to saving money, you don't have to buy a new ribbon rack every time you complete an Education. If you know what you are doing, you might be able to reuse the same ribbon and just change/add devices.

You still get a frame-able certificate to hang on your "I love Me" wall, you still get a new medal at each level if you choice to buy one... what's the issue?

I read CAPTalk and very few people are complaining about the Third World Dictator look.  Also, they can short stack if its an issue

[Luis R. Ramos]

From Shuman

As to saving money, you don't have to buy a new ribbon rack every time you complete an Education. If you know what you are doing, you might be able to reuse the same ribbon and just change/add devices.

Moot point. You are not obligated to buy one every time you complete an Education either. You choose to do so.

[jb512]

And the reason again for reducing them is, exactly?  The average senior member has more then enough space for
the ribbons they will earn during a typical CAP career, even national staffers, and when space is an issue, short-stacking is allowed
and you can remove the more common ones.

Comparing CAP to other services in this regard doesn't work, if for no other reason then CAP doesn't offer the same kinds of opportunities
for decorations and service ribbons the various services do, not to mention that people who are monetarily compensated don't necessarily
need the same bling-level motivation as someone there on their own dime and time.

Seriously? Do you read CAPTalk? Plenty of people are always on here complaining how they look like Third World Dictators and you ask why the need to reduce. (Roll Eyes)

As to saving money, you don't have to buy a new ribbon rack every time you complete an Education. If you know what you are doing, you might be able to reuse the same ribbon and just change/add devices.

You still get a frame-able certificate to hang on your "I love Me" wall, you still get a new medal at each level if you choice to buy one... what's the issue?

You do realize that the people who post here on CAP Talk are not your typical CAP member, right?

The typical CAP member usually lasts though their first 5 to 10 posts here before they are shamed away.

[Eclipse]

The typical CAP member usually lasts though their first 5 to 10 posts here before they are shamed away.

Shamed away?

[N6RVT]

Something ignored in the "We don't need it" argument is the demonstrable fact that at least 50% of the adult membership,
some of the most active members and the ones running much of the organizaiton, are not eligible to wear the USAF-Style
Service uniform, which leaves them with no alternative to be compared to their peers, including now being presented
decorations they aren't even allowed to wear.

Further to this many in that 50%+ wear blues anyway for "reasons".

You can't make an argument that the blues are "important" to affinity, recruiting, and appearance, and then deny those
same benefits to the very members holding up the corners, and not expect to be accused of hypocritical attitudes.

The uniform is either important, or it isn't.

^ All of this.

They actually came up with regulations to cover using civilian black tie for mess dress, presented it at a national board meeting - and it was never heard from again.  Fix that and the service coat issue and I would happily stop wearing USAF stuff - and I still meet US ARMY height & weight standards.

[Fubar]

They actually came up with regulations to cover using civilian black tie for mess dress, presented it at a national board meeting - and it was never heard from again.  Fix that and the service coat issue and I would happily stop wearing USAF stuff - and I still meet US ARMY height & weight standards.

Well that's the thing about the chain of command, just because your idea gets presented to the leadership doesn't mean they'll do anything with it. Sometimes the leadership won't agree with you or they decide there are more important matters to work on.

The competency of our leaders always seems to be judged on the criteria of how often they accept our ideas.

[Eclipse]

They actually came up with regulations to cover using civilian black tie for mess dress, presented it at a national board meeting - and it was never heard from again.  Fix that and the service coat issue and I would happily stop wearing USAF stuff - and I still meet US ARMY height & weight standards.

Well that's the thing about the chain of command, just because your idea gets presented to the leadership doesn't mean they'll do anything with it. Sometimes the leadership won't agree with you or they decide there are more important matters to work on.

The competency of our leaders always seems to be judged on the criteria of how often they accept our ideas.

Fair enough, however in a volunteer paradigm, the appearance of transparency and considering
new ideas is at least as important as actually considering them, doubly so when those opinions and
ideas are explicitly solicited, and then clearly ignored.

It's one thing to say "this is our track, lead or follow, but we go here", and another when you can't even be bothered
to review documents for spelling, grammar, and accuracy, which is the case with the last release of 39-1,
which was published broken, even though any number of members sent in the corrections, and has now sat for
over 4 years as-is with no indication of any upcoming fixes.

[CAPed Crusader]

Elimination of all USAF style uniforms for seniors. ALL OF THEM.
Adoption of USAF uniform by cadets within two years of USAF change.

Easy.

I disagree. I think having our senior wear USAF style uniforms are good especially in emergency situations, [SAR, disaster relief, etc.] That way wee all look like we are on the same team.